New player experience sucks pretty bad right now
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 22:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
1. Remove auto-SK. Not a perfect solution but it'll lower AE farms to the efficiency of any other farm in the game.
1.5. Enforce level limits on arcs, as with Task Forces. I'm on the fence about this since it's rather harsh, but it would basically end farming as we know it.
2. Flag certain enemies (Comm Officers, Cimeroran Surgeons, Mitos, etc) to appear only one per group, the way it works in the rest of the game. No point in farming a low-yield crop. I still can't figure out why it doesn't work this way in MA arcs, it must be non-trivial to code for some reason.
3. Shuffling the AE buildings themselves around isn't really going to fix anything without other changes. All it's going to do is revitalize the Taxi SGs from before the days of Safeguard/Mayhem travel powers. 50s will ferry lowbies from Atlas to the AE building in Peregrine if they have to.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
I've basically stopped playing due to teams being non-existant for me (virtue, by the way). My options have been solo or try and find a farm team.
As I've said before, I agree, we need the AE buildings out of low level zones so newbies don't feel that PLing is the only way to play. More experienced players will be able to make their way to AE buildings in other zones quite easily.
I believe AE buildings in lowbie zones will and are doing more damage to the long term viability of the game than any other change in CoH's history.
I've decided to send a PM to Positron on the subject.
I suggest anyone else who feels this way should too.
Please note, I'm not asking for a petition or to spam Posi, I just think that going to him directly would be a sound option and show that we are actually seriously concerned about this.
It'll take a multi-pronged attack. Remove some AE buildings, tie AE to veteran badge status, dedicate someone to look through AE and remove farming arcs more vigorously from the AE arc listings, hire someone who's played the game and can recognize that enemies who don't shoot back should be removed from AE enemy lists, then do so; randomly hammer a few of the worst exploiting accounts (okay, that last part isn't strictly necessary, but it feels right. And reprogram a Predator drone to take out RMT sellers' web servers.
That's a start, anyway.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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This.
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Yeah.
Let's also Nuke 'em in Mercy and Port Oakes.
Edit to add
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This means Atlas Park, Galaxy City, King's Row, Mercy Island and Port Oaks. People keep citing "But I've done it levelventy billion times!" and conveniently forget that the POINT of this is to keep NEW people from getting sucked into the cycle of powerlevelling to 50
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Agreed. Those people who have done the lowbie Dev content oodles of times should know how to get to where the AE buildings are safely.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
-Remove AE buildings from Atlas Park, Galaxy City, King's Row, and Mercy Isle. Yes, lowbies that want to experience AE will have to go to Steel, Skyway, or Port Oakes, but it's honestly not that hard. I've ran to Icon on the far end of Steel as a level 2 many, many times before. This will restore the "opening" zones to what they once were and should be. I recommend destroying them during a Rikti raid 
-Cap AE rewards per 10 levels. I know it sounds bad, but if we set it at a very, very high number all it will do is ask that for at least 2 levels out of every 10, a person go experience non-AE content. The cap will exist in level ranges, such as 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, and 41-50. If a person reaches 8 levels inside a level range entirely in AE, all rewards inside AE are capped until the next level range. A simple pop-up will show upon reaching cap "You have reached the limit for rewards inside AE missions for your level range. Experience, Influence, Prestige, and Tickets will resume at level 11." This does not effect level 50s at all.
Anyone remember the episode of Star Trek: TNG where the entire crew of the Enterprise got addicted to the "game" that Riker brought back from shore leave? The game was so easy almost to the point that it played itself and brainwashed the entire crew. AE has always reminded me of that
((Note: I'm not looking down on the practice of farming AE at all, I do my fair share and enjoy it. I just think it should be something that isn't clogging up our starting zones. I believe we need to restore our lowbie zones to what they once were or else this game is going to suffer.))
I'm glad we've got AE from the get-go. Hasn't changed my playstyle one bit, except that some characters do exclusively AE, some do only dev content, and some do a mix.
I could live with removing AE from Atlas/Galaxy; don't really see the need to remove it from Kings Row. New players aren't going to know to run to Kings Row anyway without doing their first contacts.
Personally, I don't see any reason to gimp AE at all; however, for the sake of argument, I could see making the AE buildings in lower level zones inaccessible until one character on your account achieves, say, level 15 or so. That would give the player enough experience at moving between zones and playing dev content to at least have a clue about standard gameplay. Or rather than level-gate, simply make playing through the Atlas/Galaxy arcs mandatory, with a contact in KR unlocking the AE, perhaps after completing your first KR mission.
One thing though: The villain side starter area stinks. The snakes are one of my least favorite groups in the game. I relish the idea of using AE to level past Kalinda/Burke (though Burke has some decent missions).
Hi Sailboat.
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tie AE to veteran badge status
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So the whole idea here is that you can tell how much experience a player has by their vet badges? Bad idea.
With 5 accounts in my house hold(one for each person), just how do you tell which person is playing which account?
60 month, 57 month and 3 almost 12.
Before I bought the last 3, everyone played on 60 and 57 accounts.
So.... just how do you know that I am not playing on the low vet account?
BC 
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I'm glad we've got AE from the get-go. Hasn't changed my playstyle one bit, except that some characters do exclusively AE, some do only dev content, and some do a mix.
I could live with removing AE from Atlas/Galaxy; don't really see the need to remove it from Kings Row. New players aren't going to know to run to Kings Row anyway without doing their first contacts.
Personally, I don't see any reason to gimp AE at all; however, for the sake of argument, I could making the AE buildings in lower level zones inaccessible until one character on your account achieves, say, level 15 or so. That would give the player enough experience at moving between zones and playing dev content to at least have a clue about standard gameplay. Or rather than level-gate, simply make playing through the Atlas/Galaxy arcs mandatory, with a contact in KR unlocking the AE, perhaps after completing your first KR mission.
One thing though: The villain side starter area stinks. The snakes are one of my least favorite groups in the game. I relish the idea of using AE to level past Kalinda/Burke (though Burke has some decent missions).
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What you're proposing is actually more restrictive than simply removing the buildings from the lowbie zones. In the removal idea a player can simply choose to run to the nearest AE and go about their merry way the exact same way as before. Your idea will force them to run certain contacts or hit a certain level.
I believe something needs to change but I think it's too late to level-gate AE.
Edit: It's also too late to tie AE access to a Vet Reward. How would you like to buy a game called "City of Heroes: Architect Edition", get home and read a pop-up "Oh by the way, Architect is a Veteran's Reward you'll get in 3 months, enjoy!"
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Alot has changed since AE moved in. I remember just a year ago waiting to see a sewer team forming so i could jump at it before it was full. Now lone people call for sewers and go unanswered. I honestly dont know how i feel about AE. Sometimes i like it to help me level through some rough spots but all in all I think it has done much more harm than good.
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This one almost seems funny to me (no offense intended). I've always avoided sewer teams; every tell I've gotten touts the great XP and fast leveling. This, of course, smacks of PLing to me. I'm in no hurry to level.
I've played well over 100 AE arcs thus far; haven't farmed or PL'd once. The idea that the only purpose of AE is to farm is less than accurate. Many of us play for the story and adventure, plenty of which can be found in the AE with a little patience.
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What you're proposing is actually more restrictive than simply removing the buildings from the lowbie zones. In the removal idea a player can simply choose to run to the nearest AE and go about their merry way the exact same way as before. Your idea will force them to run certain contacts or hit a certain level.
I believe something needs to change but I think it's too late to level-gate AE.
Edit: It's also too late to tie AE access to a Vet Reward. How would you like to buy a game called "City of Heroes: Architect Edition", get home and read a pop-up "Oh by the way, Architect is a Veteran's Reward you'll get in 3 months, enjoy!"
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Oh, I'm not proposing this. It's just an effort to think along the lines of what others are bemoaning in this thread without absolutely hamstringing everybody.
Personally, I think AE is fine the way it is. I don't see the need to remove it from the starter zones; if forumites are concerned that newbies are somehow missing out, maybe we should be creating new characters and inviting said newbies to regular teams rather than coming to the forums and trying to make the devs force others to play our way. 
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They are NEVER going to level or time restrict AE, so the ones of you singing that tune might as well learn a new song. It's one of the huge selling points of the game now. That's also the exact same reason the buildings are all over the place. They want CoX to be known for AE (in part), so taking the access away from people isn't going to happen either.
My typical method of starting a new Hero is to just street-sweep until 5, at which point a whole slew of stuff opens up. Since many options become available at 5, perhaps we could make 1-5 the "Training" bracket. No AE, only the standard contacts. After you hit 5, a message pops up describing the options avialable, inluding Contacts, Radio, Hazard Zones, and AE. At level 10, another popup appears to inform you of Positron's TF and the TF system (This should be n place anyways, frankly).
Of course, a similar thing would happen for Villains.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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1. Remove auto-SK. Not a perfect solution but it'll lower AE farms to the efficiency of any other farm in the game.
1.5. Enforce level limits on arcs, as with Task Forces. I'm on the fence about this since it's rather harsh, but it would basically end farming as we know it.
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That's actually one of the more reasonable suggestions I heard.
The AE's purpose is, among other things, to offer an altenative to Dev content, but the truth is it allows a LOT more freedoms. We aren't exactly talking about alternatives if they aren't equal. When any level 1 toon can join level 54 boss farms, there simply is no alternative, reward-wise, in the dev content. There will be an outrage, but applying Dev content rules to AE should not be unreasonable.
I don't exactly agree with giving AE the same limitations as Task Forces, but why not the same limitations as contacts? No auto-SK, and the leader must be in the appropriate level range. At least then the AE farms would be about equal to the other non-AE farms.
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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Very much agree with this. Brand new player should experience the game canon content first to get familiar with the game. Getting sucked into a blind farm invite does nobody any favors on someone's first day.
For an experienced player (who should/could have good arguments for needing/wanting/condoning farming), a level 1 or 2 run to the Steel or Skyway locations is acceptable.
Similarly, though it is a harder run--but an established SG base can make it a cinch, make Port Oakes or Cap be the first AE building.
I agree, remove AE from Atlas, Galaxy, & Kings Row on Blueside.
I believe removing it from Mercy(Maybe Port Oaks)
This gives Vets with friends & know how, to go to Steel Canyon & Cap. They can do AE all they want, while new folks can at least try go through game normally, before becoming Farm Junkies.
As for removing XP, Im very much on the fence on this. I have 3 Arc's that are all connected to each other, they are actual story & have plot & what not. Removing XP, would prevent many if not majority of CoX player base to never touch em.
Though Farms also do that 
We are on a very thin wire atm, Im sure much of the MMO Communities are watching us here & seeing how things turn out, before if ever they decide to "copy" this idea.
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon
Are sales of COH actually up or down right now? When the AE came out, sales were booming, as I understand. What does the situation look like right now?
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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I'd add Mercy and PO, but I agree 100% with this.
Right now, you get a pop-up at 5 that's an introduction to the AE Manager who gives you the AE tutorial arc. I'm thinking that ought to be bumped to 10 or 15.
I really like the idea of yanking AE from Atlas, Galaxy, KR, Mercy, and PO. Players who want to do AE will have no trouble finding it in Steel or CaD and those who are new to the game won't be bombarded by information that encourages them to go into the AE building and never come out.
Hey, Devs, could we have the Rikti concentrating their bombing on the AE buildings next weekend and then patch them to a 'rubbelized' state? It'd make for a nice little bit of in-game story -- conflict between the Rikti, Crey, and Aeon. Crey could even try to get a government bailout to cover their losses. And if, say, a MA terminal were to open in Pocket D, well that'd seem completely legit and above-level since they'd so tragically lost their buildings in those other zones!
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Are sales of COH actually up or down right now? When the AE came out, sales were booming, as I understand. What does the situation look like right now?
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I'm not sure. I do think that the AE generated a lot of bad vibes for COX, even as it attracted players. There are several forums I go to on the net where the perception is that COX became a PLing haven and all of the content has become trivial.
AE is obviously NOT being primarily used for its intended purpose and sometimes I feel like the devs put in a lot of effort in something that could have been used to improve other aspects of the game. I got a lot of backlash when I said this before AE came out...and now look at it.
When you talk about community created content in other games, it doesn't really compete with Dev content. Since Dev content in a standard single player game is done and then you move on to look for something else to do. Community created content basically fills that void of wanting more. In an MMO...the devs are going to want their content to always be relevant.
Neverwinter Nights is a great example of a single player game with great community content. In an MMO though, the devs have to care that user created stuff can outshine their content, not just in terms of storytelling, but in terms of reward. That's where the problem lies here. In NWN, it didn't matter if a player-made module bumped me from level 1 to 12 in short order. It was a self-contained story that had no impact on any other content I may or may not play.
MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
-Regular missions have contacts you have to earn/find, then continually travel to until you get their cell. AE puts the contact right next to you.
-Regular missions have doors that can be on the other end of the zone or even in another zone entirely. AE always has the door right next to you.
-If you want to go to the hospital in a regular mission it could put you hundreds of yards away from the mission door, the AE hospital always puts you right next to the mission door.
-Random missions give you random salvage and recipe drops. AE tickets allow you to more selectively choose your drops.
-If you're having to buy enhancements with influence you will have to find a vendor selling your Origin, then you'll have to wade through the sometimes oddly named inventory list (curse you Magic Origin). If you use AE tickets you travel a few feet to a single person who offers not only every type of regular enhancement, they even have a nifty menu that lets you select the type of enhancement you're looking for.
These are just a few of the examples of how convenient AE is compared to regular content. Why does AE not have ANY downfalls to balance all of its amazing features that dwarf the regular content?
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Mrs. Moo wanted to play a new scrapper this evening, so I rolled up a cold defender that I'd had an idea for. We went through the tutorial and then went to Atlas Park, simply for ease of travel to various locations. Usually we'd go to Galaxy to avoid the zone spam.
As we leveled to 5 (in a level pact), I heard several things that really bothered me. Most them would go in the farming thread, but a couple things really stood out:
"Looking for a team to fight enemies that hit back!"
and
"Aren't there any people here my level to team with? Where do I need to go to team with people under level 5?"
Before issue 14, the new player experience hadn't really changed since issue 5. Atlas was a hangout spot and a spot for newbies to get teams. The zone chatter was stupid, but zone chatter in most MMOs is stupid. For the most part, a new player could treat Atlas Park, and to a lesser extent, Galaxy City, as an extension of the tutorial and begin learning how to play the game.
With AE in Atlas and Galaxy, there is very suddenly a mix of experienced players with high level characters, experienced players with new characters, and inexperienced players with new characters. The inexperience players get thrust into activities the more experienced players are doing via AE missions.
A frequent groupmate told me yesterday he was grouping with a level 6 Kheld in King's Row doing newspaper missions. The Kheld was a new player. He'd started less than two weeks before. He was ecstatic to learn that there were other zones in the game and other stuff to do other than AE missions. He didn't know what a Taskforce or a Safeguard mission were.
This guy got really shortchanged by his new player experience. He fell in with a group of high-level players who power-leveled him to 50. His initial impression of the game is that you go into the Atlas AE bulding and never come out.
What changes should we make to avoid this kind of bad NPE?
I'd like to avoid debate topics here that should go into the farming thread. I want to exclusively focus on what steps can, should, and should not be taken to make Atlas and Galaxy more friendly and more conducive to hooking and landing new players.
If you were going to change things about the zones, what would you do?
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Make AE in 35+ zones only? Perhaps Rikti War Zone only? Like really, I understand that it is nice, but there is OTHER content and it would be nice to see people start the game actually doing it instead of skipping it right from the start.
I saw a level 50 ask in broadcast the other day, "How do I get a mission?" ... This punk obviously never left Atlas.
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My typical method of starting a new Hero is to just street-sweep until 5, at which point a whole slew of stuff opens up. Since many options become available at 5, perhaps we could make 1-5 the "Training" bracket. No AE, only the standard contacts. After you hit 5, a message pops up describing the options avialable, inluding Contacts, Radio, Hazard Zones, and AE. At level 10, another popup appears to inform you of Positron's TF and the TF system (This should be n place anyways, frankly).
Of course, a similar thing would happen for Villains.
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This is a really good idea, in my humble opinion. It makes new players experience a little bit of the dev-created content (unless they street sweep or run sewer teams, but even those tasks help new players learn some of the ropes), and provides them with a wealth of information in a fashion that they can't ignore, unlike the items that show up when they talk to a trainer. And the intro to the TF system would come in handy as well.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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AE buildings out of Atlas, Galaxy and King's Row, yesterday.
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Yes.