The brokenness of Ghost Widow and fears of the Incarnate
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-03-30 09:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
ive never had problems with vanguard, yes they are very tough to resistance based melee users because they debuff you out the wazoo, but that doesnt mean they are broken.
i do however think that certain things (simultaneous glowy mishs, sewer trial, ect) do need to be looked at, the sewer trial is fine as is, just needs a slightly longer time limit
the STF and LRSF are supposed to be tough, thats why they should be hard, and if you think those are biased against ATs look at the barracuda sf, that one almost requires you to have a mm to keep reichs from going untouchable at 50% hp, without a mm, reichsman is 10x harder to kill or impossible for most teams.
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Then delete all your tanks. They are NEVER needed. EVER.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
What this means to me is that there really isn't a purpose for having a tanker on the team if you want to run this content. The tanker is only there as a favor. The team would be better off if the tanker were replaced by another character who brings something that actually helps.
Q. E. D. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Rather, logic tends to be inflexible. |
Originally Posted by Emberly
So is this. Tankers are more than just alpha-eaters. You are being either willfully ignorant or purposefully obtuse.
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Insult me if you feel the need to, but at least bother to include an explanation of how a tanker is supposed to contribute to a team's success here. Tell me how and why it's even desirable to have a tanker on a team running this. Explain how it's not the case that any other character would be helping more.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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in the case of vanguard the tank still can hold aggro, but they get aggro after the foes are locked down in some way so they dont kill you outright, its much easier to get aggro of a group thats mass held for the first 10-15 sec than to just jump into the mob outright, vanguard are nasty to squishies too, but they arent bad if you lock them down, but the controller cant hold aggro against x8 mobs and thus its the job of the tank to hold aggro still, but will be 10x easier to hold aggro after they are debuffed/mezzed
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Rather, logic tends to be inflexible.
Insult me if you feel the need to, but at least bother to include an explanation of how a tanker is supposed to contribute to a team's success here. Tell me how and why it's even desirable to have a tanker on a team running this. Explain how it's not the case that any other character would be helping more. |
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Or, if you'd prefer, I can make the case that any AT in the game is more desirable to have along on any mission in the game than a tank.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Rather, logic tends to be inflexible.
Insult me if you feel the need to, but at least bother to include an explanation of how a tanker is supposed to contribute to a team's success here. Tell me how and why it's even desirable to have a tanker on a team running this. Explain how it's not the case that any other character would be helping more. |
In other words, what you're requesting is dumb. Fear the sorcerers? Tell your troller to lock him down and not to worry about anything else. Then you can deal with aggro management on the rest of the spawn. Or tell your defender watch you more carefully as you tank and tell that scrapper over there to unload everything he has on the sorc.
Call targets. Plan. Use tactics. Learn to play.
Quit with the "herding to here" crap that became useless, boring and a waste of time as soon as ED, GDN and aggro caps were introduced.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Not the first time she's made a ridiculous thread and it won't be the last unless she ragequits now.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Is it your feeling that the entire game and all its content should be so easy that anyone can faceroll through it?
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Alternatively, taunt from range. Particularly helpful when combined with slows or immobs. Once debuffs and controls are laid down to the point where melee range is no longer lethal, step in and deal damage.
I'm somewhat bemused by this idea that if you are not necessary or optimal, you are useless and a waste of space. You must play with some awfully mean people.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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I'd go with taunt combined with immob from a controller.
AOE Immob is awesome versus the Vanguard, limiting the damage they can do versus the melee guys.
Tank using taunt makes sures the trollers don't die from the aggro the AOE immob causes. AOE immob means the tank is safe from cascade defence failure.
This is called teamwork, and should be encouraged.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Yes, because alpha-strike taking is the ONLY use a tanker has on a team. Once the Controller has immobilized the spawn or the Traps defender has tricked them into attacking his Seeker Drones then they really WANT all of that aggro aimed at them. [/sarcasm]|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
What this means to me is that there really isn't a purpose for having a tanker on the team if you want to run this content. The tanker is only there as a favor. The team would be better off if the tanker were replaced by another character who brings something that actually helps.
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It's personal anecdote time! I was running Tina McIntyre's arc on my Traps Defender and the team included an Ice Tanker. The Radiation Robots in those missions were really doing a number on him with their defense debuffs, he'd leap into a spawn and be dead or in Hibernation very quickly. Using Seeker Drones to take the alpha strike was enough mitigation to allow him to get in and Tank the spawn without faceplanting. Did I think he was leeching? Heck no, Traps Defenders are tough, but with no DDR my survival against large numbers of defense debuffing robots would be considerably worse than his. By working together we were both a lot tougher than we would have been if either of us had tried to tank the spawn alone.
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| Quit with the "herding to here" crap that became useless, boring and a waste of time as soon as ED, GDN and aggro caps were introduced. |
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| This is called teamwork, and should be encouraged. |
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| By working together we were both a lot tougher than we would have been if either of us had tried to tank the spawn alone. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Nothing you've said is logical, and your statements regarding tankers are so ridiculous that I do not need to refute them. You aren't fooling anyone in this thread. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Rather, logic tends to be inflexible.
Insult me if you feel the need to, but at least bother to include an explanation of how a tanker is supposed to contribute to a team's success here. Tell me how and why it's even desirable to have a tanker on a team running this. Explain how it's not the case that any other character would be helping more. |
It's not intended to insult you, by the way, when I say you are willfully ignorant or purposely obtuse. It's just the way it is. Either you are actually ignorant of the game mechanics and roles of the archetypes and how they interact, and you refuse to learn (willfully ignorant) or you know those things and are pretending they don't exist (purposefully obtuse). Your posting has been refuted by myself and others, with explanations where applicable, and yet you cling to these wrongheaded ideas. If you take that as insulting, it's no skin off my nose.
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Maybe, as soon as I get over being amazed at the ability of people to simultaneously|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Is it too much to hope that some of this might be sinking in?
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- maintain that all characters are potentially equally helpful on all content and will always find a place on teams looking to run it, while
- out of the other side of their mouths they acknowledge that at least one mission arc is designed to be deliberately hostile to some character classes.
This concerns me, and I think it ought to concern you as well. And if that is an issue with character that is somehow important, unlocking accolades or further story lines, you will be left out. Just as I'm left out of Dark Watcher due to my distaste for the Gaussian arc, and get told to bring a blaster or debuffer if I want to get in on a STF on a scrapper.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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The bolded word is the sticking point.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Maybe, as soon as I get over being amazed at the ability of people to simultaneously
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You're saying "everyone's equal."
We're saying "everyone can help."
These are not the same.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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If some characters aren't as helpful as others, then .... those characters don't help as much? Are you with me so far?|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
The bolded word is the sticking point.
You're saying "everyone's equal." We're saying "everyone can help." These are not the same. |
And if certain characters don't help as much, then some other characters would help more? Are you following me this far?
When you decide to put together a team, which would you rather have on it: characters that help more, or characters that don't help as much?
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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Characters. Period.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
When you decide to put together a team, which would you rather have on it: characters that help more, or characters that don't help as much?
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Let me elaborate a little. When I build my teams, I state the following in the relevant channels: "level XX team: X spaces"
I don't ask for ATs. I don't ask for Powersets. I don't ask for anyone to even be in that level span (thank you SSK). I just ask that they join in and play.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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You don't see it going both ways because you are willfully and flagrantly ignoring how much content out there is specifically designed to screw over all the other ATs.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Maybe, as soon as I get over being amazed at the ability of people to simultaneously
This concerns me, and I think it ought to concern you as well. And if that is an issue with character that is somehow important, unlocking accolades or further story lines, you will be left out. Just as I'm left out of Dark Watcher due to my distaste for the Gaussian arc, and get told to bring a blaster or debuffer if I want to get in on a STF on a scrapper. |
You don't see it going both ways because you're stuck in a tanking mindset that went the way of the dodo 10 issues ago.
You don't see it going both ways because you are choosing to remain completely ignorant to the concept of utilizing teamwork.
There's a thing in this game that's quite prevalent called Mez. Guess how many ATs get to ignore it completely by the time they can slot DOs versus how many have to fight against it for the entire run from 1 to 50? You don't think that's a bit excessive?
I have run the STF with my scrapper many times and have NEVER been told to get something else. You obviously run with a bunch of morons.
It's really no wonder that opinion towards tanks is so low.
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| When you decide to put together a team, which would you rather have on it: characters that help more, or characters that don't help as much? |
Be well, people of CoH.
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You're pretending that nonoptimal ATs can't get invited to content. If this was true, then every single TF/SF would be formed entirely of whatever AT handled it best. This doesn't occur, other than people intentionally running all-$AT teams. Fact is, good teams are often comprised of multiple ATs, acting in concert. The best teams are formed of any ATs being run by skilled players. You're also pretending that you cannot form your own team and populate it with whatever you want. Anyone can start a TF, and if your server or clique or SG or whatever doesn't want your scrapper on the STF, then form your own STF on your scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Maybe, as soon as I get over being amazed at the ability of people to simultaneously
This concerns me, and I think it ought to concern you as well. And if that is an issue with character that is somehow important, unlocking accolades or further story lines, you will be left out. Just as I'm left out of Dark Watcher due to my distaste for the Gaussian arc, and get told to bring a blaster or debuffer if I want to get in on a STF on a scrapper. |
As far as being left out of the Dark Watcher because you are unwilling to work through Gaussian's arc, I don't know what to tell you. It's doable and not that difficult. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face with that one.
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Do you ever take a team with any defender other than /sonic blast into an Av fight ?|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
When you decide to put together a team, which would you rather have on it: characters that help more, or characters that don't help as much?
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Why did you take along a charcater that clearly doesn't help as much as a /sonic ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I have one rule: everyone fights. As long as you are damaging the enemy I don't particularly care what AT or powersets you are. If I cared about only ever having the best of the best I'd refuse to team with anyone other than Defenders or Controllers (and even the Controllers are iffy). There is absolutely no reason to invite Scrappers, Blasters or Tankers if you're looking to make the "perfect" team.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
When you decide to put together a team, which would you rather have on it: characters that help more, or characters that don't help as much?
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I'm pretty sure he means that the 18 days is the time it takes to use the mission drop feature on all the missions, not that it takes 18 days of actual playing to do the arc.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
you're trolling us right?
if I'm right on the lvl...I'm done with RWZ within a day and I've run many melee characters through it...Stalkers, Brutes and Tanks. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
When you do the same thing in every circumstance, and sometimes it doesn't work, that is not bad design.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Both sides are not shown at their best in that conflict - but while Dietrich is a bit of a pain, Longbow are still more heroic than Vanguard, who are very much in Vigilante territory |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Kpfft...like hell she is...
She's a control freak with a bigger stick up her backside than Libby has. /Opinion |
That arc does have an awesome bit of humor in it though
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If you're asking me whether mez is overused in this game or not, you will get no argument from me. This is probably the chief reason why I prefer tankers and scrappers. I have far fewer blasters, controllers, or defenders, and since I find them frustrating to solo and less enjoyable to play in general, I don't try to solo them and don't build them to try. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There's a thing in this game that's quite prevalent called Mez. Guess how many ATs get to ignore it completely by the time they can slot DOs versus how many have to fight against it for the entire run from 1 to 50? You don't think that's a bit excessive?
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I admit I was a bit surprised by the BotZ thread, that apparently people were trying to build squishies with range defense capped. I can see how that's a good idea, especially since mez is indeed annoying. I can only assume that they were using these as solo builds, and can see how their builds would be spoilt by that change. I do think that immunity should be available to all characters for other kinds besides knockback.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
This has to be one giant troll post.
Noone can be this bad or ignorant?
Oh wow. Great thread, Hera. Would read again.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize