Paragon City is evil?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-28 15:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Shouldn't they ask the Rikti for food instead of guns then? Or maybe sell their weapons and buy food with the cash they get?
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Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
But when you listen to them they are still starving.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I guess the lack of teleporters is the reason why Superman, Wonder Woman, Power Girl, Batman and so on leave a trial of mass-murder behind them when they're fighiting evil.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
you do realize that teleporting people is a new development in CoH world... licensed hereos have been around for 40+ years so yeah... you're wrong.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If they're donated by the Rikti, then they could ask for food donations too |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Wait, who says they're spending money to get these weapons. Hell, where would the BUY them from even if they were?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Please, stop multi-posting.
All of that could have just been placed in a single message.
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If something's worth a reply, worth a little individual attention |
Originally Posted by VileTerror
Please, stop multi-posting.
All of that could have just been placed in a single message. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Actually that's wrong... The license isn't about how the heroes deal with the villains, but rather that they can handle themselves. It's for the "heroes" safety, not the villains.
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Not really since Arachnos first Attack Paragon City first, which cause the heroes to lose there powers, read Coh comic's by Top Cow call Hard Crash. The first Time Lord Recluse and the other Villains first Show up and don't forget them Attacking the The prison, The Zig and freeing all the bad guys there.
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ur doin it rong
That said, you make very good points. Recluse did depower all the heroes in Paragon in the hard crash storyline. And yet, the people of Paragon City were happier without super powered conflict exploding into their lives every day. Well, anyway, that didn't pan out for anybody. But I don't believe that, in the course of fighting for their lives, murdering Statesman, commiting suicide in order to ressurect him, and driving Recluse and his cronies away, that the FP stopped to gather any incriminating evidence of Recluse's attack. You and I know what happened, but it's not public knowlege.
If Countess Crey can keep spinning her wheels and getting away with it, then so can Recluse. Though I will concede the Countess her superior fashion sense.
It's the same for the Break Out. The Zig is not a very secure place, and with all those super powered inmates to account for, who can say exactly what happened on the day of any given escape? Nobody, conclusively.
Well, my villains could tell you, but they wouldn't.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
The lost are Mind controlled.
They are forced to work for the rikti.
They are homeless who are captured and brainwashed by the Rikti in the Sewer so they fight for them.
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Not really. They become part of the Rikti group mind and come to embrace different ideals in most cases. It's not mind control, just a radical alteration in perspective.
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Originally Posted by falloutsurvivor
The lost are Mind controlled.
They are forced to work for the rikti. They are homeless who are captured and brainwashed by the Rikti in the Sewer so they fight for them. |
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
Closer to brainwashing than mind control. They're as much forced to work for the Rikti as they are forced to have dinner out of a garbage bin. They make a choice . . . though there's not much in the way of alternatives. In either case, death is likely the only other option available to them.
And as he Zig provides food, shelter and a bed - we're actually doing them a favor by arresting them
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
That's a fairly large assumption. You ever been to prison, Golden Girl?
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No - and I don't intend to, ever |
Originally Posted by VileTerror
That's a fairly large assumption. You ever been to prison, Golden Girl?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Everything I've read, the Heroes are under the same limitations as the PPD. So obviously, killing willy nilly isn't what a PPD would do |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Actually that's wrong... The license isn't about how the heroes deal with the villains, but rather that they can handle themselves. It's for the "heroes" safety, not the villains.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Technically you can't kill Tyrant again. You can kill him again through time travel, but as far as your hero's storyline is concerned, he's dead. (Let's ignore helping a teammate kill him....there's really no way around that without removing any pretense at story resolution).|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And if you go the route I'm killing everyone, there really isn't a revolving door, I have to ask? You killed Tyrant once, why is he back from the same dimension as always.
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Characters do die in canon. If you have done Maxwell Christopher's arc, the original Nemesis is presumed dead for you. There is an arc from Crimson where you condemn a Malta agent to death. You kill Ms Liberty on the RSF (again, ignoring the fact that the RSF must be repeatable for gameplay reasons.) There are other arcs where an NPC gets killed...and yet when you run it again with an alt he is still alive.
At some point the game designers have to throw up their hands and decide that, in order to maintain a persistent world and yet allow some resolution to story arcs, each character's journey through the game must be self-contained.
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Originally Posted by VileTerror
As a counter, rian, think of it this way:
"I just got away with robbing a little old lady! Sure, I may have been burnt/punched/necro'd . . . but I got instant medical care, a lawyer who got me off the hook in no time, and I'm back on the street. I'MMA DO IT AGAIN!" If someone committed the crime in the first place, and had no lasting repercussions they're not about to change their tune because they felt a little* pain. |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Shouldn't they ask the Rikti for food instead of guns then? Or maybe sell their weapons and buy food with the cash they get?
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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You could say the same of New York City or any other major city in the wordl for that matter ...
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Originally Posted by NobleFox
Paragon City maintains huge, insane, massive statues en-masse in several cities, while people starve to death in King's Row. Considering the spread of useless vanity items versus social aid and growth programs.. it's _really_ hard not to think of Paragon City as exactly like the Rogue Isles, only with more tax dollars to abuse.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Actually, he just teleports away once he reaches 20-25% health.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Technically you can't kill Tyrant again. You can kill him again through time travel, but as far as your hero's storyline is concerned, he's dead. (Let's ignore helping a teammate kill him....there's really no way around that without removing any pretense at story resolution).
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
If I get the philosphies right, Paragon City is a typically flawed Democratic Republic (or similar). People elect leaders, there are social programs, there are laws designed to provide justice and equality.
The Rogue Isles is evolved anarchy. People have jobs and there are hospitals, but there is no Bill of Rights. There are no laws, only common sense rules like "Don't cross Arachnos" and "Don't pick fights with people that can beat you up." There are organizations, but no labor unions or means of legal recourse against an employer. There are police, but they have no internal or peer review, they do what they want how they want and keep up appearances just enought to keep Arachnos from replacing them. I doubt that the Rogue Isles hold elections, and their idea of a social program is likely feeding the homeless to the Arachnoids.
The difference between Paragon and the Rogue Isles is like night and day, as it should be: the Rogue Isles are a dystopia, a cautionary tale: "this is what happens when you let the (nicer) bad guys win."
Of course, the Rogue Isles are not a total dystopia, just as PC is not a total utopia.
In Paragon City, white collar criminals like Countess Crey can hide behind the law for years at a time.
In the Rogue Isles, it doesn't matter if you toe the line or not; when someone with greater power wants what you have they will come and take it; there are no (effective) laws to hide behind.
Feeding all of the lawyers to the Arachnoids (but not the Snakes; common courtesy) is probably the first thing Recluse did.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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This is a pretty concise summation, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
If I get the philosphies right, Paragon City is a typically flawed Democratic Republic (or similar). People elect leaders, there are social programs, there are laws designed to provide justice and equality.
The Rogue Isles is evolved anarchy. People have jobs and there are hospitals, but there is no Bill of Rights. There are no laws, only common sense rules like "Don't cross Arachnos" and "Don't pick fights with people that can beat you up." There are organizations, but no labor unions or means of legal recourse against an employer. There are police, but they have no internal or peer review, they do what they want how they want and keep up appearances just enought to keep Arachnos from replacing them. I doubt that the Rogue Isles hold elections, and their idea of a social program is likely feeding the homeless to the Arachnoids. The difference between Paragon and the Rogue Isles is like night and day, as it should be: the Rogue Isles are a dystopia, a cautionary tale: "this is what happens when you let the (nicer) bad guys win." Of course, the Rogue Isles are not a total dystopia, just as PC is not a total utopia. In Paragon City, white collar criminals like Countess Crey can hide behind the law for years at a time. In the Rogue Isles, it doesn't matter if you toe the line or not; when someone with greater power wants what you have they will come and take it; there are no (effective) laws to hide behind. Feeding all of the lawyers to the Arachnoids (but not the Snakes; common courtesy) is probably the first thing Recluse did. |
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
Every country of any large size has done tons of evil things and aggressive acts, and they nearly always have some kind of excuse for it. Both factions could be compared to some real world situations.
However, I suddenly got an idea in David Nakayama's building topic that answers the question:
Freedom Corps controls some of the Nerva islands. These islands are not better than the rest. They are distinguished only by a military base and propaganda statues.
Obviously, propaganda is a higher priority to Freedom Corps than helping the populace. Discussion settled. :P
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Actually, there ARE unions in the Rogue Isles. The PTS in Cap au Diable, for instance, has unionized workers. It's likely, though, that their union involves a few super-powered backers who "have words" with the employers if anything is disagreeable for the workers. That is, so long as the employers don't just buy off said backers at a rate higher than what the employees pay them in dues.
[QUOTE=Kitsune9tails;2906086]There are police, but they have no internal or peer review, they do what they want how they want and keep up appearances just enought to keep Arachnos from replacing them. I doubt that the Rogue Isles hold elections, and their idea of a social program is likely feeding the homeless to the Arachnoids.
From the official website Rogue Island Police Info:
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That makes it sound like Arachnos deliberately turns a blind eye to their operations.|
Often found guarding banks, expensive homes, and private clubs, the Rogue Island Police are a vast network of security forces that patrol the isles. Police Chief Kyle Cal Calhoun is well known among the elite of the Rogue Isles. A blustery, corpulent man who is welcome at the finest parties and swankiest restaurants, Calhoun rubs shoulders with those closest to Lord Recluse and has been accused of running his organization as Recluses personal dragoon. Indeed, tales of abuse, evidence planting, and general corruption surround the RIP as they enforce a somewhat unique interpretation of the law across Arachnos territory. Word on the street is that the RIP gather their recruits from dirty ex-cops of Paragon, soldiers gone bad, and paramilitary buffs with something to prove. Seen as on the take and power hungry, few citizens believe that they are there to protect and serve. Although rumors oftheir malfeasance have surfaced many times, those who complain have always retracted their accusations against Calhoun and his officers. Even if they do only look after the interests of the highest bidder, their tactics of fear, intimidation, and violence inadvertently prevent crime from getting out of control on the Rogue Isles. Whether on the take or not, the RIP can be a dangerous foe to anyone that might interfere with that which they are well paid to protect. |
The Rogue Isles don't hold elections, Recluse assassinated the previous president and took over, and he's been a dictator ever since.
They have social programs, it's called Haven House. Of course if you don't like it, Arachnos always needs redshirts.
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| Feeding all of the lawyers to the Arachnoids (but not the Snakes; common courtesy) is probably the first thing Recluse did. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Preferably I would say no, and go back to my cell. Doing so, on the other hand, pretty much ends that characters life lol.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Steals you away? I'm pretty sure you get a choice or not of getting on that helecopter from tutorial...and everyone seems to say "yes"
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Rikti don't use revolvers or shotguns, they use their own weaponry, so the Lost aren't getting these guns from the Rikti. No, not even as spoils of war. If they were handing down spoils of war, the Lost would be using assault rifles and more advanced weapons, not antiquated revolvers and coach guns. The Rikti War occurred in the 21st century, not the 19th century.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Wait, who says they're spending money to get these weapons.
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Skulls, Hellions, Trolls, Outcast, none of them are shown to be willing to give anything away to another enemy group, so the Lost aren't getting free weapons from any of them.
The Cabal, Carnies, Devouring Earth, Ghosts, Hydra, Minions of Igneous, Nictus, Red Caps, Shivans, Tsoo, Coralax, Tuatha de Dannan, Warriors, Winter Horde, Vahzilok, the Clockwork and CoT don't use guns, nor are they cooperative with the Lost in any way, so they aren't giving "randomly liberated" guns to the Lost.
The Council, 5th Column, the Family, Sky Raiders, Knives of Artemis, Malta or Arachnos might be willing to finance the Lost with guns, but nothing in the game suggests that this is true. Most of those listed would be just as likely to kidnap homeless people and use them as test subjects, target practice or something equally insidious as they would be to finance an enormous effort to arm tens to hundreds of thousands of people.
Crey may or may not know exactly what the Rikti are and how they're connected to the Lost, but they definitely wouldn't pour money into an empty venture, such as arming the homeless en masse.
Escaped Prisoners aren't loaning out their guns to anyone.
Freakshow... that's really the only group that's even conceivable as a potential source of revolvers and shotguns for the Lost, and it would fit their modus operandi to incite chaos by giving homeless people guns and encouraging them to "have a little fun", but this is the Freakshow we're talking about, they've proven to be hostile even to enemy groups with whom they work cooperatively, so I'm calling this one too much of a stretch unless you can link up some evidence of it being true.
That leaves only the groups which have never been shown to have any contact with or interest in the Lost, groups like the Praetorians or the Cimerorans. If there were arming the Lost, there would be at least one indicator somewhere in the game, and there isn't.
Nemesis and Void Hunters don't use the types of guns that the Lost use, so they aren't arming the Lost either, beyond the occasional "loan" of a Void Hunter Rifle.
So the Lost aren't getting their revolvers or shotguns for free. Nor are they hiring out their "services" in exchange for guns (who's going to hire hungry bums and give them guns as payment when they could just offer them a hot meal, which costs 1% of the price of a gun (if that much)?).
They're paying for their guns.
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| Hell, where would the BUY them from even if they were? |
Oh, and I know it's not exactly his call in the end, but here's what BackAlleyBrawler had to add: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...rt#post2328344