The brokenness of Ghost Widow and fears of the Incarnate
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-03-30 09:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The problem is that "wanting to do it" isn't necessarily just an on/off switch. Personally, I've got several characters sitting more or less retired at 50, who I very much like getting the chance to un-retire, so to speak. Hence, I can say currently, without even knowing what it involves, that, for at least a few of them, I want to do the new end game content. That said, there are certain styles of play that I am more comfortable with, as well a certain styles that I fairly loathe. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The CoH endgame system is optional - just like all the systems in the game - if it's not something you want to do, or have any interest in, then you can skip it.
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I don't want to be confronted with content that I can't, say, run solo if that's what I'm in the mood for. One of the things I love about this game is the idea that I can play and progress in the manner I see fit. I have characters I've literally solo'ed to 50, and a few that have spent every minute of their lives together with a team. The thing is, both were able to progress in their own way.
The problem with a raid-like approach to endgame content is that I stop having that option. Now, like BillZ said above, if there are alternate paths that still allow these progressions, than there's no problem, and so far, that's the way things have been. A change to that which demands a certain style of play in order to progress is quite unwelcome.
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You want to heal her to full health? Be my guest.|
Originally Posted by Azerrath
What scares me is now I want to use Gang War on Ghost Widow.
 |
She has [Dark Regeneration]. Every person in range has a small amount of health drained.
On an 8 person team, only the melee types should be that close. (So, if you're thugs, you should order everyone but your Brawler to stay at range.)
So that would be any Brute/Tankers, Your Melee Pet, any scrappers/stalkers on the team, and maybe a Kin if Ghost Widow times it right. Not enough to full heal unless you're all in melee range.
Using [Gang War] summons 10 Melee Pets whom Ghost Widow will summarily devour. (Seriously, GW's Dark Regen is a OHKO for them)
So don't do it!
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The thing is, all the curent endgame stuff in the game is team based - it's simply way, way easier to design a challenge for a team than it is to design a solo based challenge. |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The problem is that "wanting to do it" isn't necessarily just an on/off switch. Personally, I've got several characters sitting more or less retired at 50, who I very much like getting the chance to un-retire, so to speak. Hence, I can say currently, without even knowing what it involves, that, for at least a few of them, I want to do the new end game content. That said, there are certain styles of play that I am more comfortable with, as well a certain styles that I fairly loathe.
I don't want to be confronted with content that I can't, say, run solo if that's what I'm in the mood for. One of the things I love about this game is the idea that I can play and progress in the manner I see fit. I have characters I've literally solo'ed to 50, and a few that have spent every minute of their lives together with a team. The thing is, both were able to progress in their own way. The problem with a raid-like approach to endgame content is that I stop having that option. Now, like BillZ said above, if there are alternate paths that still allow these progressions, than there's no problem, and so far, that's the way things have been. A change to that which demands a certain style of play in order to progress is quite unwelcome. |
Teaming means that the weaknesses of the ATs can be covered in a way that just isn't possible when you're solo.
I don't think all the Incarnate content will be team based - but I also don't think it'll be somehting you can completely solo eiter.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And that's part of the reason most of my 50s are currently retired, really. Though again, like BillZ said, it still comes down to alternatives, though. If I want an HO, for example, I have several different ways to get it. There's the tried-and-true Hami method, an LRSF/STF, or, if I'm really just not in the mood for teaming period, or on a low-population server where that's not as feasible, then I can at least turn to the markets. I'm not locked out of progression simply because I choose to play in a certain way. If the new system requires teaming either as one or multiple groups, and I am therefore locked out of it unless I want to participate in a raid, that's where the high level disappointment sets in.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The thing is, all the curent endgame stuff in the game is team based - it's simply way, way easier to design a challenge for a team than it is to design a solo based challenge.
Teaming means that the weaknesses of the ATs can be covered in a way that just isn't posisble when you're solo. |
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Meh, not likely to happen anyway. I've fought her..... three times. No idea she even had a self heal of any sorts. For me, once I make 50, that character turns into a trophy I keep in the back room and let collect dust. |
Originally Posted by NightErrant
You want to heal her to full health? Be my guest.
She has [Dark Regeneration]. Every person in range has a small amount of health drained. On an 8 person team, only the melee types should be that close. (So, if you're thugs, you should order everyone but your Brawler to stay at range.) So that would be any Brute/Tankers, Your Melee Pet, any scrappers/stalkers on the team, and maybe a Kin if Ghost Widow times it right. Not enough to full heal unless you're all in melee range. Using [Gang War] summons 10 Melee Pets whom Ghost Widow will summarily devour. (Seriously, GW's Dark Regen is a OHKO for them) So don't do it! |
It's kind of the reason I've never been on any of the raids. Getting any kind of 'loot' at that point is just rather pointless.
So yeah, no idea she had that power. I was always murdered in the middle of the ultra hold of ultimate doom.
Only did the .. ITF(?) that has romulas(sp?) once and I figured you wanted to back off him when he ressurrected because that would stun the snot out of you.
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I think a lot will depend on how they're viewing the endgame system - if they're looking at it as a long term thing for 50s to do, then they might now allow whatever drops or rewards we get to be sold at WW - they might be more like the current merits we have.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
And that's part of the reason most of my 50s are currently retired, really. Though again, like BillZ said, it still comes down to alternatives, though. If I want an HO, for example, I have several different ways to get it. There's the tried-and-true Hami method, an LRSF/STF, or, if I'm really just not in the mood for teaming period, or on a low-population server where that's not as feasible, then I can at least turn to the markets. I'm not locked out of progression simply because I choose to play in a certain way. If the new system requires teaming either as one or multiple groups, and I am therefore locked out of it unless I want to participate in a raid, that's where the high level disappointment sets in.
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But if they go for HO style rewards, then that would mean people who didn't want to team would be able to just buy all the Incarnate stuff via WW.
But I think it's very unlikely that you'd be able to simply buy everything for the first 10 Incarnate levels via WW, without ever having to set foot in any of the new Incarante content.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The statement "all the curent endgame stuff in the game is team based" is also false. Slapping an arbitrary minimum team size requirement on something means absolutely nothing.
There are FOUR actual team based events in this game that I'm aware of: LRSF, STF, Hamidon and Rikti Ship Raid. Everything else has been soloed by someone.
Be well, people of CoH.
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But could they be soloed by everyone?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The statement "all the curent endgame stuff in the game is team based" is also false. Slapping an arbitrary minimum team size requirement on something means absolutely nothing.
There are FOUR actual team based events in this game that I'm aware of: LRSF, STF, Hamidon and Rikti Ship Raid. Everything else has been soloed by someone. |
I'm sure someone has soloed the BTF and LGTF, but that doesn't mean that it's solo content - not every player or AT could do it.
Also, don't you think that calling them "zone events" does make it sound like some sort of team thing rather than a solo thing?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I agree, actually. Just the fact that they're described as "levels" indicates to me that the progression almost naturally must be based on the undertaking of content, and honestly, I rather hope that's the case, since it would certainly be more fun to unretire my old characters to do new content rather than to re-run old content in order to pursue the alternative paths.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But I think it's very unlikely that you'd be able to simply buy everything for the first 10 Incarnate levels via WW, without ever having to set foot in any of the new Incarante content.
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I just keep the hope, if not necessarily the expectation (being pessimistic means I'm never disappointed!) that, in the process of creating the new content, the developers keep players like myself in mind as well. I'm not going to go for the fallacy of thinking that everyone else in the game must share my views, but I highly doubt my approach to the game makes me a beautiful and unique snowflake, either, and I'm sure there are others who share my combined hope and dread of the new system.
As a highly casual player (hmm, let's see, somewhere around 40 months, no 50's, and only one even in the 40's and about 4 more in the 30's) I don't think the Incarnate system is going to do much for my enjoyment either way. I've still got oodles of content to explore before I run dry. 
Aside from the blanket statements about how certain ATs or powersets aren't useful, or won't be wanted, and the hyperbole about how difficult it is to get temp powers or inspirations, I can see your point, but it raises a question:
Why should the game change it's playstyle to fit your needs, and not the other way around? You say you don't like endgame content as it has been done in other games. Even if something similar creeps in to CoH, why does that matter to the rest of us? YOU don't like it, so don't do that content. The rest of the game won't change, and you've been happily rolling alts and reliving content for howeverlong you've been playing. End-game won't change that a bit. Why does every piece of gameplay have to suit every playstyle out there? It's impossible to please everyone. I don't complain when there's attention being given to PvP, when I don't generally do it. I don't pay attention to how other players spend billions on builds for their characters when mine use generics and perform better than average on their own. There's a piece of this game for everyone to enjoy and spend their time in. End Game can be one of those (one that a lot of players have been wanting) and even if it's not executed how you'd like it, so what? You get by fine without it right now. If I were a Dev, I'd try to make the majority happy with new content I'd been working on, but I'd know that there would always be people out there that would hate it. It shouldn't stop me from making what I, and many, many other players, thought was fun.
Loose --> not tight.
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One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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It has ever been my understanding that it was fundamental to the design philosophy of this game that any team of the required size, featuring any ATs and any power sets, could successfully run any content that required a team. Neither tank nor healer nor buffer nor debuffer were required to do anything. A team of eight ice melee/fire armor tankers or mind/empathy controllers with only SO builds ought to be able to defeat Ghost Widow, in other words. |
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Why should the game change it's playstyle to fit your needs, and not the other way around? You say you don't like endgame content as it has been done in other games. Even if something similar creeps in to CoH, why does that matter to the rest of us? YOU don't like it, so don't do that content.
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The problem with gimmicky encounters is that they threaten to break this design philosophy. The more gimmicky an encounter is, the more the player base becomes motivated to find a formulaic team that will succeed on it, and this leads to discrimination against character types that do not fit the formula.
I don't want this game to develop in a direction where everyone else wants to run frustrating content.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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So you know what's best for everyone else?|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I don't want this game to develop in a direction where everyone else wants to run frustrating content.
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lol.
the deranged way you mis-use the market makes me doubt the devs should be following your lead on anything.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Well we've been missing that around here for a few years with Jack being gone. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
So you know what's best for everyone else?
lol. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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The funny part is that you think a team of 8 mind/emps would have a harder time than any other team you might name.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
A team of eight ice melee/fire armor tankers or mind/empathy controllers with only SO builds ought to be able to defeat Ghost Widow, in other words.
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The 8 Ice/Fires could do it too, and hilariously, with rolling Vengeance/RotP. Doing it without deaths would be harder, i.e. require planning and maybe insps.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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I have two high level controllers, an ill/emp and an ice/cold. The ice/cold is a lot more fun to play, but does not run missions at all; she'd take half an hour to finish a radio mission, and that's assuming that she stealthed to the end.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
The funny part is that you think a team of 8 mind/emps would have a harder time than any other team you might name.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I see you have perhaps not considered what having multiple control/buff characters on a team does.
Think about 8 Regeneration Auras and 8 Recovery Auras. Think about everyone having Adrenaline Boost and two or three Fortitudes and umpty bajillion Clear Minds. Throw 8 Assaults and 8 Maneuvers on top of that just for giggles.
Now think what stacking 24 mag 3 (chance for 4) non-aggroing confuses does against GW's mag 50 mez protection.
With all due respect, you should have known this before making statements about what is and is not "too difficult."
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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How your solo controller plays has nothing to do with how eight controllers play together.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
I have two high level controllers, an ill/emp and an ice/cold. The ice/cold is a lot more fun to play, but does not run missions at all; she'd take half an hour to finish a radio mission, and that's assuming that she stealthed to the end.
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I have never felt forced into getting large insp for a STF run.
Heck most of the Master's runs I have been on, if we stopped for insp it was small ones at Ouro.
Your idea of best practice and the way others play have little correlation. As pointed out when you posted this in the tanker area, I play non-softcapped scrappers. My regen when he got the Master Badge (and every other time I fight GW unless solo) spends his time out of the arc of her cones, smashing away with high DPS. If she hits me with her PBAOE heal I am STILL net contributing.
Your basis is unsound.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Well, granted. That's good business sense and good general sense. Again, though, the precedent remains for having alternative paths. If I won't, or can't, join a raid, then the ability to do something smaller scale (which might even take more effort, overall, to do, but still be a feasible alternative) in order to eventually gain a similar reward should be factored in.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If I were a Dev, I'd try to make the majority happy with new content I'd been working on, but I'd know that there would always be people out there that would hate it. It shouldn't stop me from making what I, and many, many other players, thought was fun.
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Again, it's a matter of style. In the game's current form, there is nothing my characters can't hypothetically obtain, no matter how I choose to play. There is specific content, obviously, that I am locked out depending on various factors, but there's always another path to the same outcome provided by that content.
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8 Fire/Ice Tanks? No problem.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
A team of eight ice melee/fire armor tankers or mind/empathy controllers with only SO builds ought to be able to defeat Ghost Widow, in other words.
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Step 1: Make sure everyone has Maneuvers. Three-slotted, that gives everyone 28.4% DEF all. If everyone also has CJ (default slot with a DEF SO), that'll mean everyone has 31.4% DEF all.
Step 2: Make sure everyone has an Immobilize from the APPs. I chose Chillblain just because.
Step 3: Get some purple Insps for just in case. Yes, I said purple. I didn't say large, medium or small. Small's fine at just 12.5% DEF. That'll put you within spitting distance of the softcap which is more than enough considering you're backing it up with Fire's RES and healing.
Step 4: Spam Immob, Burn, attacks and heals as necessary. Chew on the purples as needed. A full tray (20) is more than enough.
Step 5: Break out the hotdogs. Win.
For Mind/Emps? Even easier.
Step 1: Maneuvers again. Notice a trend? 4.1% DEF each, so that's 32.8 DEF all.
Step 2: Fortitude the two players next to your name. Three-slotted Fort is 17.6% DEF. It recharges in 30s and lasts 120. Keeping it up on two others is easy and nets everyone another 35.2% DEF. That's 68% DEF all in total.
Step 3: Spam Confuse to approach.
Step 4: Once GW is confused, move in and hit the player below with Adrenaline Boost. Start chain firing Regen and Recov Auras.
Step 5: Spam Dominate and Levitate.
Step 6: Win.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Is this a good time to point out that all Blaster teams have beaten the Statesman Task Force? Or is that irrelevant to your issue with the late game task forces?|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
It has ever been my understanding that it was fundamental to the design philosophy of this game that any team of the required size, featuring any ATs and any power sets, could successfully run any content that required a team. Neither tank nor healer nor buffer nor debuffer were required to do anything. A team of eight ice melee/fire armor tankers or mind/empathy controllers with only SO builds ought to be able to defeat Ghost Widow, in other words.
The problem with gimmicky encounters is that they threaten to break this design philosophy. The more gimmicky an encounter is, the more the player base becomes motivated to find a formulaic team that will succeed on it, and this leads to discrimination against character types that do not fit the formula. I don't want this game to develop in a direction where everyone else wants to run frustrating content. |
The only time specific powersets or AT's are mostly required for certain content is when you're trying for "Master of" badges. No specific team composition is required to complete any of the content in the game.
<de-snarked>
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Fine - as long as there is an alternate way for me to play thru the Incarnate content. I currently happily ignore Bloody Bay and the rest and could ignore End Game Raiding - so long as there is roughly equivalent alternate content out there. And by "roughly equivalent", I mean available to soloer or small teams rather than mega teams or teams made "the correct way", even if it's slower or takes more missions or whatever.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Aside from the blanket statements about how certain ATs or powersets aren't useful, or won't be wanted, and the hyperbole about how difficult it is to get temp powers or inspirations, I can see your point, but it raises a question:
Why should the game change it's playstyle to fit your needs, and not the other way around? You say you don't like endgame content as it has been done in other games. Even if something similar creeps in to CoH, why does that matter to the rest of us? YOU don't like it, so don't do that content. The rest of the game won't change, and you've been happily rolling alts and reliving content for howeverlong you've been playing. End-game won't change that a bit. Why does every piece of gameplay have to suit every playstyle out there? It's impossible to please everyone. I don't complain when there's attention being given to PvP, when I don't generally do it. I don't pay attention to how other players spend billions on builds for their characters when mine use generics and perform better than average on their own. There's a piece of this game for everyone to enjoy and spend their time in. End Game can be one of those (one that a lot of players have been wanting) and even if it's not executed how you'd like it, so what? You get by fine without it right now. If I were a Dev, I'd try to make the majority happy with new content I'd been working on, but I'd know that there would always be people out there that would hate it. It shouldn't stop me from making what I, and many, many other players, thought was fun. |
If I can't become Incarnate and get the same benefits if I don't raid, then I'm going to be very unhappy.
Also, since there are already other games out there that have the big mega raid end game - go play them for that type of content. City has broken the mold of those games, so it shouldn't need to go copy them now without at least some attempt at maintaining it's casual playstyle for the soloer or duoer or parent who plays between taking care of the kids or person who can only play 30-45 minutes because there's homework or whatever.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Well, things like the Mo badges and the Task force Commander accolade power might be kinda tricky to get solo |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Again, it's a matter of style. In the game's current form, there is nothing my characters can't hypothetically obtain, no matter how I choose to play.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
...
I have been on teams (and have led teams) where either before we started up the STF or before the LR fight asked the tanker (and others) to fill up on purples (if I thought we needed it to make it go faster/easier). 3-4 tier 1 inspirations should do it for each tower...and after 1-2 towers are down (depending on which ones you do) you (the "tanker" of the team) really doesn't need any purples any more.
*shrugs*
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