NobleFox

I notice we had a patch today and we still have those gibbon toes.

I was under the impression that lacking access to post in the AE threads meant you didn't get to advertise your mission, but hey, guess I'm wrong. Spamming's okay now, folks!

Alternately:

Because off-topic advertisement postings always get more attention.

Yes. This game operated about one month shy of 5 years without them just fine, and the overhead costs to run the game have most likely gone down since then.

According to your join date you were here for the first 8 issues. Why would you write a sentence like the one quoted above? You were here for it. Sometimes we even got costume pieces outside of issues, in random patches.

You are correct. Every time they release one of these they tick off more and more of their subscriber base. Everyone has their limits. One day they'll hit yours as well.

Oh and while we're at it:

Movie tickets still cost me what they did ten years ago. Video games still cost me what they did ten years ago. Cable TV still costs me what it did ten years ago. Internet access costs me LESS than it did ten years ago and is infinitely faster. Televisions cost me what they did ten years ago. It shouldn;t shock anyone the monthly fee for MMOs has remained the same or gone down.

Oh and by the way, the average salaries for programmers, graphic artists, QA, and writers have all gone SHARPLY down in the last 5 years. Overhead is absolutely no excuse for them to be giving me less value for my $15/month than I was getting before they hit on the idea of charging us for what used to be included.

You know what? I think you're half right but missing the entire point. Costume and weapons pieces of substance outside of booster packs has slowed to almost nothing. I can't help but think that if I and so many others hadn't paid $10 for the wedding pack way back when, we'd be getting these things with issues instead of randomly released "booster packs". This steampack stuff was likely ready to go on the last issue release, if not sooner, and it's been held back as a cynical cash grab.

Furthermore, why do I have to buy a pack of 98% crap I'm not interested in because they decided to cram something we've been asking for for years (decent looking formal dresses for women) for years in with it?

And if they're not just being facetious and the "new face tech" is some improvements to the character creator at large, why is something like that not included in base purchase price? I was in the beta. I preordered. I preordered the city of Villains Collector's Edition. I bought Going Rogue. Looking over my account, I've bought 9 of these nickle and dime addons, not just 6. I've paid my dues and I've missed three or four months subscription time since the game began.

I think I've paid enough to not have to buy a bunch of hideous steampunk crap just to get a decent pretty dress, and I'm starting to regret feeding the greed machine. I guess everyone has their breaking point and they've reached mine. I was already most of the way here back with the animal pack, purchased for absolutely nothing but the run power. I was able to justify the to myself because all those new animations likely went above and beyond merely the art department, but this?

This is just another set of costumes that should have been included with an issue, and I'm not paying $10 for something (dignified feminine clothing) we've been begging for since the Beta.

So what you're saying is "I don't feel like writing a macro to turn all the powers on or click a few times. My (incredibly minor) inconvenience trumps all these lowlifes who can't afford better computers! So what if I'm ruining it for dozens of folks at a time, it's far better than you selfish pricks expecting me to go through all the effort of clicking my mouse. you people sure are selfish pricks!"

I've never PvP'd. Ever. At any point. I got PvP IO's in a reasonable amount of time; frankly faster than people woh do PvP got them as far as I can tell. If I never do Incarnate trials, it will take a minimum of.. I'll say.. 6 months to do it in any other way.

You're trying to compare apples to housecats. All they have in common is they both tend to spend some time inside someone's house.

They already are, frankly. The drop rates for shards are too low for a soloist to ever really make it.

And you're going to get a couple of people writing paragraphs long answers about how it's a good idea to alienate a large set of loyal players (those who RP a lot and don't team a lot) in order to make this WoW in Tights. Never mind that the people who play WoW aren't going to leave it; we should still be more like them... apparently. Less like what we are, and more like the unstoppable competition. Yeah, that's worked out REALLY well for all the other games that have tried it and ended up going F2P.

Wouldn't it have been quicker just to type that?

Edit: Wow this thread got huge. By now this seems like almsot a non-sequitur. Familia had grumped that TF's are not the place for "inane banter".. and.. yeah. *catches up on the next billion pages*

I seem to not understand how one does that... what do you get shards from? I've gotten a few from Rikti Invasions but that's about all.

You can't figure out a way to upgrade? It's easy.

Step 1: Turn on Automatic Updates
Step 2: Go somewhere for a few hours

You've got that backwards and it's a creepy thought process. Working inside the system to try and change it may do nothing to make things better, but it cannot, by it's very definition, make things worse. Siding with a lunatic who's basically driven by a lovers' spat? One who is willing to intentionally lead ghouls to kill people so they can "rescue" the survivors? One who will sacrifice countless innocents JUST so he can depose his former friend, regardless of the fact that it will enable Hamidon to then destroy the only remaining safe city in the world?

That makes things worse, and it's cowardly.

Entertaining how you ADHD'd out and weren't able to respond with any substance to anything I said. It doesn't do anything to disprove the point about immaturity.

The game itself makes it extremely clear what his motivations are. Would it take someone saying to you "the only reason I didn't kidnap and molest that 11 year old girl is because I don't think I could get away with it" to help you realize that yes, intentions ARE just as important as outcomes?

That dude wanted to blow up a hospital! Who cares that he didn't get it done, his reasons for not getting it done are are only slightly less disturbed as his reasons for suggesting it in the first place.

Firstly, for those who say "it's just a game"? Yep. It is. And that's why Praetoria does not offend me... it merely bores me, it's just a game. I'm tired of seeing that message of "anarchy is good" and "nobody is a hero" presented as "edgy" and "cool", it makes my eyes glaze over with boredom. To try so hard to fill a place with "grey zones" that you only come up with a bunch of black is immersion-breaking for me, and it makes me rush out of the unpleasant and boring plotlines. Does this happen in the Isles and Paragon City as well? Yes! Several plots are just as stupid. The difference is you can opt out of them and go do sometihng else.

Praetoria offers no such option, and is thus a boring place to me.

When people try to defend the actions of the characters in the game, that rankles me a bit. There is a reason revolutions in the real world that are long on propaganda but short on actual solutions are filled with young people. An inability to empathize with people who disagree, and inability to think past the short term are, in fact, recognized signs of immaturity. Not only is it immature, but it is also cowardice to say "by any means necessary", because those means invariably involve people who just want to be left alone dying for your cause.

The only person who should ever die for your cause is you, those who raise arms directly to fight against you, and others who directly take up arms with you. It is immaturity to believe it excusable to put the lives of people who have nothing to do with a conflict ahead of your own life.

Let's make this easy: Sending people to blow up a hospital to prove your enemies are not infallible = immature and cowardly.

Sending people to raid and destroy a military target to prove your enemies are not infallible = desperate and possibly crazy, but a mature and brave decision.

That has been my entire objection to Praetoria and why it is so boring to me. All of your choices except one involve your character forcibly being a coward. The one which DOES allow you to show some empathy and gives you a mature set of principles to stick to? In the end you're again forced to be a coward; and worse have to put up with the game telling you how evil you are for trying to make the best of a bad situation. The responsibility Loyalist path, right up until the end, gives you chances to right wrongs no matter if it's done by the gangs, the Resistance, or elements of Cole's own forces.

The Warden Resistance path forces you to look the other way, and the only reason you can get the Resistance to ever cease an atrocity is because otherwise they might out you as a double agent. You cannot get the Resistance to be brave and mature by your own actions, you can only look the other way and make weak, hopeless statements to a group clearly led by someone equally as mad, but for more chaotic than, the "Tyrant" they're trying to overthrow.

I say the Praetorian plotline mostly appeals to immature folks because it DOES. Lack of empathy and cowardice, a willingness to throw others under the bus (but never putting yourself at risk to protect the people you are supposedly saving) to further your own cause are actual real signs of immaturity.

To paraphrase KoToR, which is in fact a further paraphrase of Chesty Puller (and if you read Orson Scott Card you'll recognize something Ender said which also derives from this old Marine's saying) , "Warriors kill because they hate who opposes them, Soldiers fight and die like maggots under a blowtorch when necessary because they love what they've left behind."

Another nice chestnut of his is "Soldiers step in front of civilians, cowards use them as bargaining chips."

Guard your women and children well
Send these bastards back to hell
We'll teach them the ways of war
They won't come here anymore

That is what "by any means necessary" means. It means you stand up and give your life to protect people who will never even know what you've done for them. You say "I will die for you, to protect you". Sometimes collateral damage happens, and it should pain you when it does, but to intentionally target civilians or, through your own inaction, allow them to die is cowardice.

And some people are simply immature cowards. It's a big world out there, and it takes all kinds to populate it, but one should at least be able to accept what they are. If you don't want your arguments to be called immature, then stop making immature arguments.

A lawyer acquaintance of mine has said there are three kinds of Defense Lawyers in this world. Type 1 are the wide eyed crusaders, who really are doing their best to ensure an accused gets a fair trial. Type 2 are those who talk like type 1, but it's all bologna. when push comes to shove, they do what's best for their career and all that rhetoric means nothing. Type 3 are those who simply like money, are good at lawyering, and don't really care what goes on so long as they win the case. He freely admits he is type 3. He and I both respect type 1 and type 3, even if he disagrees with the morals of 1 and I of type 3, because they're not hiding behind a layer false righteousness. Those who believe "any means necessary" includes sacrificing innocent persons to make a point would find themselves right at home as a type 2 criminal defense lawyer.

I freely admit I'd be type 1, and likely die nearly penniless as a public defender. It extends to my entertainment choices as well, I don't feel like being forced to be a coward, because I can't ram my head into my innards deep enough to be able to see the world in such a way that I could enjoy it. It's why when I play a "villain" I make choices accordingly and am something of a lone wolf hero.

At least with Statesman and Recluse, you know where you stand and can do your own thing accordingly. In Praetoria? You're forced to be evil, ultimately. Praetoria offers you no other choices.

So... you believe it was the Devs' intention to make me believe they're crappy writers with pre-adolescent views on morality and drive me out as fast as possible from boredom? As someone said before, Praetoria is not shades of grey. It's 3 shades of black and one shade of grey which you're told is "evil", at the end of which you're forced to do things not for the good of the people, but for the good of their foregone conclusion.

They TRIED with the Warden arc to make some attempt at grey, but all you are in that arc is a weak member of a faction of lunatics, uncommitted to the cause, not willing to "do what it takes" to unseat "Tyrant". The way this story is written, the leader of the Resistance is actually WORSE than the leader of the fascists, because the leader of the fascists is doing something to keep people safe. The leader of the Resistance wants to blow things up because it's personal. The Resistance is more willing to sacrifice innocent persons than the supposed "Tyrant" is, and that's where the writing fails.

Revolutions are absolutely useless unless they have something better to propose. In the real world when aimless revolutions without long term solutions succeed, it becomes a case of "meet the new boss, worse than the old boss". The Resistance are motivated and act as two-dimensional villains, yet the scenario tries it's best to paint them as good guys. It's just goatee universe in the end. Anarchy good authority bad!

I clearly stated that your only choices are evil and evil.

If you think trying to change a corrupt but semi-safe system from within is somehow worse than blowing up hospitals and telling everyone "might makes right"; then yes, you are immature. What is left if those people seized power would be worse than what was before, except louder and less safe for people who just want to go to work.

Oh, and don't forget and there's nothing the Resistance can do to keep Hamidon from making everyone dead. If Tyrant's not replaced with equal power, then all their revolution achieves was everyone's death. One way you have the chance of maybe talking Tyrant into being reasonable again.

The other way, everyone simply dies. In this choice between evil and evil, one is slightly less evil; and it's not the Resistance.