Excitment... and FEAR.. about new "End Game" content..
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-22 08:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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What Chad said, and I'll go further and say any existing lvl 50 will be able to do the End Game content.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
You'll still be able to do any of the existing content the same way you always could.
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This isn't WoW. Players don't need to "gear up" every time a new TF or zone comes out. End Game content just means interesting stuff for lvl 50s to do, it doesn't mean "ZOMG unless ur purpled out you can't even try End Game N00b Mish #1".
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Fair enough, but I have no problem with them having done it once. Even if they come up with something else that seems contrived/annoying, as long as it's NEW and DIFFERENT and they only do it ONCE, I'm cool with it.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
2. No more big bag of hitpoints as the big challenge. I really don't want to see a repeat of the Khan TF in any form.
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| 4. No to raiding culture. I'd rather not see something implemented here like there is in WoW: Application into various tiers of guild based on gear and then ascension into a higher level guild once you've gotten gear of that particular dungeon. Teamspeak and voice chat are absolutely required and raid leaders who can, at times, be tyrannical. I realize I'm very broadly generalizing and putting forward a caricature of guilds in WoW, but I've heard enough bad stories from real players that I'd rather not see that implemented here. |
On the other hand, I think we do need more raids - as in any activity that requires more than a single team. Hamidon really isn't very popular. The RWZ raids seem to me to be a great success, but it's just one raid. We need more group stuff, preferably with more flexibility. Hamidon is too complicated and requires too many people.
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The Mentor Project
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
End Game content is an unqualified good.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
With the qualification that it renders current 50s substandard until they have gone through it.
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Secondly, there is already so much variety in powersets, builds and IO'ing that most currently existing 50's *ARE* substandard when compared to others.
I second the position that End Game content is an unqualified good. The fact that people can IMAGINE problems with a system they know nothing about is meaningless.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Originally Posted by Sardan
Sure, any TF is interesting the first time because it's novel. Which is completely beside the point I was making. There are some TFs that players enjoy 100x more than others. My hope was that the devs are studying that to really understand why, and use those lessons in crafting new TFs. They shouldn't be aiming at new TFs that are interesting but not worth repeating; they should be aiming for replayability.
One factor for me, besides avoiding the boredom of "the big bag o' hit points" is time. Part of what makes the LGTF and ITF so fun is that they can be done in under 2 hours by the average team. The ITF is clearly only part of a larger story. I'd love it if they came out with a sequel roughly the same size that advanced the story. That way you could go through an epic story in bite-sized chunks.  |
Don't get me wrong, I am agreeing with you. I was just looking for a silver lining concerning Kahn and 'Cuda. Hopefully Posi will realize that a large part of this game's fans despise those narrow hallway cave maps, and gimmicks that make 50 levels worth of powers meaningless.
Kahn isn't so much bad as it is boring. 'Cuda is both.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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I've been beating this drum for a while. Pounding on a sack of hit points is dull. Making the sack bigger doesn't make it more challenging--if you can beat the regen, you can still smash it--it just makes it dull for longer. I'm okay with that in certain scenarios, like some of the GMs, and even as a once-off on an AV, but not in general. |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
2. No more big bag of hitpoints as the big challenge. I really don't want to see a repeat of the Khan TF in any form. The tricks are lame because they (at least on the villain side) dictate or rather strongly influence AT choices and the final challenge really boils down to how much debuff you have. I hope they take the Khan TF and the Baracuda TF as examples of what *NOT* to do.
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Honestly, I think most normal AVs have too many hit points as it is. I think they'd be more interesting (and honestly, more challenging) with improved scripting and more powers, but fewer hit points. I know that's more difficult to create from a technical standpoint, but I believe it would make for a better experience.
In short, I hope that the foes we face in the new Mystery End Game aren't so much "tougher" as "smarter and better-prepared".
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Which begs the question, "What's standard?"
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
With the qualification that it renders current 50s substandard until they have gone through it.
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Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
What Chad said, and I'll go further and say any existing lvl 50 will be able to do the End Game content.
This isn't WoW. Players don't need to "gear up" every time a new TF or zone comes out. End Game content just means interesting stuff for lvl 50s to do, it doesn't mean "ZOMG unless ur purpled out you can't even try End Game N00b Mish #1". |
I agree, but have to wonder... how are you going to pull that off?? The game is pretty much easy mode once you hit 50 and IO out... and i'd wager a larger majority of people are doing THAT then the people who are prefectly happy with just SO's. Frankly, the only people i've ever heard talk about just having SO'd build are one or two people hear on the forums. Never in game.
So, how is this endgame, going to be engaging, and promote progression to current powerful lvl 50's, and challanging... while at the same time being doable for you basic run of the mill SO'd out guys? I don't think they can do it... Things are almost too easy now as is... and thery'er going to allow even further progression... but not add any kind of challange?
I think the majority of people will want added challange alone with the added progression, and eventaully simply being an SO'd lvl50 unprogressed just won't cut it for the very end game... I just can't see how it'd work that way.
And i'm not meaning this to be a complant. I like progresson. I like have goals to strive for. I'm looking forward too it... I'm just saying, i don't think the dev's can keep both camps happy in this respect, and wonder how they are going to handle it...
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My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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We already have custom difficulty settings which mitigates the problem somewhat.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
And i'm not meaning this to be a complant. I like progresson. I like have goals to strive for. I'm looking forward too it... I'm just saying, i don't think the dev's can keep both camps happy in this respect, and wonder how they are going to handle it...
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Ideally, the way the devs do this is by adding more creative gameplay that rewards skill more than uber builds. We'll see what Posi comes up with in his Secret Lab. I'm optimistic he can pull it off.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Here is my and end game... >.>
In AoC, I have like ZERO desire to get to lvl 80 because I have sat here and watched my husband RAID... and OMG that looks like the epitome of absolute boredom.
Posi said this end game he wis working on is FUN, in all caps...
Guess what, Cryptic said their unity carp was gonna be fun... and guess what?! It's NOT. It's NOT fun. It's absolute grind boredom-suckfest.
When I heard/read Posi is incharge of endgame, I was like, "Oh". Wow, I wonder if this game that I have loved so much since forever, will actually have an endgame I think would be fun?
If not atleast GR is bringing a whole new 1 to 50 experience. I can always fall back on that.
Just a week ago thoe, I moves all my static 50's I was never gonna use ever again over to Freedom... (I moved 16 50's)
Leaving abunch more 50s on my home server Virtue, that I was actually gone move more over to Freedom... because I never use them.
I know people in game who still use SOs, or TOs at the most. Most of them on Triumph. They just didn't want to juggle the IOs.
I may be alone, but I want the new end game content to reward my toon with POWER. I don't really care if it puts me above and beyond those who don't do it, because all they have to do to be as powerful as me is do the content.
When Jack ran the game, he had a way of making me (and others) feel he didn't want us to be really super. It was OK for his NPC, or the main NPCs to be near gods, but that was not in his "vision" for the PCs. Screw that.
I want the end game content to give me even greater travel powers, crazy IOs, killer costumes, and any other awesome the Devs can think of to reward me (us) for doing the content. I doubt I am alone in that.
If you want the power, do the content.
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I'll have what he's having.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I know people in game who still use SOs, or TOs at the most. Most of them on Triumph. They just didn't want to juggle the IOs.
I may be alone, but I want the new end game content to reward my toon with POWER. I don't really care if it puts me above and beyond those who don't do it, because all they have to do to be as powerful as me is do the content. When Jack ran the game, he had a way of making me (and others) feel he didn't want us to be really super. It was OK for his NPC, or the main NPCs to be near gods, but that was not in his "vision" for the PCs. Screw that. I want the end game content to give me even greater travel powers, crazy IOs, killer costumes, and any other awesome the Devs can think of to reward me (us) for doing the content. I doubt I am alone in that. If you want the power, do the content. |
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But power to what end? If it's to go back to the normal content and kick butt more easily, fine... but if the power becomes a requirement for doing new and end game content, then CoX will become just like every other High End Raid type game. No thank you!
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
If you want the power, do the content.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Gotta give Zyphoid props for that last post. I admit that I've felt the same way while playing the game, thinking "Why the hell is every individual member of the Freedom Phalanx so much more powerful than my character?" While it's still pretty fun to wreak havoc on a group of minions, AV and Hero-class enemies always make me a little frustrated from a roleplaying standpoint.
And while I fully accept that most builds/players should never be able to solo one of the big bads (after all, this is an MMO), anything that juices up the characters I feel should be more powerful via a gameplay experience is a very welcome addition.
And for my characters I don't feel require a "power up," I can simply choose to not partake of the system with them. Like Zyphoid said...
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(The flip-side of that coin of course being, if you don't want the power, then don't do the content.)| If you want the power, do the content. |
It all boils down to what you want to do.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Raids and bigger group content are fine. What I don't like is a lot of the negative stuff that comes with it: gear discrimination, tyrannical guilds, requirement for voice chat (not that I mind voice chat, I just don't want to see it become mandatory), and the requirement that you *have to* be in a SG (guild) of some sort to progress.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
There's really two separate issues here. One of them is the whole loot business where you need the right gear to do certain content and you need to grind certain content to get the gear, etc. This is bad.
On the other hand, I think we do need more raids - as in any activity that requires more than a single team. Hamidon really isn't very popular. The RWZ raids seem to me to be a great success, but it's just one raid. We need more group stuff, preferably with more flexibility. Hamidon is too complicated and requires too many people. |
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I am yet to see anything in the game that a SOed team can't do. I don't think that is going to change. Is the game easier for fully IOed characters? Yes, and it should be. Those players put the work, time, and inf in to be more powerful. |
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
But power to what end? If it's to go back to the normal content and kick butt more easily, fine... but if the power becomes a requirement for doing new and end game content, then CoX will become just like every other High End Raid type game. No thank you!
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The Dev team has always said that IOs were not required to play the game. I have seen no evidence to suggest that is a lie. I don't think it is going to become like WoW, where to get good teams you have to be fully geared. The main reason is not even because of the Devs. We just have a better community.
We have a community full of players that will drag multiple -20s on AV arcs, just because we tend to be nice. This alone could block the WoW mentality. The Devs also want the game to remain fun for the casual player, and they have made that more than clear. So no matter what the end game content is, I doubt it will wreck the game for the casual player, as nothing else has.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
Raids and bigger group content are fine. What I don't like is a lot of the negative stuff that comes with it: gear discrimination, tyrannical guilds, requirement for voice chat (not that I mind voice chat, I just don't want to see it become mandatory), and the requirement that you *have to* be in a SG (guild) of some sort to progress.
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The WoW community stinks. It is the biggest reason I could not get into the game. I love fantasy, but dang they were just jerks. Guild Wars seemed to be the same.
I think players are more likely to be bared because of AT and power selection than anything else.
Types of Swords
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First, let me say I know that ultimately debating about an end game that we literally know nothing about is pointless. But hey, it's entertaining so here I go!|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
What Chad said, and I'll go further and say any existing lvl 50 will be able to do the End Game content.
This isn't WoW. Players don't need to "gear up" every time a new TF or zone comes out. End Game content just means interesting stuff for lvl 50s to do, it doesn't mean "ZOMG unless ur purpled out you can't even try End Game N00b Mish #1". |
The traditional definition of level 50 content in this game is "stuff that any level 50 can do". We know that anything an IO'd team can do, an SO'd team of competent players can also do. Set bonuses or elite purple IOs are not required.
But given that Positron specifically said at Comicon that a key part of GR will be a way to make 50s more powerful, I think that will necessarily create an entirely new class of content. Here's why:
We know from the old '08 marketing survey that Universal Enhancement Slots were summarized as a way to give your character the equivalent strength/effectiveness of a hypothetical level 60, but without raising the level cap. Now August '08 was a long time ago, and they may have a completely different mechanism in mind for GR, but the key part is to realize the design philosophy behind using a phrase like "hypothetical level 60." That means they intend for the new mechanism to convey seriously meaningful buffs, not trivial buffs that would be impossible for a player to notice in action.
That leads inescapably to the idea of there being new, harder, content that is aimed squarely at players climbing the UES slotting ladder, plus new end game content specifically designed for fully "leveled up" characters.
We don't expect level 40 characters to be able to do anything a level 50 can do. If there is truly meaningful character empowerment/progression as part of GR, I wouldn't expect someone who hasn't begun that process to be able to do the same tasks a fully geared up character could. To put it another way, if GR moved the level cap to 60, people wouldn't say stuff like "I shouldn't be required to level up to 60. My existing 50s should be able to tackle all the new content." Well, GR is adding a new way to progress characters, albeit without bumping the level cap.
But before people doomcry, having a new harder level of content doesn't automatically turn the COH endgame into a WOW-clone. In CoH you can earn the finest loot from soloing, either directly or with merits or purchased from the market. I would expect that this philosophy will be part of COHs new end game too. Yes there will surely be TFs and probably raids, but it would be shocking to me if pure solo characters couldn't get the same rewards by merits or the market. Posi knows the concept of large scale raids as a mandatory means of character progression is antithetical to CoH's gameplay. There's no way he'll design a system where a soloer or small team can't get to the new cap, however that's ultimately defined.
EDIT:
What would be in keeping with current COH design philosophy is if there's an "easy mode" way to slot up the UES's that's equivalent to SOs. That'd be the bare minimum you'd need to tackle all the new end game content. Then there'd be the next level that was nicer but not hugely so, equivalent to getting IO set bonuses. Then finally there will be an elite level of slotting that only the most hardcore players bother to go after, equivalent to purples. That'd put you at the top of the pyramid of character effectiveness but there wouldn't be any content designed to require this level of uber gear.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
You make a persuasive argument. As long as players can still solo and get the same uber end-game rewards, then I don't have an issue with UES (or whatever method the devs employ to give us more powah).
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Overall I agree with you. But, I cannot agree with this. Expressing a concern while it is in development is the most appropriate time. Doing so reduces the likelihood that it could be the case before beta were it is less liekly to be scrapped. That worry will be in the developer's mind more then if nothing was said.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I second the position that End Game content is an unqualified good. The fact that people can IMAGINE problems with a system they know nothing about is meaningless.
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--Rad
/whereami:
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You've got some tough decisions ahead of you. Hopefully, you'll enjoy the new stuff enough to make those decisions worth it to you. That is our goal, at least.
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Originally Posted by KingSnake
Anyone else feel this way? I'm excited to no end about the "END GAME" stuff Posi mentioned. Something to plug our 50's into that help advance them and give them fun stuff to do... very very excited... but..
... By the time GR hits live... I'll more then likely have... 35 LvL 50 toons. (I'm at about 33 now with 2 over 35 and one just about to hit 30... so maybe 36 even...) How the heck am i going to decide who should go first?! And.. if it's really involved... who gets neglected and who gets the special treatment... ?? I have over 25 different heros and 10 or more villians.. all of whom i pretty much enjoy playing and like there concepts. If i hadent, they would have been scrapped long before lvl 50... Infact, this whole "end game" concept has had me scrap my plans for any NEW alts. Once i finish the 3 i currently have over lvl 25, I'm not starting any new ones till i know more about what's going to happen. Anyone under 25 gets there costumes saved and deleted tonight. (just incase i want to remake them in GR...) It's been a slow friday for me here at work.. i've had too much time to think on this topic... LOL. Anyone else in the same boat? |
/em summons Golden Girl to explain how it's not a problem since she only has one character.
/em wonders if the name "Big Bag of Hit Points" is already claimed.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Great Idea! I just claimed that name on all the servers I play... |
Originally Posted by Organica
/em wonders if the name "Big Bag of Hit Points" is already claimed.
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I'll be happy if the new end game is so incredibly fun and, yes, time consuming that it makes us agonize over how we're going to run all our 50s through it all. |
Originally Posted by Castle
You've got some tough decisions ahead of you. Hopefully, you'll enjoy the new stuff enough to make those decisions worth it to you. That is our goal, at least.
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To me, that's the very definition of "win". It took me 5 years to get all these 50s. If it takes me more years to get them all maxed out and the process is just as fun and rewarding as it was getting to 50, then that's a great "problem" to be burdened with!
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Nervous? Fear?
Nope. None at all.
I've reached the level cap on my 50's.
I haven't done a Hami Raid or STF on all my 50's.
End Game content for me, will be for those toons I still play at 50 and like to pull out even if they are 50. For more than just "Okay let me grab this toon to help out".
Right now, that's my main and namesake, DB/WP Scrapper.
Who in all likelyhood will be rerolled as a Dual Pistol/something (Probably Mental, as that's the closest to a time manipulation feel), then be busy doing end game content for her, while getting her all IO'ed out!
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I imagine the new content being, a lvl 50 is able to earn new slots, that can be slotted with SOs/IOs/or possibly some new type of enhancement, that anyone can obtain if they desire. May need a team to do it, but I doubt it'll be something the team has to be all Purpled to do.
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Originally Posted by Sardan
First, let me say I know that ultimately debating about an end game that we literally know nothing about is pointless. But hey, it's entertaining so here I go!
The traditional definition of level 50 content in this game is "stuff that any level 50 can do". We know that anything an IO'd team can do, an SO'd team of competent players can also do. Set bonuses or elite purple IOs are not required. But given that Positron specifically said at Comicon that a key part of GR will be a way to make 50s more powerful, I think that will necessarily create an entirely new class of content. Here's why: We know from the old '08 marketing survey that Universal Enhancement Slots were summarized as a way to give your character the equivalent strength/effectiveness of a hypothetical level 60, but without raising the level cap. Now August '08 was a long time ago, and they may have a completely different mechanism in mind for GR, but the key part is to realize the design philosophy behind using a phrase like "hypothetical level 60." That means they intend for the new mechanism to convey seriously meaningful buffs, not trivial buffs that would be impossible for a player to notice in action. That leads inescapably to the idea of there being new, harder, content that is aimed squarely at players climbing the UES slotting ladder, plus new end game content specifically designed for fully "leveled up" characters. We don't expect level 40 characters to be able to do anything a level 50 can do. If there is truly meaningful character empowerment/progression as part of GR, I wouldn't expect someone who hasn't begun that process to be able to do the same tasks a fully geared up character could. To put it another way, if GR moved the level cap to 60, people wouldn't say stuff like "I shouldn't be required to level up to 60. My existing 50s should be able to tackle all the new content." Well, GR is adding a new way to progress characters, albeit without bumping the level cap. But before people doomcry, having a new harder level of content doesn't automatically turn the COH endgame into a WOW-clone. In CoH you can earn the finest loot from soloing, either directly or with merits or purchased from the market. I would expect that this philosophy will be part of COHs new end game too. Yes there will surely be TFs and probably raids, but it would be shocking to me if pure solo characters couldn't get the same rewards by merits or the market. Posi knows the concept of large scale raids as a mandatory means of character progression is antithetical to CoH's gameplay. There's no way he'll design a system where a soloer or small team can't get to the new cap, however that's ultimately defined. EDIT: What would be in keeping with current COH design philosophy is if there's an "easy mode" way to slot up the UES's that's equivalent to SOs. That'd be the bare minimum you'd need to tackle all the new end game content. Then there'd be the next level that was nicer but not hugely so, equivalent to getting IO set bonuses. Then finally there will be an elite level of slotting that only the most hardcore players bother to go after, equivalent to purples. That'd put you at the top of the pyramid of character effectiveness but there wouldn't be any content designed to require this level of uber gear. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093