The LRSF is broken. Plain and simple.
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-05-24 19:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?
[/ QUOTE ] How many times can you afford to spend 50 influence on an inspiration?
Does this argument even have a point anymore? I'd like to point out a few things that are being mentioned but not actively compared.
1. [u]Merit values:[u] States TF: 38, Recluse: 25. Right there is an indication that the LRSF is obviously shorter (or comparably easier if you prefer) going by the reward formula.
2. [u]Heroes vs. AVs:[u] States: 15 AV's, 1 monster. Recluse: 18 Heroes, 1 monster. Woohoo, you fight more heroes then villains...big whoop *finger twirl* Has anyone bothered to look at the quality of one verses the quantity of the other? Only about half the Heroes encountered on the LRSF present any real treat....the other half are support-oriented AT's who do relatively little damage (Compared to states, BAB, Cit...) and has paper-like resistances that make them pathetically easy to take down if you target them first. STF you're pitted against the big 5 in the final mission...simple enough right? Anyone forgetting that all 5 primary Villain AT's are damage-oriented yet? Or that they pack more personal buffs (Mako's stacking Elude, GW's multi-heals), debuffs (Scirocco's massive -end), Status Mag (GW's uber-mag hold...a tank needs multiple applications of CM-like powers to avoid, along with her AoE intangable power) and DPS (Mako's outta-nowhere crits, Recluse and his damn towers *twitch*) then any of the heroic 'big 5' could compare with? This time, quality wins over quantity....I'd rather face the vindicators and Freedom Phalanx in one giant mess then try to take the 4 Patrons and Recluse's little posse.
3. [u]Super-team vs. PuG:[u] Heh, this part makes me smile...and not for good, wholesome reasons either. Before I'd given up on STF's (That was about a year ago), what few attempts I made at it that did prove successful were both a mix of random PuG invites and actual SG/coalition building. BUT...those successful PuG's were very, very picky about who they were inviting and yes, just like redside, they were looking for specific AT's to do specific things to help balance the team. How is that any different then sticking at least 2 VEAT's on any villain PuG SF?
4. [u]Experience vs. Common Sense:[u] If you're on a PuG LRSF...and you're the only one of the whole team that's ever done it before...where do you think that's going to lead? Or getting that last spot on a STF and realizing there's no tank...only 1 support and a blue-light special on blasters? If you sign on...and start having doubts before you even get into the first mission...get the hell out then, and save yourself a lot of grief and frustration. I have bailed on TF's before because I didn't like how the leader had built it based off my past experiences.
5. [u]States vs Recluse, My opinion:[u] I'll say what I've been wanting to say for a few paragraphs now: Recluse SF is easier...by far given the different in AT's between heroes and villains. I would rather subject myself to things like the Posi TF (since it has some actual merit in being tied to a useful accolade) then take another stab at Statesboy's TF. If you're going to PuG either TF, don't expect some half-[censored], 5 minute-throw-together, patchwork team is going to pull off any great moments in heroics or villainy. The game at that level just doesn't work like that anymore, either you learn tactics...or you die.
...did I miss anything important?
@Dispari's Personal Assistant
"I might not be 'l33t', but that doesn't change that you're still a noob..."
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1. Merit values: States TF: 38, Recluse: 25. Right there is an indication that the LRSF is obviously shorter (or comparably easier if you prefer) going by the reward formula.
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This here I see as an oversight in merit calculation. Im sure that most SUCCESSFUL LRSF's take about an hour, because it's the same superteams running them over and over and over, thus driving the completion time down. That of course does not take into account the attempts that take far longer then that, or the attempts that end in failure. It's one of the prime examples of powergamers ruining it for the rest of us.
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How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?
[/ QUOTE ] How many times can you afford to spend 50 influence on an inspiration?
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Is that somehow way easier than stocking up on purples and/or oranges and/or greens for the final confrontation in the LRSF?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?
[/ QUOTE ] How many times can you afford to spend 50 influence on an inspiration?
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But see, here's the thing: if teams have to go load up on all yellows to beat this AV, then leave mission and go load up on all purples for that AV, then leave after that and go load up on all reds.... having to do that kind of thing just screams "broken!" to me. People should not be having to leave the mission multiple times because the only way they can take down an AV is by 20 of the same Inspiration.
I don't have to do that to take down Lusca or Adamastor, and I should not have to do it in a Strike Force. A well-equipped, experienced team of well-slotted players should not have to be doing this.
I am sure many disagree, but this isn't strategy, its buying one's way through a SF. Now we all probably pretty much agree that the LRSF is not going to be readdressed in our lifetimes, but this should not be SOP for getting through a SF. I cannot think of another TF other than the LRSF where people know right off not to show up without 5 Shivans and at least two nukes per person, otherwise the SF will fail. That is just.... ridiculous. And it does not say "well balanced" to me.
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This here I see as an oversight in merit calculation. Im sure that most SUCCESSFUL LRSF's take about an hour, because it's the same superteams running them over and over and over, thus driving the completion time down.
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No no, there's a very obvious different in the time consumed by either TF/SF. LRSF mission sets are quite literally "Go smash these guys standing in the broad open"...you can't possibly get any easier then that. Compared to fishing through web parts and Security Chief's to find the correct key-holder, then wading through lab after lab, after lab's worth of spiders just to get at the AV's...come on, unless you're stealth/porting your way past all the mobs to just take down the AV's, you're in for a long.....LONG ride.
And....again, I'd like to point out that Villain AT's are more designed for dps compared to heroes (6-7 vs uhhh...2-3?), which translates to shorter times overall.
@Dispari's Personal Assistant
"I might not be 'l33t', but that doesn't change that you're still a noob..."
[ QUOTE ]
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1. Merit values: States TF: 38, Recluse: 25. Right there is an indication that the LRSF is obviously shorter (or comparably easier if you prefer) going by the reward formula.
[/ QUOTE ]
This here I see as an oversight in merit calculation. Im sure that most SUCCESSFUL LRSF's take about an hour, because it's the same superteams running them over and over and over, thus driving the completion time down. That of course does not take into account the attempts that take far longer then that, or the attempts that end in failure. It's one of the prime examples of powergamers ruining it for the rest of us.
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Powergamers didn't ruin anything for you. They just found the quickest way to complete a task. If anyone ruined anything for you, its the Devs decision to put rewards based on time of completion of said task. Don't fault players for playing the game well. Enhance your skills young padiwan.
Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?
Mr. Blonde 'Reservoir Dogs'
Haven't failed one yet.
My strategy is to find intelligent players.
My first and only experience with the RSF was on a PuG with 2 friends. Out of the 8, 3 characters were below level 50. Only 2 players on the team had done the RSF before. We had one kin, but no rad, stone brute or mind dom. We didn't use temp powers or pulling. We did wipe twice on the Freedom Phalanx, but finally beat it in 2 hours. Fun, but not too hard.
On the other hand, I've always found the STF to be harder than that. A towered-up Lord Recluse can dispatch most characters in one or two hits, and he can hit well above the softcap. On a few occasions I've been on teams where it took us more than 2 hours to get it done, because we had trouble tanking him. Ghost Widow can also be tricky on teams with tons of melee users without defense.
Most of my teams for TFs tend to be PuGs I build, and I don't do cookie-cutter teams (which, for me, means I invite whoever says "yes"). Both the STF and the RSF are challenging but fun. Dumbing down either of them would be a bad change in my opinion.
You know what? I am a moron. I hereby retract all statements about this SF being "Broken" or "Impossible". Why? Because I literally just beat it.
The difference between this one and previous attempts? A very well balanced team. We had three widows, two SS/shield brutes, a bot/dark mm, a rad/rad corr and a ice/cold corr. Also, we had a crapload of warburg nukes.
I think I realized what my problem was with these. I was being far too nice. Anyone who sent me a tell saying they wanted in, I would invite them, and with whatever AT they wanted to bring. *sigh*, I really am stupid aren't I? This time however, I made sure to craft a well balanced team.
The last mish was a breeze. We had a few deaths, but nothing close to a wipe. Mostly because we bombarded the FP with chem nukes and ourselves with bio nukes. The whole thing took slightly over an hour.
That being said, I still have a few bones to pick. I still think it is too hard. Without the nukes we had I doubt we would have succeeded, and even if we did just by a hair. If nukes are not necessary for the STF, they shouldn't be necessary here. Also, can we up the merit reward? SLIGHTLY? 30 merits would be fine.
So overall, I think my opinion is sealed on the matter. It's doable, but it requires a significant amount of prep time before hand.
After mission 4 don't exit. Drop an Ouroboros portal. Everyone go to Ouroboros.
Clean out your inspiration tray other than big candies to use instead of the following...
4 Greens, 4 Oranges, 8 Purples, 1 Awaken, 1 Break Free, 1 Green
Enter the final mission. Everyone stand next to each other. Take a deep breath. Start team buffing. Eat 4 Purples and 4 Oranges. Give a battle yell. Charge Numina.
If you don't have to stand in melee then don't stand in melee. Shoot Numina until she dies. When your inspirations blink eat 4 more purples. Use the greens or the column of Awaken, BF, Green Blue if you got to. Numina must die.
If everyone dies go to Ouroboros and try again. Take out the girls before the boys.
That's similar to how we ran the all-stalker LRSF way back in the day.
Everyone popped their tier 9, damage capped themselves on reds, and unleashed the rage on the designated target. Rinse. Repeat.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Hmm did a run on the EU servers to get a friend the Archvillain badge that he'd been trying to get for the last six months, every LRSF he'd been on had failed.
So I decided to build him a team, myself as my Bots/FF Mastermind, he was an Elec/Elec brute, Thugs/Dark Mastermind, a thermal corruptor, a Cold domination corruptor and two stalkers (which I can't remember their sets) and this was a spur of the moment PuG grouping through the badge channel on union.
No nukes, no shivans, the elec/elec was tanking. We used the 'charge in and see' approach for the Freedom Phalanx, managed to take down Numia, Sister Psyche, Synapse without any buffs but vengeance then took down the rest of the FP the second go around.
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Leave the TFs to people who actually want something close to a challenge.
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When I started reading this thread I had this sort of attitude. "leave the hard stuff hard" has always been my attitude.
... then I started thinking... "Well, it's not like redside has that many other choices." I believe that redside should be a little tougher than blueside (it is, consistently, and I believe that to be a design decision. ) But when you have only, like, five Strike Forces compared to 13 Task Forces, or whatever the numbers are, making one of them "incredibly difficult" is a problem.
The correct thing to do is add four or five more Strike Forces and leave the RSF where it is.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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1. Merit values: States TF: 38, Recluse: 25. Right there is an indication that the LRSF is obviously shorter (or comparably easier if you prefer) going by the reward formula.
[/ QUOTE ]
This here I see as an oversight in merit calculation. Im sure that most SUCCESSFUL LRSF's take about an hour, because it's the same superteams running them over and over and over, thus driving the completion time down. That of course does not take into account the attempts that take far longer then that, or the attempts that end in failure. It's one of the prime examples of powergamers ruining it for the rest of us.
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Powergamers didn't ruin anything for you. They just found the quickest way to complete a task. If anyone ruined anything for you, its the Devs decision to put rewards based on time of completion of said task. Don't fault players for playing the game well. Enhance your skills young padiwan.
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No, I agree that powergamers weren't the ones who ruined it. These same powergamers run STFs way faster than the teams I'm on could ever hope to. The difference is that non-powergamers are far more likely to complete the STF. If they fail, they can at least point to where they failed: "We couldn't beat Mako, need more to-hit buffs next time." "Couldn't beat Ghost Widow, need more ranged damage and debuffs." Whereas with the RSF, it's not just failure, it's EPIC FAIL. Your team that tore through the rest of the SF just gets annihilated in seconds on the final mission, with no indication of what you did wrong, and most people are discouraged from ever trying again.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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The LRSF absolutely needs to be changed. The chain aggro alone is the game breaker. Remove that and it would become doable. Now? Not so much. You need to employ very specific powersets or a buttload of temp powers to win.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
Once red-side has blue side ATs, the LRSF will not seem so insurmountable a challenge for a PUG. Right now the LRSF is easily doable for a well crafted team, but it's much harder than the STF for a PUG. This will change and quick with blue strength buffs and tanks.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The problem is that redside, the ATs were designed to be more soloable, more self-contained, thus, theoretically, more interchangeable. So, again, theoretically, any PuG redside should be able to beat the LRSF without resorting to uber temp powers. But that's not the case. If you have to pick and choose ATs and Powersets redside for any task, then you broke your own game design.
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I've failed One LRSF. I've failed One STF.
I've blitzed dozens of LRSFs. Ideal team doesn't need nukes at all.
My best time was with a global channel PUG, somewhere under 30 minutes.
VEATS: 0
Shivans : 8
Mind Doms: 0
Vengeance:3
Stone Brute : 0
Stalkers: 1
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The LRSF is impossible for all but the most ardent powergamers, or teams with mind doms, or scores of nukes. Either reduce the level of the phalanx, spread them apart, or remove the chain aggro rule.
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Hmm.....then I wonder how multiple teams I've been on during the LRSF was able to rush the entire Phalanx and still win? (No nukes, no mind doms....we just wailed at everything in sight)
I've been on teams with VEATS and Mind Doms as well....but the LRSF is perfectly doable without them.
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STF is easier to me, only cuz i done it over 100 times and probably failed 15
LRSF i have never failed but only done it about 20 times
re: both of your posts in this thread:[ QUOTE ]
"I might not be 'l33t', but that doesn't change that you're still a noob..."
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Never had any trouble in the STF, and every run has been a random "bring whatever you want" team.
In all fairness, I usually don't have trouble with the RSF either until people start leaving in the middle of it and the team is shorthanded at the end. My MLRSF run was a PuG without a /Stone Brute that decided to go ahead and set it since we knew we'd be able to complete it if someone died anyway (5 team members had Vengeance).
From my experience, any team can beat the STF.
From my experience, any team that brings Shivans and nukes can beat the LRSF (at that point, you're simply a carrier for temp powers).
As for the entire topic, I personally don't find the RSF too hard; but for the people that do you get better merits by running the co-ops (ITF/LGTF) and IOs are generally better than SHOs for most builds so it's still completely optional.
I would like more SFs redside, though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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They should add more SFs to red side *** hey have more choices. Maybe something with 5th Column.
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Look at the STF for instance. Quite hard with a PuG, but still doable.
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I don't see how that's any better. Ghost Widow and Mako are both troublesome units that can be a huge pain for unprepared teams. In fact, Mako can be completely impossible to kill if the team doesn't have enough +ToHit bonuses. Actually, that's probably more of a niche requirement than what's needed for the LRSF. How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?
So, unprepared teams cannot beat the STF. Likewise, unprepared teams cannot beat the LRSF. The STF may be easier than the LRSF but the concept remains the same. Throw together an unprepared team and you're going to fail.
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And What's worse is it has what I think is one of the worst Merit rewards of all TF/SF in the entire game.
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That much we can agree on. It's so disproportionate that we don't do it much anymore except just for fun (in which case we rush the Phalanx head-on). The pay is not proportional to the agony.