The LRSF is broken. Plain and simple.

For all you TL;DR people...

[ QUOTE ]
The LRSF is impossible for all but the most ardent powergamers, or teams with mind doms, or scores of nukes. Either reduce the level of the phalanx, spread them apart, or remove the chain aggro rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

That being said...

I must have run the LRSF around 20 times now...I have beaten it four times. This is not what is called good design.

Now, I know the typical arguments here. "Well it's supposed to be hard", "you need to pull them", "You need a mind dom", "bring more nukes". Well as far as I am concerned, all those arguments only underscore its poor design, and just plain unfair difficulty. Lets analyze all of these arguments closer.

[ QUOTE ]
It's supposed to be hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there is a difference between hard, and just plain unfair. Hamidon is hard. The Statesman TF is hard. Ghost Widow is hard. But all of the above examples have weaknesses that can be exploited by nearly any well balanced team. The weaknesses of the LRSF are so specific that there is no way a well balanced team can be expected to be able to exploit them. Hamidon is simple as long as you make sure all the present players know their roles and follow them. The STF has AV's that can be easily pulled apart, and as long as the tank is competent, Recluse himself can be brought down. Ghost Widow is simple as long as you stay out of melee range. There is no one strategy for the LRSF. The fact that nobody has figured out a good way to do it in nearly THREE YEARS underscores this. Now I know there are teams of ardent powergamers who can come together and run this quite easily. However, not everyone is a powergamer, not everyone wants to find the ideal team makeup every time, and not everyone wants to commit to such regularity. The same cannot be said for its counterpart the STF, which I have run almost always successfully, and always with pick up groups.

[ QUOTE ]
"you need to pull them"

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, this would be a perfect weakness, if it were not for the proximity of the Phalanx to eachother, and the bizzare aggro rules governing them. For starters, putting the members of the Phalanx so close together makes it incredibly hard to pull one member off. But under any other circumstances, not impossible. However, the nail in the coffin is that the phalanx uses "chain aggro". Chain aggro basically means that whenever one member is aggroed, the others will all come sooner or later. They may all come at once, or they may come over time, but eventually the entire Phalanx will be attacking you. This makes a pulling strategy pretty much impossible.

[ QUOTE ]
"You need more nukes"

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the few times I have seen the LRSF beaten is when every single member of the team dropped all three kinds of nukes at once. The phalanx went down in about 45 seconds. It was absolutely glorious. But an entire teams worth of nukes should not be needed. While you could make the argument that it would be a VERY WISE IDEA to have at least A FEW nukes, but making it nearly mandatory for the entire team to have them is ludicrous. Warburg nukes are by their very nature OPTIONAL. And if something that is optional becomes REQUIRED, then its optional nature is no longer present. To further underscore this point, I have seen a run where four bio nukes and six chem nukes were dropped, and we still didnt manage to take down a single phalanx member.

[ QUOTE ]
"You need a mind dom"

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the only surefire ways to beat the LRSF is to have a mind dominator put the entire freedom phalanx to sleep, and then pull one member away, thus negating the chain aggro rule, and allowing the sf to be completed with ease. But requiring one specific archetype and power combo is incredibly bad design. it assumes the team has access to something it does not. The simple and obvious fact is that not every team has access to a mind dominator. The fact that dominators are the least played archetype in the game next to kheldians only underscores this.

So, as we can see, the LRSF is damn near impossible. Any challenge should not lock out all but the most powerful and experienced players. The ideal challenge should be beatable by everyone. Granted, they might have to try quite a few times, but in the end, it should be possible to beat.

So what can we do about this? Well the following three suggestions may help.

1. REMOVE THE CHAIN AGGRO RULES.

If the chain aggro rules were removed, then it would still be hard to pull the phalanx apart, but not impossible. I expect that even the best pull would still get at least two of the phalanx, but at least it would not result on the rest of the phalanx bearing down on the team.

2. SPREAD THE PHALANX OUT.

Lets look at the STF for an example. In it, you must fight all four of the patrons. At first, it looks like they are close enough that you have no choice but to fight them all at once. However, they are actually placed JUST SO, that they can be easily pulled apart. This is of course, counteracted by them being level 54, which is something touched on in suggestion 3. Spreading the Phalanx out would allow for far easier pulling.

3. REDUCE THE LEVEL OF THE PHALANX.

As of right now, the phalanx is level 53. Now, the difference between a 53 and a 52 is not huge, but big enough to be noticeable. For example, consider the fourth mission of the LRSF. In it, you must fight five of the Vindicators at the same time. However, every time I have run the LRSF, everyone charges in, and manages to take them all out on the first go. It is worth noting that when the LRSF was first introduced, the Vindicators were level 53, and many teams could not get past them. Now that their levels have been reduced, most teams have hardly any problems.

So, there is my little schpeal. Hopefully some of the devs will take notice and make a few changes. I have great faith in this dev team, and hope that they will do at least something.

Oh, and one more thing? 25 merits? Hamidon takes an hour too, and gives 40 merits. For something that is far harder then hamidon, I expect a better reward.

---

You know, I've completed the LRSF multiple times on the highest difficulty without a single nuke or Dominator.

---

[ QUOTE ]
You know, I've completed the LRSF multiple times on the highest difficulty without a single nuke or Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then please explain how. I would love to know.

---

Squid, just bring 2-3 nukes. Its all but impossible to seperate the FP; so why fight it? Puns intended. Just have everyone bring a nuke or two and "strike force complete!"

As for the devs changing anything about this SF, I don't see it happening. After all, people have been begging for that bugged Tech to be fixed for literally years now, and to the best of my knowledge this has yet to be addressed.

I think they just don't care. So if they don't, I don't. *goes off to Warburg....*

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I've completed the LRSF multiple times on the highest difficulty without a single nuke or Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then please explain how. I would love to know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure thing.

First of all the team makeup is usually at least 2 VEATs. Often 3. I always take my Widow. Past that we get Corruptors, Brutes, and anything else we can fill up with. Past 2 VEATs everyone is soft-capped, so it's good to seek out debuffs, +RES, and heals, and good Brutes who can take hits. It's good to have enough buffs, debuffs, and heals going.

A random PUG isn't going to handle this sort of thing if you don't have enough support for the team. One Corruptor and nothing else isn't going to cut it. If you're just throwing together a random team of people, it's not going to work.

MISSION 1:
This is my favorite. Me and often one other person form the bomb team. The rest of the people (6 or 7) go to complete other objectives while I bounce into towers and find glowies. Usually we finish around the same time and meet up to take down Crimson, Ballistae first.

MISSION 2:
This one is rather simple. We bounce to the titan and take it down, which doesn't take too long. After that it's simply working to the end. Clear all enemies before taking down the AV. Make sure someone competent gets the gun.

MISSION 3:
Future Phalanx is easy. It's pretty simple to get 2 at a time, but I've done 4 at a time before. Basically just focus on the squishier ones first. This mission doesn't take long.

MISSION 4:
Fun mission. It's a straight sweep up to the group. There, the kill order is: Malaise, Swan, Luminary, Mynx, Valkyrie. Valkyrie only has to be killed once, but after she rezzes I break away from the group and stealth up to find the glowie. After that, we either regroup to re-kill Valkyrie or ignore her and go to Liberty. She's not too hard to kill.

MISSION 5:
This is really short but it's against a ton of AVs. Basically everyone buffs up and summons pets. We don't always have a lot of pets, but there's usually 1-2 Shivans summoned. We rarely have nukes. Temp powers are good. After that we usually try to pull but if it doesn't work we don't fret. On several occasions we've fought the entire group at once. It's important to obey the kill order though: Numina, Sister Psyche, Synapse (he autohits), Positron (debuffs), Manticore, Citadel, BABs, States.

Never done the final battle without at least one death, but deaths don't discourage me. I throw around Vengeance and we pop rezzes when people fall. If the team wipes, it's okay as long as something dies. I've only had one total team wipe against the Phalanx though.

Anything beyond the baseline helps, meaning Shivans, Vanguard Heavies, nukes, temp powers, inspirations, and whatever. I always pop Demonic going in because the first few kills are the roughest. But I've definitely done it on max diff without nukes without bothering to pull, with no Doms.

---

I hear ya Squid.

I've been on some runs that have been interminable. Multiple nuke and Shivan runs, people quitting.

Other runs have been butter. Generally on those I'm on my Mind/Fire, friend on his Brute and we gather 5 Corruptors and a few Masterminds. And get Shivans.

The reward for LRSF is TOO LOW.

Fer cryin' out loud they promised what, a year's free subs to the people that could beat it in Beta?
Yeah, yeah, some groups storm in in 30 minutes. Big farkin' deal. Some people attacked Hami from under the Hive to get HOs in the day too.

When you consider it's probably easier for the Villains to get a Hami raid going for their HO OR Merits...

Squid, the only thing you gotta hope is that with Going Rogue heroes can switch over and help out. That's lame, it's borderling condescending but it might be what balances crap out.

And this is me, I love villains, especially Dominators.
Raise the Merit reward to 30 or 35 on this thing.
It's the essence of frustration for some groups AND you need to complete one of its missions for an Accolade requirement.


As for "how" I've heard of some teams bringing multiple VEATs and storming this. Couple of Crabs and Fortunatas and some Corrs. Not sure, fastest run here was 50 minutes and we had 2 Fortunata, 4 Corr, 1 Brute and 1 Mind Dom.

---

Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes

I'd really like to do that SF, but this doesn't sound something that's easy to do for a PUG, and that's pretty much all I can run a SFs or TFs on...

And I do think that if a successful team HAS to have one particular AT-- whether it's a Dominator or VEAT-- then that should be looked at.

---

My COX Fanfiction:


Blue's Assembled Story Links

It is far from easy on a PuG. Only attempt with a PuG if everyone is willing to do a Shivan run and a nuke run beforehand, as needed. You may have a prayer of sucess with plenty of temp powers.

---

[ QUOTE ]

The LRSF is impossible for all but the most ardent powergamers

[/ QUOTE ]

Get skillz. I've completed it with non power-gamers in the past. It's probably a little harder than the STF, but eh, we villains have more ways to cheat.

---

Doom.

Yep.

This is really doom.

Then I think that Mr. Squid is right.

This thing needs a revamp.

---

My COX Fanfiction:


Blue's Assembled Story Links

don't know what you're doing, but i've run a couple pre-veat and we've had anywhere from an insane time at it to no trouble at all

---

[ QUOTE ]
For all you TL;DR people...

[ QUOTE ]
The LRSF is impossible for all but the most ardent powergamers, or teams with mind doms, or scores of nukes. Either reduce the level of the phalanx, spread them apart, or remove the chain aggro rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

That being said...

I must have run the LRSF around 20 times now...I have beaten it four times. This is not what is called good design.

Now, I know the typical arguments here. "Well it's supposed to be hard", "you need to pull them", "You need a mind dom", "bring more nukes". Well as far as I am concerned, all those arguments only underscore its poor design, and just plain unfair difficulty. Lets analyze all of these arguments closer.

[ QUOTE ]
It's supposed to be hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there is a difference between hard, and just plain unfair. Hamidon is hard. The Statesman TF is hard. Ghost Widow is hard. But all of the above examples have weaknesses that can be exploited by nearly any well balanced team. The weaknesses of the LRSF are so specific that there is no way a well balanced team can be expected to be able to exploit them. Hamidon is simple as long as you make sure all the present players know their roles and follow them. The STF has AV's that can be easily pulled apart, and as long as the tank is competent, Recluse himself can be brought down. Ghost Widow is simple as long as you stay out of melee range. There is no one strategy for the LRSF. The fact that nobody has figured out a good way to do it in nearly THREE YEARS underscores this. Now I know there are teams of ardent powergamers who can come together and run this quite easily. However, not everyone is a powergamer, not everyone wants to find the ideal team makeup every time, and not everyone wants to commit to such regularity. The same cannot be said for its counterpart the STF, which I have run almost always successfully, and always with pick up groups.

[ QUOTE ]
"you need to pull them"

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, this would be a perfect weakness, if it were not for the proximity of the Phalanx to eachother, and the bizzare aggro rules governing them. For starters, putting the members of the Phalanx so close together makes it incredibly hard to pull one member off. But under any other circumstances, not impossible. However, the nail in the coffin is that the phalanx uses "chain aggro". Chain aggro basically means that whenever one member is aggroed, the others will all come sooner or later. They may all come at once, or they may come over time, but eventually the entire Phalanx will be attacking you. This makes a pulling strategy pretty much impossible.

[ QUOTE ]
"You need more nukes"

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the few times I have seen the LRSF beaten is when every single member of the team dropped all three kinds of nukes at once. The phalanx went down in about 45 seconds. It was absolutely glorious. But an entire teams worth of nukes should not be needed. While you could make the argument that it would be a VERY WISE IDEA to have at least A FEW nukes, but making it nearly mandatory for the entire team to have them is ludicrous. Warburg nukes are by their very nature OPTIONAL. And if something that is optional becomes REQUIRED, then its optional nature is no longer present. To further underscore this point, I have seen a run where four bio nukes and six chem nukes were dropped, and we still didnt manage to take down a single phalanx member.

[ QUOTE ]
"You need a mind dom"

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the only surefire ways to beat the LRSF is to have a mind dominator put the entire freedom phalanx to sleep, and then pull one member away, thus negating the chain aggro rule, and allowing the sf to be completed with ease. But requiring one specific archetype and power combo is incredibly bad design. it assumes the team has access to something it does not. The simple and obvious fact is that not every team has access to a mind dominator. The fact that dominators are the least played archetype in the game next to kheldians only underscores this.

So, as we can see, the LRSF is damn near impossible. Any challenge should not lock out all but the most powerful and experienced players. The ideal challenge should be beatable by everyone. Granted, they might have to try quite a few times, but in the end, it should be possible to beat.

So what can we do about this? Well the following three suggestions may help.

1. REMOVE THE CHAIN AGGRO RULES.

If the chain aggro rules were removed, then it would still be hard to pull the phalanx apart, but not impossible. I expect that even the best pull would still get at least two of the phalanx, but at least it would not result on the rest of the phalanx bearing down on the team.

2. SPREAD THE PHALANX OUT.

Lets look at the STF for an example. In it, you must fight all four of the patrons. At first, it looks like they are close enough that you have no choice but to fight them all at once. However, they are actually placed JUST SO, that they can be easily pulled apart. This is of course, counteracted by them being level 54, which is something touched on in suggestion 3. Spreading the Phalanx out would allow for far easier pulling.

3. REDUCE THE LEVEL OF THE PHALANX.

As of right now, the phalanx is level 53. Now, the difference between a 53 and a 52 is not huge, but big enough to be noticeable. For example, consider the fourth mission of the LRSF. In it, you must fight five of the Vindicators at the same time. However, every time I have run the LRSF, everyone charges in, and manages to take them all out on the first go. It is worth noting that when the LRSF was first introduced, the Vindicators were level 53, and many teams could not get past them. Now that their levels have been reduced, most teams have hardly any problems.

So, there is my little schpeal. Hopefully some of the devs will take notice and make a few changes. I have great faith in this dev team, and hope that they will do at least something.

Oh, and one more thing? 25 merits? Hamidon takes an hour too, and gives 40 merits. For something that is far harder then hamidon, I expect a better reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Learn to play.

---

[ QUOTE ]
It is far from easy on a PuG. Only attempt with a PuG if everyone is willing to do a Shivan run and a nuke run beforehand, as needed. You may have a prayer of sucess with plenty of temp powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is precisely why I haven't bothered with the LRSF since it was introduced.

It is broken. It is horribly designed.

---

Be well, people of CoH.

Yeah, this is why the LRSF has never been looked at. A few powergamers who always go for the "uber" powersets and play with people who do likewise and therefore have no trouble finding a stone brute, a rad, a kin, a therm, and a couple of VEATS rush through the thing and go into threads like this with nothing to contribute besides "learn to play."

And yes, I've beaten the LRSF with no cheating (temp powers, stacking vengeance) or mind doms. It was a static team, that had a stone brute, a rad, a therm, a kin, and two VEATs. The STF can be done with PuGs. The LRSF may not be broken, but it's BAD DESIGN.

---

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

While it's Far from a cakewalk, I've completed it on a DM/DA and Elec/Elec Stalker and a Fire/Fire Dom as well as my Brute. (and all those runs were for the large part sans Nukes/Shivs) It's one of those things that you just have to accept that there are going to be times when things go [censored] no matter what you do.

Though I DO think the merits need to be upped a bit.

---

"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat

I've gotten the master RSF with no dom and no stone brute. Just me as a SR brute, a thermal, cold, rad, kin, widow and 2 others I can't remember. At the end i pulled all the AV's and had little prob with them. It's really not that hard. Most people mess up and try to pull them The best way I've seen is to pull all of them to one of the boots of Atlas. Then just survive and leave everyone else far away and range it.

---

Pinnacle: Hold my beer. Watch this!
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.
MA arc #117314!! Try it nao!!

End game content is suppose to be a bit harder then normal isn't it?

---

[ QUOTE ]
End game content is suppose to be a bit harder then normal isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit, yeah. Mostly, I'm just ticked off that the STF is so much easier, and yet gives more merits.

---

Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

[ QUOTE ]

Learn to play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Learn to not be a complete jerk, and offer a suggestion.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is far from easy on a PuG. Only attempt with a PuG if everyone is willing to do a Shivan run and a nuke run beforehand, as needed. You may have a prayer of sucess with plenty of temp powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is precisely why I haven't bothered with the LRSF since it was introduced.

It is broken. It is horribly designed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hardly think that the self-proclaimed hardest challenge in the game should be easy with a PUG, nor do I think that constitutes brokenness or horrible design.

If you want easy with a PUG, play the other 99% of the game. Leave the TFs to people who actually want something close to a challenge.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Hamidon is hard. The Statesman TF is hard. Ghost Widow is hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. No, it's not. No, she isn't.

---

- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)

Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.

It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I've completed the LRSF multiple times on the highest difficulty without a single nuke or Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then please explain how. I would love to know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure thing.

First of all the team makeup is usually at least 2 VEATs. Often 3. I always take my Widow. Past that we get Corruptors, Brutes, and anything else we can fill up with. Past 2 VEATs everyone is soft-capped, so it's good to seek out debuffs, +RES, and heals, and good Brutes who can take hits. It's good to have enough buffs, debuffs, and heals going.

A random PUG isn't going to handle this sort of thing if you don't have enough support for the team. One Corruptor and nothing else isn't going to cut it. If you're just throwing together a random team of people, it's not going to work.

MISSION 1:
This is my favorite. Me and often one other person form the bomb team. The rest of the people (6 or 7) go to complete other objectives while I bounce into towers and find glowies. Usually we finish around the same time and meet up to take down Crimson, Ballistae first.

MISSION 2:
This one is rather simple. We bounce to the titan and take it down, which doesn't take too long. After that it's simply working to the end. Clear all enemies before taking down the AV. Make sure someone competent gets the gun.

MISSION 3:
Future Phalanx is easy. It's pretty simple to get 2 at a time, but I've done 4 at a time before. Basically just focus on the squishier ones first. This mission doesn't take long.

MISSION 4:
Fun mission. It's a straight sweep up to the group. There, the kill order is: Malaise, Swan, Luminary, Mynx, Valkyrie. Valkyrie only has to be killed once, but after she rezzes I break away from the group and stealth up to find the glowie. After that, we either regroup to re-kill Valkyrie or ignore her and go to Liberty. She's not too hard to kill.

MISSION 5:
This is really short but it's against a ton of AVs. Basically everyone buffs up and summons pets. We don't always have a lot of pets, but there's usually 1-2 Shivans summoned. We rarely have nukes. Temp powers are good. After that we usually try to pull but if it doesn't work we don't fret. On several occasions we've fought the entire group at once. It's important to obey the kill order though: Numina, Sister Psyche, Synapse (he autohits), Positron (debuffs), Manticore, Citadel, BABs, States.

Never done the final battle without at least one death, but deaths don't discourage me. I throw around Vengeance and we pop rezzes when people fall. If the team wipes, it's okay as long as something dies. I've only had one total team wipe against the Phalanx though.

Anything beyond the baseline helps, meaning Shivans, Vanguard Heavies, nukes, temp powers, inspirations, and whatever. I always pop Demonic going in because the first few kills are the roughest. But I've definitely done it on max diff without nukes without bothering to pull, with no Doms.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's nice that you've laid things out, and that you've got a system that works well, but, respectfully, you missed Squid's point. He's saying that without specific powersets, or temp powers, or both, the LRSF is too hard to be accomplished by the average group. While you might have mitigated the difficulty of the SF itself, you're still using several specific combos to do it.

---

[ QUOTE ]
It's nice that you've laid things out, and that you've got a system that works well, but, respectfully, you missed Squid's point. He's saying that without specific powersets, or temp powers, or both, the LRSF is too hard to be accomplished by the average group. While you might have mitigated the difficulty of the SF itself, you're still using several specific combos to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to respectfully disagree with that. My post is neatly laying out how me and my friends usually do it. We usually rely on VEATs as the primary means of mitigation, because most of us have VEATs.

We don't require VEATs. The soft-capped DEF helps a lot though. We don't have to have VEATs. FF MMs, Cold Corrs, or Traps users would also toss in good DEF for people to share. On top of that we also usually have +RES, heals, and other various buffs/debuffs to go with it.

No, it doesn't require specific combos to beat. It just requires enough team support that you can withstand fighting lots of AVs. The easiest ways to get around that are +DEF and +RES. Now, if by "LRSF requires specific combos to beat" you mean "Why do I have to take support character? Why won't my team of 8 stalkers beat it?" then sure, it requires a specific combo to beat. I guess.

Anyone can do the LRSF as long as you're willing to put together a team that's capable of handling it. That requires good +DEF, +RES, heals, buffs, or debuffs that will pull a team through. It doesn't matter what that support is, but I favor VEATs personally.

I can't think of a SINGLE "specific powerset, or temp power" that's required for the LRSF. Various things help, and some more than others. But no, you aren't going to beat it just by forming a ragtag team of random people without taking steps to make sure you have enough support.

The only thing that's "required" for the LRSF is "sufficient support for the party considering you'll be fighting lots of hard AVs."

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is far from easy on a PuG. Only attempt with a PuG if everyone is willing to do a Shivan run and a nuke run beforehand, as needed. You may have a prayer of sucess with plenty of temp powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is precisely why I haven't bothered with the LRSF since it was introduced.

It is broken. It is horribly designed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hardly think that the self-proclaimed hardest challenge in the game should be easy with a PUG, nor do I think that constitutes brokenness or horrible design.

If you want easy with a PUG, play the other 99% of the game. Leave the TFs to people who actually want something close to a challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it should be EASY with a PuG, it should be quite hard. But the LRSF is a whole other level of brutality. Look at the STF for instance. Quite hard with a PuG, but still doable.

---

[ QUOTE ]
"Why do I have to take support character? Why won't my team of 8 stalkers beat it?" then sure, it requires a specific combo to beat. I guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

A team of 8 Stalkers did beat it once before I9. Took about 5 hours and required stacking vengeance as well as shivans and nukes.

I understand challenge, I also understand difficult(heck I'm going to beat Ninja Gaiden 2 on Master Ninja difficulty)but I think the LRSF is incredibly unfair to most players of the game.
And What's worse is it has what I think is one of the worst Merit rewards of all TF/SF in the entire game.

---