New player experience sucks pretty bad right now
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 22:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.
-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.
-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.
-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.
-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.
These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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Well said. I really think the answer is just lower (not necessarily drastically) AE rewards. People who play for story and aren't focused on leveling won't care, but the farms go bye bye.
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And all the farmers go back to using missions in PI or Granville like they did before the AE missions, so whats the difference.
I hate to say it but frankly im getting tired of the MA getting blamed for the state of the game. Its funny that in one thread everyone seems to think that the new games like DCUO or CO are going to kill the game due to how long this one has been out and how tired of the game people are getting. But then in another the MA is the death nail of the game because its making no one want to play.
Fact is farmers have always farmed, players and story lines have always attracted the other crowd. I have, i will admit been spending alot of time in the MA. But why? Well simply before the MA i was getting pretty board. I have played for 5 years, i have seen everything and done everything over and over. The MA gave me the opprotunity to quickly finish off leveling some Alts I had mostly lost intrest in playing for whatever reason. Essentially its wasting my time until Going Rogue is released and i get some new content that i havent played through before.
Everything goes through cycles. But overall if people are spending their 15 a month, and choose to spend that time in the MA, i dont see why that needs to be "fixed". What exactly does the MA offer me that a normal farming mission doesnt? Frankly it allows me to actually have a higher threat level when i am running both my accounts then i otherwise would have. Having 2 characters in a mission that only spawns Lt. and Bosses, and has like 20 ambushes is much more challenging the running the TV missions even on highest difficulty. So yes even though i am farming and possibly getting slightly higher rewards then from another mission, i am doing it with also a higher threat then i would doing it on a 2 man team in any other way. So frankly i DONT have to take into my missions people to pad it, or to get a good SK like i would in a normal mission. So honestly the MA IMO leaves more open players. I ignore tells all the time to take on players i dont know because now i dont need them. I would probably take 2-3 more players into a normal mission taking them out of the pool for story teammers to play with doing it the old way.
Only read the first few posts, but I'd say the only way to really fix the lowbie experience would be to require AE be unlocked by EITHER hitting lvl 30 OR having your 3 month vet badge.
With this either/or idea it would allow players who have experienced normal non-AE content to start in the AE from level 1 once they've been playing the game for at least 3 months. For newer players they simply will have to play traditional content until they hit 30.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
I don't know if it's already been said, but here's my opinion on AE-
Take experience completely out of it, and leave drops the way they are. It's getting to be way too much seeing most of the new players only learning AE.
My take on the standing of AE in the game-lore was that it was a virtual reality experience, so why have it give any xp at all? But then if you go with that logic, it shouldn't give drops either. Which, if that were to happen, most people would probably go back to normal missions, which would make the Market not as dry also...
So overall IMO, AE should have no experience gain, and have it be at least one of the way the Devs envisioned it to be- a fun place to create and share stories
This thread makes me feel sick.
Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?
And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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And all the farmers go back to using missions in PI or Granville like they did before the AE missions, so whats the difference.
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New folks have to learn what PI and Grandville are before they get powerleveled. And as you know, there isn't a farm in PI that's as good as the stuff AE makes.
Listen, lower the rewards and you can leave creativity free. People who want to have a mission full of Green Mitos, who cares if you can't earn much exp. Same with Comm Officers. You can have a map of them right now, but it's not worth any more than any other map full of minions.
Lower the rewards, AE gets used for what it's intended to be used for.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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This thread makes me feel sick.
Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?
And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.
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A patient tells his doctor, "It hurts when I move my arm like this." So the doctor says, "Don't move your arm like that."
If the thread makes you sick, then don't read it. But the fact remains is that whether you agree or not, this is a real problem for the long term health of the game. AE distorts the experience of the game. This isn't about nerfing farming. Hell, I don't care if people farm TV missions or portal missions until their eyes bleed. I don't even care if vets like you farm AE until your eyes bleed.
But newbies need to learn what the game has to offer before they choose that path. Right now, AE is the draw du jour so new folks don't even know what's out there.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
What i dont agree is the "they need to learn". Nobody needs to do anything.
I dont care about farming. I actually cant stand more than 1 run of any kind of farming mission, be it normal content or AE. I play mostly TFs. From time to time i go hunting on the AE for something funny.
Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE. People that "decide" that they "know" whats best for everyone.
Thats what makes me sick.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE. People that "decide" that they "know" whats best for everyone.
Thats what makes me sick.
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I see people expressing an opinion, but I haven't seen anyone state that their beliefs represent objective truth.
Perhaps the sickness came from what you had for dinner? 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Perhaps the sickness came from what you had for dinner?
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Probably so... Pizza...
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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The solution is simple. You know how EATs unlock at level 50, right?
Well, don't allow a new account to access AE until they get any single character to at least level 25. I think that's fair, and will give them time to learn the game. And I think 25 is just fine to open up access to AE.
Once you get a character to 25, then AE is unlocked for the whole account.
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I said this in the I15 thread, and was flamed for it, shame though, i thought it was a good idea
Moving the AE buildings out of the low level zones will not impede the ability to level from 1-50 within AE. It only will require a short run and then a train or ferry ride. That argument is null. If a new player picked up the Architect boxed edition and specifically wants that a "Where's the a AE building?" in broadcast will get him/her the answer. So will adding the information to the tutorials.
I referred a friend in LOTRO to COH today. I specifically warned her away from the AE PL teams in Atlas and Cap Au Diable. I told her to avoid AE until her trial was over and she had explored the game first. I want her to learn about the fun of the game not get sucked into the morass that is AE PL/farm that awaits to drag down the new and unsuspecting player.
I pity anyone who picks up the game and has no one to warn them. AE will totally ruin the experience. This is absolutely not how it should be.
Get the AE buildings out the lowbie zones if you care about the game.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
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There are several good ideas here weather any redname will look further into this is anyones guess. AE buildings are neat and new, but they could easily get moved out of zones for new players to experience the game, and have a few memorable expereinces of neat regular events which you only get to experience the first time you ever play.
AV
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Well my last post was banned so I am going to try and be a little more diplomatic about this. AE has definately changed the game experience. Especially for new people. Now, despite the attempt at stopping AE farming a lvl 1 toon can get to lvl 50 in less then 2 days, give or take. Not only that but its almost impossible now to get teams that are non-AE. I really think there is a serious problem with the game right now. I think that the attempt to let players generate content is back firing and it is ruining the game for new players. Ever since AE has come into existance the prices on the black market have skyrocketed. Take this example; "A new guy playing the game for the first time, he either plays the game solo cause he can not find a team or he goes the AE route and never learns to play his toon correctly. If he wants to get IOs for his toons they are beyond his reach so what does he do? He either goes to a website and buys influence which exaserbates the AE problem or he gets on an AE farm himself and farms. But its the farming that is ruining the game. Cause when no one plays the game itself there are less rare recipe drops, and prices go up. Supply and demand. Now to afford the new prices one will farm or buy influence. When you buy infamy or influence it keeps the farmers in business and the problem just perpetuates itself." So if I was this new player I would not be playing this game very long. 1st, I as a new player can hardly ever find a team and 2 I can not afford stuff on the BM. This is just my perspective on the state of the game now. I have been playing this game since i2. It took me 6 months to get to lvl 50.
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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This.
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This ^3
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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This.
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This ^3
[/ QUOTE ]This will do nothing.
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This thread makes me feel sick.
Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?
And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.
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A patient tells his doctor, "It hurts when I move my arm like this." So the doctor says, "Don't move your arm like that."
If the thread makes you sick, then don't read it. But the fact remains is that whether you agree or not, this is a real problem for the long term health of the game. AE distorts the experience of the game. This isn't about nerfing farming. Hell, I don't care if people farm TV missions or portal missions until their eyes bleed. I don't even care if vets like you farm AE until your eyes bleed.
But newbies need to learn what the game has to offer before they choose that path. Right now, AE is the draw du jour so new folks don't even know what's out there.
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Look i think its safe to say that alot of the "new" people coming to the game at this point are really new. In so much that they have friends playing, maybe played several years ago or whatever.
However farming and power leveling are not a unique experience to just COX. Pretty much every MMO has had it in some form or another. And anyone trying this MMO that has played any other and taken part in farming and PLing, are goign to be smart enough to come to the forums and find out whats what.
There is creativity i agree with maintaining and some things i do think should have been nerfed. Comm officers etc. But i think as it is, the AE offers rewards that are equal to the rewards in the normal game. The difference is what i can create. If i create a map that spawns LTs and Bosses in equal numbers to minions, why should that be nerfed. Risk v reward says that fighting spawns of Lts. is more dangerous then fighting spawns of minions.
The real thing comes to the public perception. Farming is taking center stage in the debate, when sometimes is really a question of challenge level. I do farm, i am not going to lie. But i have also used the MA to find missions that are just plain difficult, that make me think, and really push my characters to the limits. Unfortunately to achieve this many times that again are farming missions. But frankly if i could set the normal difficulty slider on the 5th setting and run a mission set for 2 player 100 times and never die unless i just simply am sleeping at the keyboard, but set the difficulty slider on 2 and run a MA farm and die every couple runs, obviously one is more difficult and i SHOULD be getting higher rewards for doing that mission.
So if people want to solve this delemia, why not do it from a positive light. Like say reward those that are running story arcs. Say if you run a arc with 3 missions, each mission has to have atleast 1 different enemy group, 2 different objectives in each mission and no duplication of objectives, so you will have to have atleast one kill all mission, one blinky w/boss, etc. And give like 3-5 merits for completing the arc. So essentially give those that are using the MA for its intended purpose a better reward, then if people still want to farm they are doing so for less a reward. However i dont think changing XP or influ or presitge is the answer, its giving something more for using it as intended.
Cause frankly nerf xp and you see a big new feature gather dust like PVP does now. No one, even the newbs will want to run missions if they think that the MA hampers their characters development. Then all the story tellers will be complaining that they made a super duper arc a month ago and have no plays on it.
Also keep in mind that some time back when radio and paper missions were introduced many complained no one wanted to run arcs anymore. Why run all over paragon to do an arc if you can do radios in the same zone? And what happens but merits get introduced and suddenly people want to run arcs again, oroborus gets even more popular because there is now a bigger reward to be earned then simply 1 single bonus for a 5 mission story arc completion.
The devs need to find a reason to make players want to come out of the farms, many will always take the path of least resistance, the question becomes how watered down do we want the standard game to become to achieve the goal of playing as intended?
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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE. People that "decide" that they "know" whats best for everyone.
Thats what makes me sick.
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I see people expressing an opinion, but I haven't seen anyone state that their beliefs represent objective truth.
Perhaps the sickness came from what you had for dinner?
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But the fact remains is that whether you agree or not, this is a real problem for the long term health of the game.
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So is that an objective opinion or objectve truth, cause i thought fact ment it was a truth?
As I have posted in the Suggestion topic.
When you ding level 5, have a Detective/Broker pop up as a contact like the Mission Architect advising the player of options open to them (i.e. get a radio/paper to do missions).
When you ding level 10, have the College Dean from the university pop up as a contact for his Enhancement Tutorial arc.
When you ding level 20, have Icon/Facemaker pop up as a contact asking for help. Have City Rep or Kalinda/Burke pop up with the Cape Mission as well.
When you ding level 30 & 40, have Icon/Facemaker ask help again.
Part of the problem is the players who have only played AE Missions have no clue about the rest of the game. The few that do venture out of AE with high level characters and have no clue how different the rest of the game is from AE are surprised by it.
I was on a team with an apparently AE Baby (from the badges I saw), who started a radio mission that was too high a level and too high a difficulty for the team that resulted in multiple teamwipes.
After the team leader finally reduced the difficulty, the team leader had no clue that the mission had to be reset and couldn't figure out how to reset the mission, even with helpful suggestions from other team members of what alternate mission to pick to switch missions. After about 10 minutes of this, they finally figured out how to switch missions, but didn't figure out how to switch back, they just said, "Sorry, new mission up" and took off to new mission.
Providing contacts in the rest of the game will show that there is more to COH than AE, and those who are curious, will venture out at various levels to check it out.
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If he wants to get IOs for his toons they are beyond his reach so what does he do? He either goes to a website and buys influence which exaserbates the AE problem or he gets on an AE farm himself and farms.
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Or he uses the AE tickets he earns to buy the recipies and salvage he needs to make his IOs(which both are pretty cheap ticket wise to begin with) and then slots his own toon using the universities. Sells anything random that drops he doesnt need to boost his money, and buys anything else he needs.
Or maybe even he saves up 3700 tickets buys a level 35-39 gold drop gets a miracle +recovery and sells it for 100million and never worries about money again.
See thing is you dont know. And frankly IMO market prices have gotten better since the AE because more people are taking random rolls and putting up for sale the things they dont want or need. So really only Purple rec to me are the really really really bad ones anymore.
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Cause when no one plays the game itself there are less rare recipe drops, and prices go up. Supply and demand.
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I have exactly 4 purple rare sets spread acrossed 18 level 50 characters (also playing since the begining mostly). NOTHING in this game requires a player to have to have a rare drop, NOTHING! Its fun sure. But you know how i got the money for those rare sets?
In the first couple week of the MA it seemed that almost everytime i redeamed tickets i would get either a LOTG +recharge or miracle +rec IO. It was weird cause frankly i have NEVER gotten one of either of those naturally in all my play time previously. So after a couple weeks i had like about 900 million from selling a few of those (kept about 2-3 of the LOTGs) So i finally decided whatever like there is anything else to do with the money and spent it on the purples i have been wanting.
So in order for me to get what i wanted i probably put 12-14 highly sought after and kinda rare drops into the blackmarket. So I fail to see how the markets will dry up. On top of that probably put some 30 less rare drops into the markets as well.
Just because the purples are expensive doesnt mean the economy is broken. You want to complain about the cost of purples then complain to the devs about their rarity, the AE is not really effecting that one way or another.
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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.
-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.
-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.
-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.
-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.
These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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This person asked "why does it not have any of these disadvantages?"
I suggest that it would be better for everybody if the regular content were made more convenient. The hero SO stores are pointlessly inconvenient, and before AE the tendecy of doors to be locataed at distant locations in other zones already led many teams to use scanners as their primary content.
I've attempted to run the basic hero content before and it seriously is not an asset to the game as is. Not only that but it is just about solo exclusive beause it's hard to find people willing to do that rather than scanners or whatever.
And seriously, what was Atlas Park before? Sewer teams. Trying to get a PUG that will do the super inconvenient level 5 maps is hard to start with. The team is of little use to those who aren't the person getting the maps, and rarely are any of the team willing to stay long.
I think it would be worthwhile for the devs to go through those, some of which are pretty neat and would make cool team content, and bring gameplay up to villain standards. In any situation that makes sense to the story, move the doors to the same zone as the NPC. Most importantly, set them to give out phone numbers after 1 job.
I'd also give the newbies some sort of 1-hour charge self-rez that they can use until level 10.
That inconvenience was intended to keep people playing longer, but I think that most everyone would agree that removal of such annoyances, and opening content that many would not do otherwise, would do more for subscription times.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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What i dont agree is the "they need to learn". Nobody needs to do anything.
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I am sorry, they DO need to learn. Not knowing how to play the game is going to create friction between know-nothing AE babies and veteran players, when these two try to team. This is actually happening now.
This is like saying people who want to play a card game can just sit down with card-sharks and start playing without knowing the rules, because its all entertainment and who needs to learn about entertainment...? Do you think this would be an enjoyable experience for the card-table newbies? Do you think they'd be welcome at the card-table? Do you think the card-sharks are going to be all patient and helpful and hold their hands through the game? they might be.... some of them.
I damn sure wouldn't bet a dollar on it.
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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE.
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I don't want my game "stained" by the ignorance of level 50 AE babies. Evidently that's where you and I differ.
Teaming with these people is NOT ENJOYABLE.
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So is that an objective opinion or objectve truth, cause i thought fact ment it was a truth?
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To paraphrase Obi Wan, it is true from a certain point of view. 
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Do you think they'd be welcome at the card-table?
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They're bringing money and don't know how to play?
Uh, yeah, they'd be welcomed.
That probably wasn't the best analogy for you to use.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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What i dont agree is the "they need to learn". Nobody needs to do anything.
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I am sorry, they DO need to learn. Not knowing how to play the game is going to create friction between know-nothing AE babies and veteran players, when these two try to team. This is actually happening now.
This is like saying people who want to play a card game can just sit down with card-sharks and start playing without knowing the rules, because its all entertainment and who needs to learn about entertainment...? Do you think this would be an enjoyable experience for the card-table newbies? Do you think they'd be welcome at the card-table? Do you think the card-sharks are going to be all patient and helpful and hold their hands through the game? they might be.... some of them.
I damn sure wouldn't bet a dollar on it.
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Its the attitude of some people, always trying to say that theirs is the only truth, and that their vision of the game is sacred and cant be stained by the AE.
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I don't want my game "stained" by the ignorance of level 50 AE babies. Evidently that's where you and I differ.
Teaming with these people is NOT ENJOYABLE.
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all the more reason if they cut out exp in AE im out ...
they messed up pvp in i13 so i don't do that any more and i never really enjoyed running in teams ...with all the people that told others how to play there own character or hey can you fill,bridge, door sit...
or all the other rude tells but i don't care about that stuff.
the issue isn't noobs ...the real issue is players having problems getting pugs started .
well be friendly and show people the ropes...
i mostly play mm's and run solo because ....i don't like teams or the drama...right now AE has more content than anyone can shake a stick at, if they cut out being able to level and turn it into a ouroboro .
i will be 
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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A better solution: make the level of the AE mission dependent on the level of the zone, the same way that radio missions are. That is, if you're in Atlas, you can only play AE missions that are up to level 10. If you're in KR, you can run AE missions up to level 15. In PI and GV you can get any level mission.
That means that newbies have to go to PI or GV to run those auto-SK-to-46 farming missions.
It'll hearken back to the "good old days" of PLing at Portal Corp, and reduce the double whammy of AE and costume contests in Atlas.
[/ QUOTE ] You really should send this to a dev.