New player experience sucks pretty bad right now
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 22:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm not missing anything. Thanks for attempting to tell me what I perceive.
I know its about new players... the ones getting sucked into ae couldn't care less. a few may but the majority are just the PL meh nao types. I see it every day with many trial toons begging my main to level them.
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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And Mercy, Port Oakes, Peregrine Isle and Grandville. Also, any zone it makes no sense to have a "public entertainment facility" in... such as the Rikti War Zone.
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
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ZERO influence/infamy awards for AE mobs.
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Moar redundant ideas with no actual logic behind them plox.
Seriously though, I agree with alot of the stuff being said here. There is more of a need for ouro portals to go to every hero zone than there is a need to have an AE in each. The thing that really strikes me as odd is that the devs should have seen all of this miles away...I mean it's not difficult to figure out a formula to a farm mission in the AE, nor is it really time consuming, so I was really suprised to see certain maps/mobs/difficulties allowed. I'm not saying I was or am against this, but I do know how great of an overall effect this could have on our game.
Removing AE from Galaxy, Atlas, Kings might help...but then again if you go red side lowbies already flock to Cap, even the new guys don't have trouble figuring that out. So I don't know if wasting dev time is the best solution in this case, I'd much rather have a limit on leveling in the AE per day. I mean even if you did set it though, there'd still be large groups of people who would hit the lvl cap then switch onto different toons. Then within 5 days they'll have 3 new 50's instead of 1 new 50 after 2...
Fixing the AE is like trying to fit the theory of relativity into multi dimesional theory...[censored] just don't fly.
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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And Mercy, Port Oakes, Peregrine Isle and Grandville. Also, any zone it makes no sense to have a "public entertainment facility" in... such as the Rikti War Zone.
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There are AE buildings in PI and Grandville? Could have sworn there weren't.
I'm fine with it in the RWZ, as it's the only co-op zone it would make sense in.
It CAN'T be in CIM as that'd make the most illogical sense of all.
I'm find with them being in Port and King's. The starting zones they should be moved out of.
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The thing you don't want to do is completely preclude (Nor make it too much of a hassle for) people to take a level 1 character right to the AE.
Why?
Because the AE is an excellent tool to use for creating and running character/team campaigns entirely designed around specifics pertaining to those characters.
Is this an attraction for all players?
No
However, it sure is a big attraction of the AE concept.
Actually, here is my problem with the "AE".
The very fact that we're calling it AE and not the Mission Architect...
Why?
The entire idea of making the Mission Architect part of this virtual reality cooperation (AE) with AE buildings and all of the super conveniences that were listed in this thread (immediate vacinity of contact, mission door, inspirations, hospital, selective drops!!!) really goes against the practical application many of us expected before the "AE" slant was announced.
The missions should have sent you to a specified type of door (Chosen with the system that the scanner missions use).
People also shouldn't have to go to some virtual reality arcade to do these missions.
These are just my opinions...
However, it is somewhat funny to me that these were issues I (And others) had with the whole AE slant and the manner in which they were implementing the MArc (The whole AE building thing was quite a shock to me).
I can see needing a special place to create a contact (Although I strongly believe they should allow a Base item to serve for this as well).
I'm not sure why they didn't want the AE missions competing with Scanner missions for doors/mission entrances. Maybe it would be too big of a conflict?
The kicker is...
If they had shied away from making the big fancy AE buildings that now serve as central hubs for teaming...
The mass usage and content of the MArc would likely have been more focused on what the "true goal" of the system was about: Creative Stories/Missions made by the players for the players, for the enjoyment of the stories/missions/action tailored for the player's tastes, character's concepts, and/or certain playstyles.
Maybe the farming ways would have spilled over, regardless.
However, without the central hub, I doubt it would have become so prevalent.
All that being said... I'm not trying to rail against the Devs nor am I crying doom or really complaining about what the playerbase is doing with the AE stuff.
My only concern is really that they never make changes to preclude players from being able to partake in a group of characters that progress entirely through AE created content that is 100% designed around their concepts. That requires xp, funds, drops and full access from level 1.
That is a huge selling point to the MArc concept.
The arcade location was the first strike against that (But easily overcome... Just go there and have the fun once inside the missions. It would just have been greater to not have to overcome that, but it's just a little suspension of immersion for some).
Would moving it out of Atlas Park really accomplish much?
Villains use Cap Au Diable.
*shrugs*
I like the ideas of boosting story arc bonuses (and finally giving that bonus to all team members) and mission complete bonuses.
Some sort of xp cap per AE mission... Is a good idea in theory, but very difficult to find the correct number. It's a dangerous game there... and if set at the correct number, would probably not stop what is going on. If set too low, it could kill the fun of those not abusing things (And are boss missions abusing things anyway?).
I do think guiding people towards other content before new -players- (Not characters) get swept up into the AE arcade madness is a great idea... I'm just not sure how to accomplish that.
Some sort of super compelling and exciting first mission available (But not required) at the start?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I think increasing the xp/inf/prestige from normal content would probably be the best way to go along with a slight increase to mission completion xp. Especially the xp from bosses and lieutenants. Oh and remove hami mitos from AE.
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Increasing these things is a bad idea from a design point of view. The more items you increase the harder is to take away later, especially in regards to static things like xp caps. Where there is exceedingly high caps in place, like influence, and these are relationary to the player-base (ie. economy) these inter-ralationary models will become broken in time.
It's far better to lower (or do nothing) the parts that are having the earliest negative effect than changing things which are outside the scope of the issue.
In short, bad idea for numerous reasons.
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Well its either nerf AE rewards or buff normal content. Which do you prefer? A buff is usually more favorable because a nerf would have to be pretty massive to actually make people think of doing normal content. Unless they want to make it so you can't do boss farms anymore and have a balanced minions, lieutenants and bosses. And that would probably do more harm than good.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.
-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.
-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.
-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.
-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.
These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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In theory, this is all balanced by there being no "end of mission" reward in terms of XP/Influence/Prestige. In practice...not so much.
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Custom critters are more difficult than their canon bretheren
No access to badges or badge related abilities
No earnable temp powers
There are end of mission rewards; just not XP/Inf
No end of arc rewards
No trainers in the AE buildings
Incomplete inspiration list at the insp vendor
No mission auto-complete (I think)
There are balances...
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I'm fine with it in the RWZ, as it's the only co-op zone it would make sense in.
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*coughcough*PocketD*coughcough*
I still scratch my head at the decision to put such a thing in a war zone...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I'm fine with it in the RWZ, as it's the only co-op zone it would make sense in.
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*coughcough*PocketD*coughcough*
I still scratch my head at the decision to put such a thing in a war zone...
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Oh, so now soldiers at war can't have a place to relax? Real nice. Yeah, reeeeal nice.
Have to agree with the above poster. When I first heard about MA/AE I thought the missions would be able to be placed in the game. I was disappointed to find out that wasn't possible.
Allowing creators to put their mission doors in preselected spots in each zone (pick 10-12 zone doors per zone--you could even then include CIM in this for missions set in that time period) would in fact push the rp apsect more.
Imagine an author creating a story about Portal Corp being under attack and to do the actual arc, the team has to actually go to PI, clicks on a the PC door and then zones into a map with custom mobs fighting with PPD. You get the general idea.
The question is, with everything else the devs are doing, how hard would such a thing be to implement?
Castle? BaBs? Posi?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'm fine with it in the RWZ, as it's the only co-op zone it would make sense in.
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*coughcough*PocketD*coughcough*
I still scratch my head at the decision to put such a thing in a war zone...
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True. Forgot about that one.
As a personal aside I wouldn't be caught dead in Pocket D on a certain RP server that will remain nameless without turning off my local chat.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I think increasing the xp/inf/prestige from normal content would probably be the best way to go along with a slight increase to mission completion xp. Especially the xp from bosses and lieutenants. Oh and remove hami mitos from AE.
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Increasing these things is a bad idea from a design point of view. The more items you increase the harder is to take away later, especially in regards to static things like xp caps. Where there is exceedingly high caps in place, like influence, and these are relationary to the player-base (ie. economy) these inter-ralationary models will become broken in time.
It's far better to lower (or do nothing) the parts that are having the earliest negative effect than changing things which are outside the scope of the issue.
In short, bad idea for numerous reasons.
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Well its either nerf AE rewards or buff normal content. Which do you prefer? A buff is usually more favorable because a nerf would have to be pretty massive to actually make people think of doing normal content. Unless they want to make it so you can't do boss farms anymore and have a balanced minions, lieutenants and bosses. And that would probably do more harm than good.
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I wouldn't mind having balanced mobs 1 boss, 1 lt, 1 minion. However they COULD NOT do that unless the tripled the size of data missions can hold. Custom Critters take up too much room already.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The concept isn't what its being used for though. That is the major issue. They designed a system with idealistic expectations and now its being used in ways they did not wish it to be.
Whether its nerfing rewards, or exp in some way, intended use needs to be enforced if they want it to succeed the way they envision it.
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What changes should we make to avoid this kind of bad NPE?
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When you see this
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"Looking for a team to fight enemies that hit back!"
and
"Aren't there any people here my level to team with? Where do I need to go to team with people under level 5?"
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Type this /invite
encourge your firends to do the same.
NPE imprves for all.
Sure today is the first day of the rest of your life. But so was yesterday. And look how that turned out.
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The concept isn't what its being used for though. That is the major issue. They designed a system with idealistic expectations and now its being used in ways they did not wish it to be.
Whether its nerfing rewards, or exp in some way, intended use needs to be enforced if they want it to succeed the way they envision it.
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or face the fact that the way they envision it may not be what the playerbase wants.
They can do much better things than nerfing the rewards. numerous BETTER ideas have already been stated by multiple people in this thread. I'm leary of any suggestion that could outright kill the AE, especially since we spent so many months without new dev content while they worked on building the damn thing.
EDIT: The overall goal should be to keep it as a valuable alternative leveling path while also keeping it as a valuable story-focused path. The additions in issue 15 helped a bit: specifically tagging.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Also want to add that there should be incentives to at least try out the regular content from lvl 1 before you jump straight into MA. Perhaps bumping the merit rewards for regular missions?
Or even more radically: Allow each regular content mission to drop 1 merit for the mission owner upon completion, not just dropping merits at the end of an arc. This would also help mission leaders spread around "who's mission we do next" on regular teams as well.
EDIT: Another option is to up the drop rates in non-AE missions by 5-15%. Xp would be the same but the chances at loot would go up. This would also give regular content a nice incentive without mucking aobut with the game's xp curve yet again.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
For me, not getting arc merits (unless I've got the same arc) while on a team is a pretty big turn off to teaming regular content. Why bother with that when I can earn mounds of tickets while teaming in the AE? Sure I do solo the regular content, but that doesn't help the teaming issue.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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I never understood why the Developers decided AE buildings needed to be in so many zones. Out of all the things to put into practically ever zones, they did AE?
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Well I have to agree with this statement. AE everywhere? Why not a second University on Red side instead?
Low level Villains already have to go to a 3rd level zone to get to the tailor (are actually expected to for Arachnos ATs) and noone is wailing about that, so I assume moving the building out of low level zones won't slow down veteran players at all. It could however slow down newbies provided someone isn't providing teleports.
This game is quite hard to learn at first. Keeping the number of things to learn down is a good thing. More than once I've seen a 1st time player drop into the middle of a Rikti Invasion 
. Imagine thinking that lagfest with dozens of players and mobs running around is the normal game.
I've invited them to team and said "Aliens are invaiding, just fight explain later". They end up with a couple levels of experience (and maybe a badge or two) and totally dazed.
The real answer is players looking out for new players rather than thinking that a new player just wants to play like a veteran would and knows their options.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I didn't specify the path I just used those as examples.
If the player base doesn't want the story based levelling concept as it was intended then all thats left is a power levelling service. Any focus after that concession is pretty much pointless.
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I never understood why the Developers decided AE buildings needed to be in so many zones. Out of all the things to put into practically ever zones, they did AE?
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Well I have to agree with this statement. AE everywhere? Why not a second University on Red side instead?
Low level Villains already have to go to a 3rd level zone to get to the tailor (are actually expected to for Arachnos ATs) and noone is wailing about that, so I assume moving the building out of low level zones won't slow down veteran players at all. It could however slow down newbies provided someone isn't providing teleports.
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Another radical option is to have a cheapo (5000-50000 inf) 5-10 use at a time AE teleport becaon sold in Wents or stores. And then place the AE buildings in one central location. If you can teleport to them pretty much whenever you want, it really doesn't matter WHERE they are.
Also has the added advantage of by the time a newbie gets that much inf they'll at least have SOME basics down. Not at all attached to the inf price btw.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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In theory, this is all balanced by there being no "end of mission" reward in terms of XP/Influence/Prestige. In practice...not so much.
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OK, I have to weigh in here, because I've been doing some analysis based on my own play experiences. For my own play style, which involves soloing or small teams running story arcs, the PvE experience is significantly more rewarding than the AE.
Why? There are several factors, but the biggest one is patrol XP. The AE gives you no benefit from patrol XP, unless you're defeated, which is something I rarely encounter. A 50% boost to enemy defeat XP in PvE is huge, and although you can drain it, it's replenished quickly if you (a) play infrequently and/or for short periods of time, or (b) switch characters relatively often.
Without patrol XP, AE and PvE reward rates would probably be relatively equivalent. I think XP gain is faster in PvE because mission and arc bonuses more than balance out travel times (given Ouroboros, base transporters, and the Mission Teleporter power), but that's balanced by the inherent advantages of tickets. With patrol XP, however, regular PvE is just plain better.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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I didn't specify the path I just used those as examples.
If the player base doesn't want the story based levelling concept as it was intended then all thats left is a power levelling service. Any focus after that concession is pretty much pointless.
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That's a question that just might finally have to be asked.
My fear is that we won't like the answer.
The forums WERE already asked that question and the general opinion (too lazy to find the specific thread) was that most forum goers WOULD NOT use an insta lvl 50 option.
However, I can only imagine what the answer will be if you asked the playerbase IN-GAME. Especially now with all the AE babies and new players in this game that seem to have come online, in the last month or two.
Now as to a "jump start service" for vets (start at lvl 22 or level 10) or a mini pl service that started you at lvl 10 or 15, that would be an interesting question to ask.
EDIT: Another question (as an aside) is, if NCSOFT offered a lvl 50 Arena/PVP Zone-ONLY character (with full IOs of your choice--excluding purples) for say $59.99, would folks purchase it?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I have a different idea I haven't seen suggested in this thread yet (sorry if it has):
Expand the tutorial zone.
Add branching dialogue and contacts so players can learn more about their specific Archetype. Allow more leveling, up to level 5 or maybe even 10 should they choose to hang around there long enough.
Basically the tutorial zones would become the new "lowbie" zones, focused on the new player experience, which experienced players can easily opt out of should they choose (and head straight to the AE building if they want.)
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I have a different idea I haven't seen suggested in this thread yet (sorry if it has):
Expand the tutorial zone.
Add branching dialogue and contacts so players can learn more about their specific Archetype. Allow more leveling, up to level 5 or maybe even 10 should they choose to hang around there long enough.
Basically the tutorial zones would become the new "lowbie" zones, focused on the new player experience, which experienced players can easily opt out of should they choose (and head straight to the AE building if they want.)
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A certain OTHER upcoming game has a similar setup. Or so I have heard. 
This is a good idea.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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At least scanners mix up the NPCs too. AE stuff? the Boomtown map covered with 500 of the same scantily-clad female Dual Blader - the exact same one. Same costume. Same hair. Same everything. BORING! Scanners are a relief in comparison.
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Now, now... some of them use the Steel Canyon map and Freakshow Lieutenants, and then there are the bubble farms.