The brokenness of Ghost Widow and fears of the Incarnate
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-03-30 09:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'll have you know that my defenders, my controllers, and my few blasters are plenty damn active and participatory. Not once do they feel "boring" to me. You know what I think is boring? Running into a mob, punch-punch-punch-dead, run to the next mob, lather rinse repeat. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
While I have dutifully made those characters for the sake of the team, the power sets and builds don't really interest me. I played them, but they seem annoying or idle before you run into the next named boss, and it feels like they were powerlevelled regardless of how much they actually contribute in fact. They also sit at the bottom of the feed trough when set IOs are passed around.
I prefer to be a participant rather than a spectator. My purely subjective impression is that the game is developing a bias against characters with an active play style. Recluse, Ghost Widow, Romulus, Reichsman, Lord Winter .... I see a pattern here. I'm probably going to be told I'm hallucinating here again. |
And "bottom of the feed trough when set IOs are passed around"? What does that even mean? Some of the best cheap IO sets are for immobs, sleeps, or other control/buff/debuff powers.
I get it: you love playing melee ATs. That's fine, and it is, as you say, purely subjective. What you're not understanding is that any AT can have an "active playstyle", and that it's a good thing that the content in the game is diversified so that no one AT can just steamroll through everything solo. Every AT and powerset has things they're good at, and things they're weak to. That is by design and it is a good design.
Stop generalizing and realize that it's your own narrow thinking that's causing these problems for you, not the game.
as long as I can solo the incarnate levels AND GET THE NEW COSTUME PIECES SOLO I'll be happy and support this game forever. It IS BS though that they give away the epics at level 20 now and still lock these costume pieces up in group content. For group related content they should give group rewards to benefit that kind if play. Costume pieces should not part of the group stuff. Especially again when some of us can't play until LATE LATE LATE hours, and want these things on multiple characters/servers. It's just too difficult and it makes me want to look elsewhere when investing my money in gaming. If anything they should sell those pieces at a higher fee on the store, where I'd purchase them.
I love this game but I don't want to see it have an end game of grouping to get things/hit "60." WoW does that better and I'd just go play that then where people are on ALL the time. I like CoH because I don't have to group and can relax. I have yet to get a purple or afford it (with the other sets coming first) and I've been playing since day 1 of this game. I don't even spend money in the tailor or ever really have. I'm pretty set on most of my costumes, and am wise about how I manage my influence/infamy.
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You're hallucinating again.. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I'm probably going to be told I'm hallucinating here again.
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I agree about the costume pieces; they should be changed so you can unlock them solo (Defeat x Cimeroran traitors for the Roman armor, for instance, or even just finishing the in-zone story arcs).|
Originally Posted by BloodFairy
as long as I can solo the incarnate levels AND GET THE NEW COSTUME PIECES SOLO I'll be happy and support this game forever. It IS BS though that they give away the epics at level 20 now and still lock these costume pieces up in group content. For group related content they should give group rewards to benefit that kind if play. Costume pieces should not part of the group stuff. Especially again when some of us can't play until LATE LATE LATE hours, and want these things on multiple characters/servers. It's just too difficult and it makes me want to look elsewhere when investing my money in gaming. If anything they should sell those pieces at a higher fee on the store, where I'd purchase them.
I love this game but I don't want to see it have an end game of grouping to get things/hit "60." WoW does that better and I'd just go play that then where people are on ALL the time. I like CoH because I don't have to group and can relax. I have yet to get a purple or afford it (with the other sets coming first) and I've been playing since day 1 of this game. I don't even spend money in the tailor or ever really have. I'm pretty set on most of my costumes, and am wise about how I manage my influence/infamy. |
However, if you've been playing from day 1, shouldn't you have a zillion vet tailor tokens? I know I do, and I actually change up costumes quite a bit!
I guess I'm in the far minority on this one, because I've never actually completed an STF of any variety. I've only actually tried it once... with my Emp/Psi about two years ago or so. We didn't finish because no one on the team seemed to have any idea how to beat all of the Dr. Aeon EBs that showe up at once in one of the missions. Mind you, it's been a loong time since I've actually tried it.
I do have the RSF Master badge on 3 characters though. In general, I've spent a lot more time redside than blueside.
As far as the run of the conversation goes, I'm not averse to raids in theory, though I'd favor the 10 man variety over the 25 or 50 man variety. What I'm averse to is the 'raid treadmill' approach. When I played WoW last year, it was during the months after the Lich King release. By the time I reached 80 with a character, all of the raiders were already like, 'lolNaxx,' right?
So basically they took me through Naxx and got me gear and so forth and then the next raid was released, so we went into that raid and all my Naxx gear immediately became obsolete. Then the next raid came out and all my gear from the Ulduar raid immediately became obsolete. This was all in the span of about 5-6 months, right?
You can imagine how many people wanted to play all of the raids from Core WoW and the Burning Crusade. Which means there was a world of content I never got to see at all because if the gear from like 3 weeks ago was already obsolete, you can imagine how prehistoric the gear from last year is.
At any rate, as long as they don't start the treadmill approach, I can deal with raids. I can deal with the idea that there are just some threats that cannot be handled by a single hero or even a single team of 8. But here's the thing... if you are going to do that, leave them like that.
There's nothing worse to me than what was once a global level threat who gets thwacked to death in three hits because developers have raised the aggregate power level of the player base with the constant raid treadmill power boosts to the point that content from a year is completely obsolete.
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True. And when those things drop, I will see if I already have the salvage, and if so make them off and slot them. But I don't really bother buying stuff for the defenders or controllers I have. The merits they make are spent on other characters. I don't fuss at making IO set builds for them. Mostly they are slotted with generic IOs made in the process of badging. This is what I meant. |
Originally Posted by FreckledAvenger
And "bottom of the feed trough when set IOs are passed around"? What does that even mean? Some of the best cheap IO sets are for immobs, sleeps, or other control/buff/debuff powers.
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This is their subsidy; they don't solo in AE either, so they have no tickets.
Blasters are an in between thing. I don't dislike playing them, but I don't solo them either. I do tend to think of team support when building a blaster; most have stealth of some sort and teleport friend.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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You don't gotta. Just keep your eye on the original AV Aeon, and focus all attention entirely on him. Don't do anything that's going to scatter the EBs or make them move away from whoever's tanking Aeon. But target the one who spawned originally, and don't move from that target. When AV Aeon goes down, you win. |
Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve
We didn't finish because no one on the team seemed to have any idea how to beat all of the Dr. Aeon EBs that showe up at once in one of the missions.
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The thing I remember most vividly about the WoW loot treadmill was that a set of predictable minor nerfs would eventually be handed out a few weeks after a raid dungeon was introduced. The gear made you stronger; the nerfs put you back where you were before. It was a Red Queen's race with the devs.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Ah, personal preference, got it. Like I said before, you prefer certain builds and styles of play. That's great, everybody does! What you don't seem to quite get, though, is that other people have (sometimes drastically) different preferences for builds/playstyles. And that is why some of the content is "unfun" for you. Because it is fun for someone else. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
True. And when those things drop, I will see if I already have the salvage, and if so make them off and slot them. But I don't really bother buying stuff for the defenders or controllers I have. The merits they make are spent on other characters. I don't fuss at making IO set builds for them. Mostly they are slotted with generic IOs made in the process of badging. This is what I meant.
This is their subsidy; they don't solo in AE either, so they have no tickets. Blasters are an in between thing. I don't dislike playing them, but I don't solo them either. I do tend to think of team support when building a blaster; most have stealth of some sort and teleport friend. |
And that's the last I'll say about that, because this thread went circular a while ago and I'm getting dizzy.
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Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve
As far as the run of the conversation goes, I'm not averse to raids in theory, though I'd favor the 10 man variety over the 25 or 50 man variety. What I'm averse to is the 'raid treadmill' approach. When I played WoW last year, it was during the months after the Lich King release. By the time I reached 80 with a character, all of the raiders were already like, 'lolNaxx,' right? So basically they took me through Naxx and got me gear and so forth and then the next raid was released, so we went into that raid and all my Naxx gear immediately became obsolete. Then the next raid came out and all my gear from the Ulduar raid immediately became obsolete. This was all in the span of about 5-6 months, right? You can imagine how many people wanted to play all of the raids from Core WoW and the Burning Crusade. Which means there was a world of content I never got to see at all because if the gear from like 3 weeks ago was already obsolete, you can imagine how prehistoric the gear from last year is. At any rate, as long as they don't start the treadmill approach, I can deal with raids. I can deal with the idea that there are just some threats that cannot be handled by a single hero or even a single team of 8. But here's the thing... if you are going to do that, leave them like that. There's nothing worse to me than what was once a global level threat who gets thwacked to death in three hits because developers have raised the aggregate power level of the player base with the constant raid treadmill power boosts to the point that content from a year is completely obsolete. |
Much like I said earlier, this isn't the kind of thing I'm worried about, given the track record the Devs have shown in knowing what keeps the players they have here, and what makes this game different from others.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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But it's *A* playstyle, or *A* tactic that is affected.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
On the other hand, being placed in a situation where you cannot use the playstyle or tactics that are the purpose of your AT is a situation that everyone ought to call "broken". It isn't much fun to be a mastermind that can't use pets, a brute that can't charge, a tanker that can't take aggro, or a controller that can't use controls.
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Basically, the situation is: "You've got a couple dozen powers / tactics to pick from. This ONE POWER or ONE TACTIC would be a poor choice - work around it."
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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On what planet????|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
The Gaussian arc has six missions that pit you against Vanguard, so it takes a minimum of eighteen days to get through it.
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I've soloed that arc on a defender, a scrapper, a tank and a controller (I don't play blasters much).
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Meleers should kite DW. If they do that she doesn't last long.
Tanks should taunt from a distance, ideally if on a team get the group immobolized by a troller, and kite as well during Gaussian's arc.
Those are just 2 simple tactics that are not boring nor not fulfilling a role.
There is no arc that can't be solo'd save for multiple glowie missions and certain tf's.
Meleers don't have to stand in one spot mashing buttons for every single encounter in the game. Variance is a good thing.
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<---Didn't say it.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Well, apparently I do just plain suck.
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<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
I'm starting to think that buffs and debuffs ought to get their own equivalent of the GDN. The problem is that almost all the content seems to assume them, and everything takes five times too long in their absence, and some enemies are incredibly frustrating if not impossible. Dozens of encounters would require revision.
But this is the flip side of the same issue I was trying to raise here. I obviously did a poor job communicating. While I have dutifully made those characters for the sake of the team, the power sets and builds don't really interest me. I played them, but they seem annoying or idle before you run into the next named boss, and it feels like they were powerlevelled regardless of how much they actually contribute in fact. They also sit at the bottom of the feed trough when set IOs are passed around. I prefer to be a participant rather than a spectator. My purely subjective impression is that the game is developing a bias against characters with an active play style. Recluse, Ghost Widow, Romulus, Reichsman, Lord Winter .... I see a pattern here. I'm probably going to be told I'm hallucinating here again. |
If your team won't let you use pets against Romulus, that is a bad team.
If a player won't recruit a Scrapper to the STF because of Ghost Widow, that is a bad player.
That simple.
Hidebound inflexibility and lack of adaptation skills are bad things as well, in this game and in RL.
Dec out.
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No, it's a sign of standing by your principles, of upholding the one correct way of acting as handed down by the gods, err, Devs. Deviating from that single true way simply to succeed at something is a betrayal of what is right and proper. It doesn't matter if you can't actually present anything that confirms the true way to others, you know what was intended in your heart, guts and just about every part of the body that doesn't involve the mind. Or at least that's what i've read now and again.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Hidebound inflexibility and lack of adaptation skills are bad things as well, in this game and in RL.
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So you can take your "flexibility" *horrkk* and your "adaptation" *ptui* and be a heretic all you want. Those who know their single role and method of fulfilling it will keep the faith and carry on failing.
(Personally i'm with you, but don't tell the true believers that.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
We're probably not supposed to talk politics here or I'd go off on a rant on the teabaggers.
Dec out.
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Ah. I need to have a tanker that blasts, a scrapper that controls, and a blaster that tanks. Gotcha. I may need more than 36 character slots per server at this rate, though.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Deviating from that single true way simply to succeed at something is a betrayal of what is right and proper.
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What shocks and astounds me is that although there seems to be at least some agreement with the premises that
- debuffs and buffs are extremely powerful,
- ranged damage has significant advantages over melee damage, and
- the more "challenging" enemies that have been put in the game so far strongly favor debuff or control, to the point that these things are required to succeed at them ---
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I think it's because the "role" is entirely in your head. This is a very flexible game. The idea that certain ATs had specific "roles" was dashed long long ago.
Dec out.
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Your statements in this thread have rather proven this to be true.| Instead, I'm told that I don't know how to play the characters I like best, that I'm inflexible or hidebound. |
I had to go look up hidebound. I like that word.
Be well, people of CoH.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
Originally Posted by Decorum
I think it's because the "role" is entirely in your head. This is a very flexible game. The idea that certain ATs had specific "roles" was dashed long long ago.
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honestly though, this thread delivers. max lulz.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
debuffs and buffs are extremely powerful
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| ranged damage has significant advantages over melee damage |
Ranged damage has an advantage over melee damage because it is ranged.
Melee damage has an advantage over ranged because it tends to:
A) Be stronger, single-target-wise
and
B) Come paired with another powerset that gives self protection
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| the more "challenging" enemies that have been put in the game so far strongly favor debuff or control, to the point that these things are required to succeed at them |
You keep dealing in absolutes. Stop it. As it is, your premises kinda go on a nice little slope of Not Wrong to Wrong.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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People need to stop spreading the crap that the heals off the healer are what makes Romulus unkillable.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
If your team won't let you use pets against Romulus, that is a bad team.
That simple. |
Go Look at the Debuffs the power gives for half a second, 20% Damage debuff to your entire team, plus a tohit debuff on top of that, plus the Slows the summoned fluffs give.
You can also have a defense heavy meleer separate the healing fluffy from the rest, get it around a corner and solo it while the rest of the team takes down Rom and the other two fluffies.
In the end, however, he's a cakewalk with the current difficulty settings. Just jump him, drop debuffs on him, kill him, get out of LoS when he falls to avoid the nasty stun, repeat until done.
Be well, people of CoH.
Seriously this. My blaster isn't hanging back picking off targets, he's all over the place, applying burnination as needed, and since my MM's tend towards /dark, they're also rather active, despite their "attacks" being fairly autonomous. "Active playstyle" isn't something that's inherent in the AT or powerset combo, but more in the build and how the player uses it.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2