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Except that the salvage red-side would go into the pool of the blue-side salvage, evening that up, while the supply of recipes would go to the villains, evening that up. And there's no way villains could get locked out of the market because if you merge them, influence and infamy basically become the same thing, thus the supply of infamy and the supply of influence would be identical. Also, there's no upper-limit to the supply of inf*, and generating infamy is not innately any more difficult than generating influence. The only reason there's less infamy than influence available from the markets is that they are separate.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
I dont' know why you think the Hero markets are cheaper.
First, there are more people playing heroside, therefore much more influence than infamy. Second, supply might be higher on recipies, but it is lower on salvage, heroside. Cost to make things is higher, overall, on heroside than it is villainside, for both salvage and recipies. Merging the markets will cause a large scale disruption, and it is entirely possible that villains will end up being "locked out" of the market simply because the supply of infamy is lower than the supply of influence. |
I'm not discounting the fact that there will be a major disruption if the markets are merged, I'm just saying that when GR is released, there will be a major disruption anyway, so there would be no additional problems.
The only way that there would be any problems is if infamy and influence were stored seperately when you change sides, which would only lead to a greater disparity between the redside market and the blueside market. And even then a merged market would dampen those effects.
Your arguments as to why the markets should remain separate are all either non-problems, or are easily solved. I remain unconvinced.
I should also clarify my point about prices; when I say that stuff's cheaper blueside, I'm referring to the big-ticket items. I apologize for being unclear and general when I said 'everything' since that's just not true.
I once read an analysis of the CoH/CoV markets by an economics student (do we have any of those around here, currently?) and I try to find it every time this question crops up, and I never can, but the result is as follows:
Because the activity that creates money (inf) is also the activity that creates goods (drops), and because of established economic trends, merging the CoH and CoV markets will drive all prices up.
Essentially: Price(Hero) < Price(Hero + Villain) AND Price(Villain) < Price(Hero + Villain)
Since fewer people play Villains, the amount of Inf they can generate is less than the amount of Inf that Heroes generate, the supply will tend to go to heroes (because they can afford to overspend), eventually pricing Villains out of the market.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Confusion reigns on the generation of inf...hmm, so let me get this right, if I play a hero from level 1-50 they will generate more inf than a villain from 1-50. And if the markets are merged so that heroes and villains trade on the same market my villain would still generate less inf than my hero.??? Funny, on the way to 50 mine seem to generate roughly the same.
The way I see it may be differant.......Their is more inf Blue side due to the age differance/population, not due to individual inf generation, as I have more rich redside alts than I do blue side ones, so if it's individual inf generation on the way to 50 I cannot see a problem in merging the markets. Simply the fact that their is more overall inf blueside...not inf/character should have no bearing on the markets at all.
After all, it's just play money in a play universe, and GR would be a great time to just get rid of the market divide and have an interdimensional trader in Preatorian Earth.
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Seriously? You do realize the market is a place to sell as well right? I mean sure...Capt Dogooder can pay twice as much as Commandant Evildoer can, but he does that a couple of times and suddenly the Commandant has a big pile of inf. Its a zero sum (minus 10%) game on the market. Mobs give the same amount of inf, and the same amount of drops on both sides.... |
Originally Posted by Shadowe
I once read an analysis of the CoH/CoV markets by an economics student (do we have any of those around here, currently?) and I try to find it every time this question crops up, and I never can, but the result is as follows:
Because the activity that creates money (inf) is also the activity that creates goods (drops), and because of established economic trends, merging the CoH and CoV markets will drive all prices up. Essentially: Price(Hero) < Price(Hero + Villain) AND Price(Villain) < Price(Hero + Villain) Since fewer people play Villains, the amount of Inf they can generate is less than the amount of Inf that Heroes generate, the supply will tend to go to heroes (because they can afford to overspend), eventually pricing Villains out of the market. |
If yer talking about Heroes as a whole generate more inf, then I agree. But unless all the Heroes pool their resources to buy all the items then Villains will be fine.
Merge markets please
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Um, actually we *DO* know their motivation. Go do the arcs in the Rikti War Zone, particularly Dark Watcher's and read all the text. We know EXACTLY why they attacked and it has nothing do with planetary conquest. Well, actually it kind of does, but it wasn't the Rikti planning the conquest. I can say no more!
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Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
As for the riki thing it seams I got them mixed up with the Nictus. But the theory still stands there is no realy moral alignment for planetary conquest since we don't know there motives and there not from ether detention.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I was doing some thinking, and I hope theat Posi and the crew are looking at bumping the low level zone to 20 and up. It would be a great waste of content to have The Hollows, Perez Park and Mercy Island be ghost zones. It might infuse life back into the older zones , and besides, it would be a lot of fun to run Perez Park like the old days and have it be worth while and populated.
Cheers
EA
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
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Pay attention. |
Originally Posted by Frogfather
Seriously? You do realize the market is a place to sell as well right? I mean sure...Capt Dogooder can pay twice as much as Commandant Evildoer can, but he does that a couple of times and suddenly the Commandant has a big pile of inf. Its a zero sum (minus 10%) game on the market. Mobs give the same amount of inf, and the same amount of drops on both sides....
If yer talking about Heroes as a whole generate more inf, then I agree. But unless all the Heroes pool their resources to buy all the items then Villains will be fine. Merge markets please |
Individual villains might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things redside is lower. That means inf transferred from blueside to redside is going to be less than inf transferrred from redside to blueside.
There simply are fewer villains than there are heroes. THis is a fact. In the aggregate, villains generate much less inf than heroes, just from the sheer weight of number. They generate fewer recipies, and less salvage.
While, yes, inf under a merged market would flow freely between the sides, the fact is, prices for everything would rise. And with fewer villains playing, that means individuals redside would have a harder time paying for things from the merged market.
Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of influence to infamy would quickly stabilize, leaving villains overall in a poorer position.
Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams redside? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, redside, unless there is an event of some kind running. Blueside, on the other hand, it is easy to get into a team.
The developers have kept the markets separate, and it's a good thing they have. It keeps local market conditions local and doesn't force people to pay blueside prices, redside.
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Man, where were you two months ago. I've been arguing about this forever. Just not nearly worded as nicely as you. |
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Pay attention.
Individual villains might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things redside is lower. That means inf transferred from blueside to redside is going to be less than inf transferrred from redside to blueside. There simply are fewer villains than there are heroes. This is a fact. In the aggregate, villains generate much less inf than heroes, just from the sheer weight of number. They generate fewer recipies, and less salvage. While, yes, inf under a merged market would flow freely between the sides, the fact is, prices for everything would rise. And with fewer villains playing, that means individuals redside would have a harder time paying for things from the merged market. Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of influence to infamy would quickly stabilize, leaving villains overall in a poorer position. Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams redside? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, redside, unless there is an event of some kind running. Blueside, on the other hand, it is easy to get into a team. The developers have kept the markets separate, and it's a good thing they have. It keeps local market conditions local and doesn't force people to pay blueside prices, redside. |
Anyway, yeah I completely agree with everything you said regarding redside.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
Pay attention.
Individual villains might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things redside is lower. That means inf transferred from blueside to redside is going to be less than inf transferrred from redside to blueside. There simply are fewer villains than there are heroes. THis is a fact. In the aggregate, villains generate much less inf than heroes, just from the sheer weight of number. They generate fewer recipies, and less salvage. While, yes, inf under a merged market would flow freely between the sides, the fact is, prices for everything would rise. And with fewer villains playing, that means individuals redside would have a harder time paying for things from the merged market. Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of influence to infamy would quickly stabilize, leaving villains overall in a poorer position. Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams redside? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, redside, unless there is an event of some kind running. Blueside, on the other hand, it is easy to get into a team. The developers have kept the markets separate, and it's a good thing they have. It keeps local market conditions local and doesn't force people to pay blueside prices, redside. |
I agree with everything you said, really I do, except the conclusion. The flow of inf would stabilize. Villians, due to a lack of teaming would generate less inf as an aggregate....still in agreement. Heck the lion share of merits and pool c/d drops would come from blue side.
The part where we diverge is youre talking about generating inf and Im really talking about accumulating inf. Assuming all villains solo and all heroes team the villains are going to be getting the bulk of the drops and the heroes the bulk of the inf. That would seem to be a perfect match. I know the truth is somewhere in between but I dont think teaming has as big an impact as you might think on the accumulation of inf. And looking back at your post the only difference you point to is the ability to find a team
Villains as a whole generate less of everything....individually I dont agree.
At this point...and before anyone gets a bonnet with a bee in it or somesuch, Im going to offer to agree to disagree....
Merge Markets please
But wouldn't Villains get more teams becuase of the Vigilantes in the Rogue Isles? They can't access the contacts there, they can only join Villain teams, so wouldn't that create more teaming in the red side?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Do we know that Vigilantes won't be able to speak to contacts in the Rogue Isles?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But wouldn't Villains get more teams becuase of the Vigilantes in the Rogue Isles? They can't access the contacts there, they can only join Villain teams, so wouldn't that create more teaming in the red side?
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I was planning to churn through all the Villain content with my Hero using Ouroboros.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I think it was Positron who said that at Hero Con - it's probably because you still wouldn't be trusted enough by Arachnos to be given missions - the same way that authorities in Paragon City wouldn't trust Rogues enough to make them a part of the law enforcement there.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Do we know that Vigilantes won't be able to speak to contacts in the Rogue Isles?
I was planning to churn through all the Villain content with my Hero using Ouroboros. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
... *reads the above post* ...
So, where do people get those excellent "facepalm" pictures from these days? Would you like to know why the Rikti are attacking Paragon Earth? It's explained in the RWZ arcs. Seriously, plain as the nose on your face. The final arc sums up everything. Don't pay attention to the storyline when in game? You can read the content of the storyarc I'm referring to here. But by all means, please continue to argue against established story canon just because you think your idea of the in-game story is better than what's actually there. |
Excuse me if I haven't run every freaking mission or memorized every bit of the storyline.
I will say this when talking about alternate universes all bets are off. I'm not saying youre wrong but all things being equal my theory could also be true. We have something like 4 or 5 different known universes here most human based. There could easy be a few dozen dimensions where my ideas are correct. But it doesnt matter. NON of us have sufficient information to determine how it's going to work and it doesnt really matter this is a game not the good word of you're divinity of choice. There's no reason to discount any possibilities. In the next issue Paragon could be attacked by Muppets for the Sesame Street dimension.
Stop taking this so seriously man.
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I haven't quite run everything, and I doubt anyone (devs included) has memorized every bit of the storyline. However, you're suggesting things contrary to some very prevalent and important story canon.|
Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
Excuse me if I haven't run every freaking mission or memorized every bit of the storyline.
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| I will say this when talking about alternate universes all bets are off. I'm not saying youre wrong but all things being equal my theory could also be true. We have something like 4 or 5 different known universes here most human based. There could easy be a few dozen dimensions where my ideas are correct. But it doesnt matter. NON of us have sufficient information to determine how it's going to work and it doesnt really matter this is a game not the good word of you're divinity of choice. There's no reason to discount any possibilities. |
Nobody's saying that the stuff you're suggesting couldn't be in some parallel dimension. They're just saying it's not in Praetoria, and for the most part are backing it up with proof.
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| In the next issue Paragon could be attacked by Muppets for the Sesame Street dimension. |
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| Stop taking this so seriously man. |
It's fine to speculate on things, but for pete's sake, it's still two months (at least) away from when the Going Rogue beta test begins. We'll learn a lot more when it gets here, and things are likely to change significantly between the start of beta and the actual release to the live servers.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Which wouldn't be anything new over the market situation as it stands now. On average (in my experience), Villains are currently paying in many cases 2-3 times as much for the same recipes compared to Heroes. Salvage is even worse, and don't even get me started on Inspirations (at least, the medium and large ones).| Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of influence to infamy would quickly stabilize, leaving villains overall in a poorer position. |
Take an example that I looked at the other day. A five-piece set of Hecatombs I was looking at for my scrapper would have cost me about 600mil Hero-side, while Villain-side I'd be looking at 1bil+ for those same five recipes (more than likely closer to 1.5bil, considering the greed of some sellers). While supply Villain-side is obviously the main culprit currently, I can't see why having access to a combined Hero/Villain supply as being any worse than we have now. Yes, yes, the Heroes would probably end up buying up the lions share of anything on the market, whether it be Hero-generated or Villain-generated, but all in all, the situation wouldn't change much, if at all.
To those among us like myself that play primarily Villains, we've become accustomed to paying exorbitant prices compared to Heroes for the same stuff. To me that's of no great concern anymore, what with my potential weekly income in the 500mil to 1bil range. And if anything, my income could very well increase with a merged market, since I will have a larger pool of buyers to access and sell my drops and merit/ticket rolls to, thus bringing my potential income up. I will admit of course that not every Villain is in the same financial boat as I am, to be sure. But there's nothing stopping them from figuring their own way to make Inf, whether it be by farming in Grandville, the AE or elsewhere, or of course marketeering like many others do (personally, I farm when I need Inf).
What it boils down to in my opinion (and the opinion of many that I play with routinely Villain-side), is that a merged market won't be as terrible as some think it would be. Just as when the AE went live, it will take time for many things on the market to stabilize in price. We learned to deal with the supply issues back then, so why couldn't we learn to deal with them on a merged market?
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Individual Defiant players might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things on Defiant is lower. That means inf transferred from Freedom to Defiant is going to be less than inf transferrred from Defiant to Freedom.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Individual villains might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things redside is lower. That means inf transferred from blueside to redside is going to be less than inf transferrred from redside to blueside.
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There simply are fewer Defiant players than there are Freedom players. This is a fact. In the aggregate, Defiant players generate much less inf than Freedom players, just from the sheer weight of number. They generate fewer recipies, and less salvage.
While, yes, inf under a merged market would flow freely between the sides, the fact is, prices for everything would rise. And with fewer Defiant players playing, that means individuals on Defiant would have a harder time paying for things from the merged market.
Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of Freedom inf to Defiant inf would quickly stabilize, leaving Defiant players overall in a poorer position.
Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams on Defiant? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, on Defiant, unless there is an event of some kind running. on Freedom, on the other hand, it is easy to get into a team.
Agree, y/n? Do you think that players on the smaller servers are in a position that they can't afford to outfit their toons because the players on the larger servers have all the inf? Do you think the market should be split up so it's intra-server only, to be fair to the majority of lower-population servers? Would that lower prices for everyone? What effect do you think it would have on supply?
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
I logged on today to find i've got the determined badge and the other one (cant remember it) Does that mean I've got into GR beta at some stage? I was confused by the whole thing.
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It means you're eligible for entry to the beta once they start the "loyal customer" wave of invitations. I believe 5+ year vets still have higher priority.|
Originally Posted by EU_Greg
I logged on today to find i've got the determined badge and the other one (cant remember it) Does that mean I've got into GR beta at some stage? I was confused by the whole thing.
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Note that the beta won't actually start until some point after New Years, in 2010.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Good |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
It means you're eligible for entry to the beta once they start the "loyal customer" wave of invitations. I believe 5+ year vets still have higher priority.
Note that the beta won't actually start until some point after New Years, in 2010. |
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This is an excellent demonstration of the fallacy of Starcloud's argument. Thank you, Grouchybeast. This argument is like saying that the United States shouldn't trade with less populous countries because the U.S. would buy everything up and the citizens of the smaller countries wouldn't be able to afford anything, while AT THE SAME TIME the smaller countries wouldn't gain any money from selling stuff to the U.S.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Individual Defiant players might be able to buy anything on the market, but overall, the supply of things on Defiant is lower. That means inf transferred from Freedom to Defiant is going to be less than inf transferrred from Defiant to Freedom.
There simply are fewer Defiant players than there are Freedom players. This is a fact. In the aggregate, Defiant players generate much less inf than Freedom players, just from the sheer weight of number. They generate fewer recipies, and less salvage. While, yes, inf under a merged market would flow freely between the sides, the fact is, prices for everything would rise. And with fewer Defiant players playing, that means individuals on Defiant would have a harder time paying for things from the merged market. Also, in a merged market situation, the flow of Freedom inf to Defiant inf would quickly stabilize, leaving Defiant players overall in a poorer position. Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams on Defiant? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, on Defiant, unless there is an event of some kind running. on Freedom, on the other hand, it is easy to get into a team. Agree, y/n? Do you think that players on the smaller servers are in a position that they can't afford to outfit their toons because the players on the larger servers have all the inf? Do you think the market should be split up so it's intra-server only, to be fair to the majority of lower-population servers? Would that lower prices for everyone? What effect do you think it would have on supply? |
I vote to merge the markets. In a merged-market economy, every individual has the same potential to earn inf (other than disparities in farming ability, which has nothing to do with redside/blueside), proportional to the amount of time they play.
I still can't rap my head about why were bothering discussing merged markets. Since you'll have to be lvl X to go to leave Pratoria for ether of the blue or red zones assuming you ever wish to wouldn't there be a dedicated Pratoren red/blue market. We'd ether end up with 3 markets satisfying the need for both sides of the debate or one combined which I dought. If there were you'd, according to story cannon, be trading across dimensions.
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This is completely, utterly wrong. Are we even playing the same game?|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Teams are generally the best/fastest way of generating influence and infamy. Have you tried to form teams redside? Let me tell you, most of the time, you cannot get a large team together, redside, unless there is an event of some kind running.
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Set for 0/8 or -1/8, a player soloing will earn everything a team of 8 earned. A good farmer will even complete the run in a similar time to a team of 8.
Market: Just merge it, it will balance out in time. Just like the AE affects on the market. There will be pulls on both ends, but it will balance out.
SGs: Setup SGs so both sides can join either side, let each group decide on their own. If you want your sg to allow both this works. If you want your SG to only allow heroes, just don't invite villains. Quite simple and I believe and would make everyone happy. IIRC that is what Positron said their goal was right?
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Thats exactly what I was thinking
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Originally Posted by Gypsy_of_Paradox
Market: Just merge it, it will balance out in time. Just like the AE affects on the market. There will be pulls on both ends, but it will balance out.
SGs: Setup SGs so both sides can join either side, let each group decide on their own. If you want your sg to allow both this works. If you want your SG to only allow heroes, just don't invite villains. Quite simple and I believe and would make everyone happy. IIRC that is what Positron said their goal was right? |
At any rate this is a game just because they say something at a con doesn't mean that it's going to get into the game. I simply stated possibility. The alt version of lord recluse could still be around and they might just not want you to know about it yet. Like I sead "Unless you've see his dismembered decomposing corpse I wouldn't bank on him being dead." Could also be his son or daughter seeking revenge against Marcus Cole. Personal revenge could fit rouge status very easily. Isn't that the basis of the Punisher's background that was mentioned as an example of an anty-hero/rouge. You think I'm being black and white but you're thinking in so many absolutes there are no such thin in this or any other world.
As for the riki thing it seams I got them mixed up with the Nictus. But the theory still stands there is no realy moral alignment for planetary conquest since we don't know there motives and there not from ether detention. Though I sort of like the idea of the Pratorenes invading there dimension and the reason there attacking ours is because they mistook it for theirs. Riki lord "Whopsy wrong dimension must have forget to carry the 2." :P (And I know the ailed riki would have dis proven this. IT's A JOKE.) X(
Still the lack of war walls do suggest that if they are there there probably doing far better aginst them than we are.
Oh and as far as markets are concerned if the game can be played with out going to hero or villain side thin there will probably be a pratoren market. Any reason not to combine them is probably both story wise and that would double the back end complexity of the system.
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This and the previous post both call for an execution.
And that's just the typo's.
Short answer: No /jedihandwave
Long answer: NnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOO!
/jedihandwave