The LRSF is broken. Plain and simple.

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The problem is that redside, the ATs were designed to be more soloable, more self-contained, thus, theoretically, more interchangeable.

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I've personally never agreed with this line of thought. The red side ATs IMO aren't any more solo capable than any blue side AT other than the Defender. Red-side ATs were built around ideas moreso than AT roles or soloing. It doesn't even appear to me that the devs thought much about how the game was actually played when creating red-side ATs at all.

I don't think this is a bad thing, mind you. For example, Brutes are awesome because the devs had this picture of an AT that gets stronger as it gets mad. Cool. Stalkers, which should be awesome, fail even now, because the "silent, unseen killer" just isn't applicable to 90% of the game. They do better after their buff, because upping damage into the stratosphere tends to do that.

Blue side ATs were built and designed around the mechanics of the game and thus are substantially better at the game's tasks. I've no doubt that villainous Tankers, Blasters, Defenders, Controllers and Scrappers will have little problem with the LRSF.

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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

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Learn to play.

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QFT

The its too hard everyone should be able to do it attitude is destroying the game

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QR

6 Pages of people whining over something that is not only doable but the masters of is doable.

Why not just populate the SF with level 1 snakes and make Statesman a LT. That way everyone could do it.

No wonder we lost 89 badges.

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Just did the LRSF the other night with 8 Corruptors. My AR/Traps was the tank and never died in the final mission (and only once on the whole SF).

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How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?

[/ QUOTE ] How many times can you afford to spend 50 influence on an inspiration?

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Is that somehow way easier than stocking up on purples and/or oranges and/or greens for the final confrontation in the LRSF?

[/ QUOTE ] No, buying yellow inspirations has the same difficulty as buying the others.

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How many high-number sustainable ToHit buff powers are there?

[/ QUOTE ] How many times can you afford to spend 50 influence on an inspiration?

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But see, here's the thing: if teams have to go load up on all yellows to beat this AV, then leave mission and go load up on all purples for that AV, then leave after that and go load up on all reds.... having to do that kind of thing just screams "broken!" to me. People should not be having to leave the mission multiple times because the only way they can take down an AV is by 20 of the same Inspiration.

I don't have to do that to take down Lusca or Adamastor, and I should not have to do it in a Strike Force. A well-equipped, experienced team of well-slotted players should not have to be doing this.

I am sure many disagree, but this isn't strategy, its buying one's way through a SF. Now we all probably pretty much agree that the LRSF is not going to be readdressed in our lifetimes, but this should not be SOP for getting through a SF. I cannot think of another TF other than the LRSF where people know right off not to show up without 5 Shivans and at least two nukes per person, otherwise the SF will fail. That is just.... ridiculous. And it does not say "well balanced" to me.

[/ QUOTE ] I do agree that having to leave multiple times for inspiration/nuke runs isn't ideal. Although I find inspiration runs little more than minor annoyances. But having to get a nuke for LRSF(judging by this thread, I'venever attempted it) would annoy the hell out of me.

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You know what? I am a moron. I hereby retract all statements about this SF being "Broken" or "Impossible". Why? Because I literally just beat it.

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Good job!

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They should add more SFs to red side *** hey have more choices. Maybe something with 5th Column.

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and maybe it can come out in i15 to.

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I've had far more failed attempts at the STF than I have with the LRSF...

actually, come to think of it, I've never actually failed a LRSF. The only 50 villain I have is a Stone/Elec brute, usually he winds up tanking, because somehow everyone else is more squishy than he is.

I've never had to fight more than 2 vindicators at a time, if you are fighting more than 3 at a time, you're doing something wrong, I regularly pull 1 at a time.

as for the last mission Freedom Phalanx, yes, that mission is hard, and yes, it can be completed without a mind dom or nukes.

Here are a couple strategies I have had work successfully, some work better with certain team makeups than others.

1. Pull with a stalker. This is probably the most difficult because it requires a stalker who took their snipe and a team-mate with Recall Friend. It goes like this, everyone gets as far away from the Phalanx as possible, the stalker turns on TP prompt and gets to the max range of his snipe, targets an outlier member of the Phalanx. Cue up Recall friend, when the dialogue box pops up, the stalker snipes then gets tp'd back, usually you'll manage to pull 2 or 3, I have seen 1 get pulled, but it's less common than 2.

2. Inspirations. This one hopes you have Veng/recall and/or some team-mates who can provide +def or +res. This is the most fun, if you ask me. basically, you stock up on the defensive inspiration that you don't have covered, so if you have a cold/FF/Veat you load up on oranges, if you have a Son/Therm you grab purples. every character gets to at least 50% resist and 30% defense then just charge the phalanx, targeting the most annoying AVs first. use any temps/pets/whatever you have, odds are you'll have to charge it a couple times, but you should be able to take them down slowly.

I've also successfully managed by just pulling an AV or 3 with my brute or having a corr/dom pull. Usually this is the hardest way to do it, because you'll most likely pull at least half of the phalanx, and usually people aren't ready for it. This one really does require people to be good at their characters and at teaming, otherwise you'll pretty much fail.

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No

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

I think you underestimate our fools, sir.

Why /duel is a bad idea

i've only done the lrsf once. on my thugs/traps. back before traps was nerfed and i could keep the phalanx chain puking.

every player used nukes. but hey, i got my archvillain

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They should add more SFs to red side *** hey have more choices. Maybe something with 5th Column.

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and maybe it can come out in i15 to.

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It's a start, but another 45-50 SF doesn't really shore up the holes at lower levels.

I'd much rather see a 30-35 SF than another 45-50; at that level a villain has 3 to choose from already.

As for pulling in the last mission, I've gotten a 0 mob pull with my Dark/Cold. Moonbeam is 3-slotted with Centrioles (Dam/Range) and I have another IO from a set that's got a bit of range in it, too; running Arctic Fog I can snipe Numina, teleport to the group while it's on the way, and then wait...

and wait...

and wait...

About 30 seconds later without her moving I sniped her again and got Numina and Synapse.

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Any PvE content that requires you to do PvP content is inherently broken.

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@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too

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They should add more SFs to red side *** hey have more choices. Maybe something with 5th Column.

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and maybe it can come out in i15 to.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a start, but another 45-50 SF doesn't really shore up the holes at lower levels.

I'd much rather see a 30-35 SF than another 45-50; at that level a villain has 3 to choose from already.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't we have both? And a 40-45 one as well, while we're at it.

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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

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Any PvE content that requires you to do PvP content is inherently broken.

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It doesn't require it, though.

I've gone through plenty of runs where no nukes or shivans were needed, but they weren't by any random assortment of characters. There was some factor towards team construction in those; the only reason we set the master parameters on the PuG was because the "random assortment" that responded to the broadcasts consisted of mostly Corruptors with a few Brutes, the powersets meshed well for the idea, and all but one person had run it several times before and had familiarity.

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They should add more SFs to red side *** hey have more choices. Maybe something with 5th Column.

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and maybe it can come out in i15 to.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a start, but another 45-50 SF doesn't really shore up the holes at lower levels.

I'd much rather see a 30-35 SF than another 45-50; at that level a villain has 3 to choose from already.


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Can't we have both? And a 40-45 one as well, while we're at it.

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I'd rather have choices for quite a few more level ranges, thus the "it's a start" part of the post quoted. As for 40-45, you can still do the ITF through that range, but there's literally no SFs for a level 31-34 to get experience on (Operative Renault at 30, Ice Mistral at 35 if you find enough higher levels or can handle +5s).

More SFs - and thus more choices - is never bad.

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Any PvE content that requires you to do PvP content is inherently broken.

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Fortunately, no such PvE content exists.

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dammit, now I want to do an LRSF.

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Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

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I hardly think that the self-proclaimed hardest challenge in the game should be easy with a PUG, nor do I think that constitutes brokenness or horrible design.

If you want easy with a PUG, play the other 99% of the game. Leave the TFs to people who actually want something close to a challenge.

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Coming late to the party, but I wanted to cheer this post on. When the LRSF was first released, I was annoyed because I feel like I'm entitled to do all the content however I choose. Ultimately I came to accept that that's a little silly. I don't like seeing heavy gates on lots of content, but really it's fine for the stuff that's specifically designed to be the ultimate test of powergaming uberteams to be unplayable by more casual types. I wish that the entry requirements for most other TFs would be lowered, but I'm satisfied that there's enough for me to do in the game without enduring the agony of the tip top powergamer content.

For background: I actually did the LRSF once - just once - and succeeded at it. But it was such a tedious nightmare of administration - nothing at all like the rollicking fun you can have in the rest of the game - that I simply have no desire to try again. I did it once, it's done, I don't have to feel like I missed out on anything.


Actually I've never bothered trying the STF for the same reason, but now that I hear it's much easier than the LRSF, maybe I'll give it a shot some day, just to see the content. Thanks for the tip, thread!

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The LRSF is the reason my ill/rad controller and stone tanker are going red side as soon as they are allowed to. I've been playing since before CoV came out and I still haven't gotten to do the LRSF because none of my villain characters are "good" enough to get a team that can beat it.

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While we're on the topic of the LRSF, can we get THE FREAKING TECHNICIAN to be smarter and less buggy? That would be amazing

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Any PvE content that requires you to do PvP content is inherently broken.

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Why does everyone seem to think Nukes and Shivans are mandatory temps needed for anything hard? I've been on both STFs and LRSFs where the leader was adamant about needing both for buffs, debuffs and "Aggro control". And in the end, it made no noticeable difference...

That's the dumbest thing I've every heard personally: Shivans...for aggro control? Are you kidding me? Most times you can summon one right next to what you want it to attack...and it'll run off somewhere else brainlessly and attack something totally different. Shivans are notoriously unreliable in the best of circumstances, and depending on them isn't a wise path to take.

If you build your ST/TF team well, you can supplement what these temps do quite easily...occasionally with a single AT. Any Rad user can take the place of a shivan for debuffs. A kin, or pain/emp user can offer up nuke-like buffs repeatedly without having to ever step foot into a PvP zone.

In the case of the LRSF I took part in with the leader's adamant demands for nukes and shivs, I was playing my Rad/kin corr...effectively a shivan and one of the Warburg nukes mixed into a single, PC-controlled unit. It was also my virgin run of the SF, and I was really expecting the worst when the boss was going on and on about needing temps for all the Heroes. Eventually by the final mission, I was already questioning why we needed them. And then watching 5 shivans do nothing helpful for the team when we needed them against the Phalanx, I was pretty convinced that the leader was just blowing hot air about the whole thing.

Throughout the whole TF, I was quite obsessive about making sure any and all Hero-class targets were debuffed to the extreme...which isn't very hard as a rad/kin using Soul Mastery. Power boosted Transfusion and transference floor regen and recovery, backed with PB'd -def and some -res (Proc-based)...it was kinda laughable how easy the whole experience was. Sure we had a couple wipes against the Phalanx, but it wasn't wasn't anything a slight change in tactics didn't solve.

In the end, temp powers are nice to have, but they aren't 'mandatory' for everything that presents a challenge in the game. Stocking up on a bunch of buffs and pets with a team that's not balanced to begin with isn't going to change the outcome, or make it any easier to achieve.

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@Dispari's Personal Assistant

"I might not be 'l33t', but that doesn't change that you're still a noob..."

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Why does everyone seem to think Nukes and Shivans are mandatory temps needed for anything hard?

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Because at least for the LRSF... they are required. Unless you feel like gambling that it will get finished... which means that you just wasted a coouple of hours.

Now 15 people are about to try and shout me down about how they're not required, but when *I* sign up for the LRSF [which isnt often these days], I enter with nukes and Shivans regardless of what they have to say. And there have been times when my nukes and shivans saved the day. If others want to enter with no temp powers, that's ok; its their SF.

I like hedging my bets. Also, people may quit, and I need an ace or three up my sleeve when they do.

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Why does everyone seem to think Nukes and Shivans are mandatory temps needed for anything hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because at least for the LRSF... they are required. Unless you feel like gambling that it will get finished... which means that you just wasted a coouple of hours.

Now 15 people are about to try and shout me down about how they're not required, but when *I* sign up for the LRSF [which isnt often these days], I enter with nukes and Shivans regardless of what they have to say. And there have been times when my nukes and shivans saved the day. If others want to enter with no temp powers, that's ok; its their SF.

I like hedging my bets. Also, people may quit, and I need an ace or three up my sleeve when they do.

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What you just said doesn't mean they're required, it means you like to have them and feel like you won't get invited if you don't. "Required" means either "you are guaranteed to fail" or "you won't even get an invite", neither of which is at all true. Proof? Master of Lord Recluse's Strike Force.

It has nothing to do with gambling, and everything to do with people who know what they're doing. If you haven't figured that out, it may account for your difficulties.

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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

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Why does everyone seem to think Nukes and Shivans are mandatory temps needed for anything hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because at least for the LRSF... they are required. Unless you feel like gambling that it will get finished... which means that you just wasted a coouple of hours.

Now 15 people are about to try and shout me down about how they're not required, but when *I* sign up for the LRSF [which isnt often these days], I enter with nukes and Shivans regardless of what they have to say. And there have been times when my nukes and shivans saved the day. If others want to enter with no temp powers, that's ok; its their SF.

I like hedging my bets. Also, people may quit, and I need an ace or three up my sleeve when they do.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you just said doesn't mean they're required, it means you like to have them and feel like you won't get invited if you don't. "Required" means either "you are guaranteed to fail" or "you won't even get an invite", neither of which is at all true. Proof? Master of Lord Recluse's Strike Force.

It has nothing to do with gambling, and everything to do with people who know what they're doing. If you haven't figured that out, it may account for your difficulties.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if three-four people quit out of a team of eight, this means that the team "did not know what they are doing." Hmmm. And same for trying to pull one of the Freedumb Phalanx and having them arrive as a group: if you "know what you are doing," this will never happen.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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Why does everyone seem to think Nukes and Shivans are mandatory temps needed for anything hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because at least for the LRSF... they are required. Unless you feel like gambling that it will get finished... which means that you just wasted a coouple of hours.

Now 15 people are about to try and shout me down about how they're not required, but when *I* sign up for the LRSF [which isnt often these days], I enter with nukes and Shivans regardless of what they have to say. And there have been times when my nukes and shivans saved the day. If others want to enter with no temp powers, that's ok; its their SF.

I like hedging my bets. Also, people may quit, and I need an ace or three up my sleeve when they do.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you just said doesn't mean they're required, it means you like to have them and feel like you won't get invited if you don't. "Required" means either "you are guaranteed to fail" or "you won't even get an invite", neither of which is at all true. Proof? Master of Lord Recluse's Strike Force.

It has nothing to do with gambling, and everything to do with people who know what they're doing. If you haven't figured that out, it may account for your difficulties.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if three-four people quit out of a team of eight, this means that the team "did not know what they are doing." Hmmm. And same for trying to pull one of the Freedumb Phalanx and having them arrive as a group: if you "know what you are doing," this will never happen.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how what you said relates to what he said. You seem to be just making up silly excuses. One of my personal favorite excuses is "the sun was in my eyes."

Next time someone states that "shivans and nukes aren't required" and you say "nuh uh 3 or 4 people quit and pulling the freedom phalanx" as some type of irrelevant response I think you should instead say "the sun was in my eyes." It's equally stupid, pointless and similarly does nothing to address the statements made to you but at least "the sun was in my eyes" has a certain comedic value.

*EDIT*
And yes, people who quit do not know what they are doing. Obviously. Quitting is not a good strategy to complete a Task Force.

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