New player experience sucks pretty bad right now
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 22:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I support removing AE from Atlas, Galaxy, and KR
I don't support level or veteran restrictions
I'd really like to see AE restricted to unused zones like Skyway and Brickstown
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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
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Your post pretty much sums it up nicely.
AE is a system with no downfalls, while the current dev content has them.
As much as we might hate running from top of IP to the bottom just to let a contact know you finished a mission and want another, or hate having to do 3 paper missions before a broker will give you a contact, those things give some kind of cohesion to the game experience. You're seeing the city, you're getting a chance to look at zone events. In COV, you might come across an unlockable contact you didn't know about.
We may hate some or a lot of things about how the devs choose to present the game content and some of it may need revamping after all these years...but it should never be made irrelevant simply because it does not get you uber-leveled or offer enough phat lewtz in comparison to AE stuff.
I think the 2 suggestions posted above that make the most sense are:
1. Remove the Auto SK
2. Make the Leader be in the lvl range of the mish.
Now having said that, I dont really think there is a problem with the AE. I honestly think a bunch of people are getting their underwear twisted over minor stuff. But....thats just me.
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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This, as well as Mercy and Port Oakes (for equality). I believe the only reason the devs haven't done it is they don't want to admit they made a mistake putting them there in the first place.
New players need to experience content. Ten levels worth is enough to taste what the game has to offer and learn a bit about it.
This leaves plenty of AE buildings to choose from. The farmers can pick up and move elsewhere, it isn't a burden. Anyone whining about removing the buildings from lowbie zones, IMO, is a farmer who just doesn't want to have to move his toons and whining about having his access to lowbie padders removed.
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I agree as well.
Have players make the journey to Steel or CAD without the need to change the fundamentals of AE (ie. keep the ability to do L1 missions).
I think there's been some misunderstanding here. I'm not proposing to restrict AE TO level 25 and up, I'm saying that someone has to get at least ONE character up to level 25 on their account before AE access is granted. Then if they wanted to, they could roll up a new level 1 and jump into AE right that moment.
That's what I was saying.
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One thing though: The villain side starter area stinks. The snakes are one of my least favorite groups in the game. I relish the idea of using AE to level past Kalinda/Burke (though Burke has some decent missions).
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I agree, but if you've played the game before you should know how to run to the AE building in Cap or grab a teleporter there. It isn't hard. Players who want to do this can do so. This isn't much of a sacrifice to get the AE buildings out of Mercy and Port Oakes so that new players to the game experience the real game before AE.
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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.
-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.
-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.
-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.
-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.
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Don't forget that dev-created content is full of fed-exes and hunts in another zone, defeat-alls on large maps, and all sorts of other time-sinks. AE missions avoid time-sinks.
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These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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It does have downfalls. You level slower, if you are doing missions designed for story and not maximum rewards. There is no mission complete bonus, no arc complete bonus, and patrol xp doesn't get used.
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I think the 2 suggestions posted above that make the most sense are:
1. Remove the Auto SK
2. Make the Leader be in the lvl range of the mish.
Now having said that, I dont really think there is a problem with the AE. I honestly think a bunch of people are getting their underwear twisted over minor stuff. But....thats just me.
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I disagree. I enjoy auto-sk as it allows anyone of any levelt o team with you for AE missions IF the auto-SK for the mission is not screwy.
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I think there's been some misunderstanding here. I'm not proposing to restrict AE TO level 25 and up, I'm saying that someone has to get at least ONE character up to level 25 on their account before AE access is granted. Then if they wanted to, they could roll up a new level 1 and jump into AE right that moment.
That's what I was saying.
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That is still limiting a player the ability to experience AE right away if they wanted. I don't think this is fair. Also, this begs the question if they can even use the AE to create missions/arcs before they have a character to L25.
It's easier for the Devs and more beneficial from a player's PoV to remove the buildings from the <L10 zones than what you are suggesting.
New player experience sucks right now? Yeah, pretty much, and it does for veterans of the game such as me and my boyfriend who have been playing for a long time.
I don't really hate farming, but I would rather play the game in the way it was intended. I do lead my own teams often, but when I don't want to, most if not all want to do AE farms. Even the teams I put together (mostly redside), complain when I say regular missions and try to get me to jump back to Cap.
We pay to play with other people, and lately if I want to do that, I have to resign to Cap and the AE.
This needs fixed somehow, someway. Very soon.
~TK
restrictions are just do nothing ...so a noob would have to go too another zone "big whoop".
how bout being friendly and teaming with said noob ....cept trying restrict stuff .
also these oh noes i saw someone that didn't know how to do stuff and he was a 50 gasp .
i'm guessing that said person was capable of mental thought ..and distinguishing if they wanted to be where they were .
but you know what ,im guessing the devs are just gonna end up taking exp outta AE cause people keep complaining about others and the farms are gonna go back to grandville and peregrine
Maybe they could remove the AE building from Galaxy City and Atlas Park. If they want to do AE missions, they can go to King's Row or another zone that will soon become "the popular zone for AE".
But if its not in AP and GC, then the new players won't know about it immediately (or at least won't be bombarded with broadcast requests for AE teams) and will get a chance to do regular content without distractions.
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I doubt that just pulling it out of Atlas will do it; the lowbies will simply move to other lowbie zones.
At least in Steel a level 1 is going to encounter problems getting around unless they have a pal with tp. It's that risk vs. reward thing: with AE in the lowbie zones, they have big rewards with NO risk.
I say let's make them work for it a bit, like when they had to hike that level 2 all the way to PI. Let's give lowbies incentive to stay in Atlas and learn how to play a bit. They in no way, shape or form NEED to have an accessible AE building - in fact that is way too much temptation for them to withstand.
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Agreed, if we used to take new characters to PI to get a PL going to steel canyon or skyway wouldnt matter. Heck I can remember running level 2s to portal corp in PI with no teleport help and no sg bases and pocket D portals etc. Simply put people that want the PL are going to get to where they need to be to get it, unless you level restrict every zone and you simply just die at the gate when you attempt to enter a level not your equal.
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Just addressing a few points I've seen in the thread:
[*]I wouldn't care about removing the AE buildings from the various lowbie zones - although villainside it's not like people use the ones in Mercy or Port Oakes in any case (I occasionally go there because they're quiet).
[*]Replacing some of the AE buildings for player-created "libraries" in the low level zones would be good; then you could cover some of the things like the guides, a few general wiki things, and so on. It would likely go underused but it would be very nice to see some of the things that forumgoers take for granted as readily available in the game itself for the people who didn't even know there was an official forum.
[*]Even more annoying contact pop-ups that take up a spot on your contact list and never go away is the worst idea I've heard about this. There's a tutorial that explains the normal operation of the game already, I don't need each and every alt that I make having a nuisance popup every time. I already hate it enough at level 5 when I get the Architect Manager popping up for an essentially useless tour that just has you go talk to contacts that are there for you to talk to all the time anyway, has to be in one specific zone, and other than getting rid of a contact on the active list has no other function whatsoever. On the other hand, the little "day job recruiter" type doesn't bother me and I'd much rather have the AE manager changed to this type of contact so I can decide if I want to waste the time or not.
[*]With the amount of focus placed on the Mission Architect as the "MMO new shiny" by the dev team, I doubt any of these suggestions will happen - preferred though they may be.
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I have a somewhat different take on this.
It's not AE, per se, that's causing noobs not to learn how to play their toons. (The "bubble farms" are an exception to this, but I assume that's an exploit that will soon be removed, and it's a significant enough of an exploit that I suspect that the ban stick may be wielded as well.)
I think it's the effects of always playing in 8-person teams, often in 8-person teams where higher-level characters are carrying a significant percentage of the weight.
Unlike big SG teams where lowbies are sidekicked, there's no teaching going on, much of the time. In a decent SG, lowbies are taught to play even if they are gaining XP at a much, much faster rate than they might otherwise be able to. In an AE PUG with 8 people, someone will only say "do this" or "don't do this" if they see something egregious.
For instance, I saw a level 40 tank in AE the other day who didn't take his smash/lethal shield (and thus dying nearly every mob). My expectation is that if he were running with an 8-person SG group rather than a PUG, someone would have said something VERY early in his career as a tank. As it was, nobody in the team said anything about it until *after* he left the group; several of us had noticed the power choice problem, but nobody wanted to criticize. (I don't think it was a "concept build" issue, as the tank seemed like an idiot in general. Also, frankly, if you've got a concept build that doesn't include an S/L shield in a mission of primarily S/L enemies, you shouldn't be trying to tank it.)
Even without level disparities, in a team of 8, one person's deficiencies are often well-hidden, especially when the mission is easy.
I like the placement of the AE in Mercy. You can get there if you know the way but you have to traverse the city if you don't. Forces you to learn a bit more about the landscape. That said, rather than removing the AE from Atlas, simply move it to a higher level part of the city. While it doesn't solve all problems, I think it is a more likely option due to the amount of promotion they've done concerning the MA.
Rather than have the Mission Engineer popup at level 5, make him pop up when you enter an AE building. This way it's less of a annoyance for those with no interest in AE and it's less of a misguided enticement for newer players. Adding to that, rather than point to Atlas and Mercy, have the Mission Engineer guy in Kings and PO. It's still the AE but by encouraging travel it subconsciously shows the players more of the game. This will also help introduce them to Mayhems/Safeguards since that contact is added to your nav as you first zone in.
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1. Remove auto-SK. Not a perfect solution but it'll lower AE farms to the efficiency of any other farm in the game.
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Yes folks, it is with great reluctance that I admit that we have actually reached this point.
Auto SK is BREEDING STUPIDITY wholesale amongst newer players.
Seen last night on a team: a level 47 Tanker who was actually doing... not too bad.
teamate 1: Hey 47Tanker [not his real name], you hold aggro really well, nice job.
47Tanker: LoL whut's aggro?
*headdesk*
As far as removing the AEs from Mercy and Port Oakes, we can do that - but the problem is that, well, AE farming is not a problem redside, and especially not in those zones. I am sure it happens some; but it is not the swarming anthive of PLing that we see in Atlas.
In fact redside could almost use extra incentives to get players over there, but I digress. The auto-SK feature does need to be removed; people farmed just fine under the old SK system and the same could hold true for the MA. These extreme rewards have got to go, and I am worn out with the concept of level 2s being able to pick up level 54 boss farms and thinking this is going to work. This is a tool that they lack the skill to wield.
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We pay to play with other people, and lately if I want to do that, I have to resign to Cap and the AE.
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Join a server global channel if you haven't already. This will facilitate teaming outside of AE.
I play on Liberty which is a lower population server and finding teams isn't a problem. I also play on Virtue and it is not at all a problem there.
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Agreed, if we used to take new characters to PI to get a PL going to steel canyon or skyway wouldnt matter. Heck I can remember running level 2s to portal corp in PI with no teleport help and no sg bases and pocket D portals etc. Simply put people that want the PL are going to get to where they need to be to get it, unless you level restrict every zone and you simply just die at the gate when you attempt to enter a level not your equal.
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This response misses the point the thread is making entirely.
Moo's points are not about the PL vs. anti PL debate. He is talking about new players--not new characters for experienced players who know the game inside and out. B_I is suggesting, with support of some others including myself, that by putting a small and only marginally inconvenient gate on the AE PL farming opportunity by removing the buildings from the lowbie zones, only more experienced players in the know -- i.e. folks who have at least leveled one character the slow way into the range of Steel Canyon or Cap Au Diable -- only those folks will be rushing off to the train or ferry to jump into AE.
As you state yourself: such a run when compared to the old sprint to PI at level 2 is really not THAT big of an inconvenience. But a brand spanking new person in Paragon wouldn't know how to get there. This then allows brand spanking new people (not characters!) to be funneled into some more slowly paced and controlled developer content as they still get a handle of the fundamentals of the game.
The complaint is that many new players find themselves getting blind invited onto Atlas AE farms and learn to farm before they learn to play. If I came to this game fresh and found myself being ordered to door camp on a farm whilst I get powerleveled, I think I'd ask "Is this all there is in this game?" And I'd seriously consider extending my subscription beyond the initial 30 days.
Personally I think B_I's suggestion to remove the AE buildings a reasonable compromise to help keep the lowest of the lowbie zones geared towards new player experience and canon content.
My feeling is that any solution has to take into account one thing: The devs want the player to be able to level 1-50 in the MA. It's shown in the loading tips and it was touted as a feature when the AE was being released, so I don't honestly think that any solution that takes out the ability to do this will be seriously considered.
First off, I like the idea of scrapping the AE buildings in the lowbie zones. Ideally, a new player should be able to use the MA, but not necessarily know about it until level 10, when they're introduced to the AE contact.
Secondly, while I understand the motion to remove the ability to autoSK, I don't necessarily agree with it in this form. It's not unheard of to have arcs with level ranges that are all over the place, even in this age of being able to set the level range. What I would offer is instead of totally removing the AutoSK, instead a character who has been autoSKed receives no rewards. This way, someone can still show off an arc they like, or that they might have made to their friends, but they are obligated to either SK those friends to make their time worthwhile or have their friends accept that they're solely there for the story.
Admittedly, this would probably cause the return of the bridge tells, but it also accomplishes two things:<ul type="square"> [*] PL teams would have to work harder to get running[*] Lower-level mission arcs would become more appealing, since they would be in a level range that lowbies would get XP from.[/list]If PLing were still to be a problem, or the bridge tells were getting out of hand, the next logical step would be to simply remove rewards while SKed in an MA mission. That's not really where I'd like to go from the start, but would be a possibility if the devs needed to escalate.
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I think poster did the only thing that can be done from player side. Take new players under your wing and show them what is going on.
Overall from game perspective I would say the only thing you can do is provide better game documentation (WITH the game not via on line Wiki-anybodya, IMO you should be able to buy and play a game without going to a 3rd party to explain the basics of the game to you).
The other thing is to make a badge for reaching say 20 the first time (given to all characters once one has achieved it). No one without that badge is allowed in AE. That way you will either get exposed to more of the game or you will have choosen to let someone PL you, which is a poor choice and we all live with our bad decisions.
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These extreme rewards have got to go, and I am worn out with the concept of level 2s being able to pick up level 54 boss farms and thinking this is going to work.
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Well. Level 2s can try to do so, but if they do, they're going to get mauled.
Even a bunch of lowbies trying to take on all LTs tends to go really badly.
It's worth some moments of comedy every time you find a team of lowbies that insists "we're a good group, we can do it!"
You'll note that the unspoken social contract is, for the most part, eliminating lowbies in high-level AE; team leaders are now refusing to carry dead weight, or even less efficient team make-ups. Thus all those broadcasts for level 54 boss farms, players level 40+ only, etc.
What currently appalls me is the bubble farm efficiency. I got blind-invited to an AE today, was told to come to the mission for a surprise, and in the time it took for me to politely explain to other people that I don't do bubbles and I wasn't going to stay, I'd picked up two full blobs of XP -- a vastly, vastly faster kill rate than I'd expected.
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My feeling is that any solution has to take into account one thing: The devs want the player to be able to level 1-50 in the MA. It's shown in the loading tips and it was touted as a feature when the AE was being released, so I don't honestly think that any solution that takes out the ability to do this will be seriously considered.
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OK all well and good, BUT... have the Devs explicitly stated that they want you to level your first character from 1-50 within the MA?
To my knowledge, they have not.
Thus, level-gating the MA to "at least one character on the account reaches level x" or putting the MA buildings in midlevel zones would not prevent 1-50 leveling... but you WOULD have to expend some minor effort at the start of that character's career (or level someone else 'the old way' to a predetermined point first).
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That's why I suggested unlocking access on the account until you get a character to a certain level. Then people can still USE AE in Atlas, Galaxy, etc. but not until they've "played the normal game" a bit.
I think removing those buildings from those zones will just cause the newbies to go to the other zones to get to them.
When people can't team with others because they are using AE and those people don't have access to AE, they will do one of two things:
1) Play the first 25 levels normally and learn the game or...
2) Make the CONSCIOUS decision to be powerlevelled to level 25 to unlock it.
And if they choose to be power leveled to unlock AE, well then they get what they deserve if they still don't know what they're doing.