The LRSF is broken. Plain and simple.

No. As my last post pointed out, it's not the makeup of the team that matters. It's how well the team functions together to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

"Special Build" teams, merely make things EASIER. But, if you have any of the problems I outlined above, you're STILL likely to be boarding the fail-boat.

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[ QUOTE ]
See thing is, each statement is Do X this with X that, WHIPE, then repeat.


Shouldnt have to all die after AVs & continue this, STF every single one I did, we all died once, out of 7 of em I did.


LRSF your expected to all die, thats silly.


JJ

[/ QUOTE ]

See, the thing is, you're making up your own arbitrary rules that it should follow.

It's been done by 8 Stalkers, widely considered the worst AT for the TF.

It's been done by masses of people on varying teams without Shivans/nukes.

It's able to be done with nearly any team who bothers to bring such things along.

So, what you're saying is that not only should it be able to be done by any 8 players without any outside buffs like empowerment buffs, inspirations, Shivans, or nukes, but it should also be done by said players with only 1 death each? Is it okay if it still doesn't award a pony at the end?

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- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)

Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.

It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.

Ok on the 8 Stalkers thing we used shivans,nukes and stacking vengeance, honestly without those things we wouldn't have been able to do it. This was also before I9, so no IO's,and no Stalker re-balancing.

No one said 1 death each.
He said 1 Team Wipe very different thing.
And I agree with that statement if your expected to team wipe repeatedly than something is definitely wrong.

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I've done the LRSF numerous times and only had one team-wipe against the Phalanx.

...I don't really get this thread. People keep coming up with new reasons why it's not balanced, but none of them are true.

"You HAVE to have shivans!"
"I've done it without shivans."
"Well you HAVE to have nukes."
"I've done it without nukes."
"Mind Doms are REQUIRED!"
"We never take Doms."
"You absolutely HAVE to have specialized builds!"
"We've done it without (AT/build X)."
"You HAVE to have VEATs!"
"I've also done it without VEATs."
"Yeah well you HAVE to pull!"
"We don't usually pull."
"But you ALWAYS wipe!"
"No. You don't."
"But..."
"No!"
"Well it's still broken!"

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[ QUOTE ]
honestly i think its more about skill of the players

[/ QUOTE ]This.

[ QUOTE ]
No. As my last post pointed out, it's not the makeup of the team that matters. It's how well the team functions together to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

"Special Build" teams, merely make things EASIER. But, if you have any of the problems I outlined above, you're STILL likely to be boarding the fail-boat.

[/ QUOTE ]And this.

There's plenty of leeway for what's "required". Although I will say that the last mission is still a harder encounter than the STF provides, so there is less leeway.

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[ QUOTE ]
is this a serious discussion?

The LRSF and STF are two of the toughest challenges in the game

or along those lines of the loading screen tips

In my humble opinion...the kills should be in this order:

Numina, Sister Psyche, Positron, Synapse, Citadel, BaBs, Manticore, Statesman.

Despite that...after Positron, you can pick who you want to take out next, the 3 biggest threats will be down.

[/ QUOTE ]

hell last night we did synapse, numina, positron, citadel, sister, manticore then statsmen.

someone pulled synapse and in the middle of fighting him numina, postrion citadel and sister all came over we beat them then killed manticore than statesmen.

I mean if i can form a team out of who ever is in RV at 12 at night bring zero rads no colds, no stone brute, no shivans no nukes, and be the team leader as a stalker you people have nothing really to complain about.

If you cant do it straight say i cant do it, i been on 7 man teams with no brute 2 mms and 5 corrs i have done it corr less i have been on all mastermind teams i have only failed the RSF once, the longest it has ever taken me is 2 hours.

The stf pug teams i have been on have taken 2 to 3 hours and have failed more than that, but then again my SG used to run them in 45 mins or less, i have a screen shot of us finishing it in 38 mins. Our SG invited the entire Dev staff to join us on one, only one actually wanted to come.

If you fail at the RSF, try harder? i mean bring nukes and shivans if you want but i never do, and when CoR comes out my stone tank will be red side with my WP tank so ill help ya then

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
honestly i think its more about skill of the players

[/ QUOTE ]This.

[ QUOTE ]
No. As my last post pointed out, it's not the makeup of the team that matters. It's how well the team functions together to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

"Special Build" teams, merely make things EASIER. But, if you have any of the problems I outlined above, you're STILL likely to be boarding the fail-boat.

[/ QUOTE ]And this.

There's plenty of leeway for what's "required". Although I will say that the last mission is still a harder encounter than the STF provides, so there is less leeway.

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing about STFs are tanks do it better, a tank can tank better than a brute, its how it goes, problem with the STF is you fight 4 lvl 54 avs at once one that can instant heal from 0 to full if 3 to 4 targetable things are around her, an aoe that almost one shots everyone, a AV that is highly resistant to taunt.

but a tank with buffs has no problems, with higher base hp and higher base res/def its not that big of an issue, if you build a speacial team its a cake walk same with LRSF, we used to do 1 stone tank 1empath 1 kin 3 rads 2 blasters for our 45 min STF than one day me and another guy decided to do WP tank 2 colds 2 sonics 3 blasters, that thing was a cake walk talking 40 min to 35 min average a night.

Special teams make everything easier, but are not required

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know, I've completed the LRSF multiple times on the highest difficulty without a single nuke or Dominator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then please explain how. I would love to know.

[/ QUOTE ]A balance team can easily do this tf. Its not as hard as people make it out to be. If you got buffers then buff up if not then just dive in. To me the one thing thats make or break on this tf is the kill order of the avs. Once you have Numina and Sister P out of the way its pretty much a done deal. Just dont kill statesman last or he does his lightning thing and you will never beat him.

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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Ok on the 8 Stalkers thing we used shivans,nukes and stacking vengeance, honestly without those things we wouldn't have been able to do it. This was also before I9, so no IO's,and no Stalker re-balancing.

No one said 1 death each.
He said 1 Team Wipe very different thing.
And I agree with that statement if your expected to team wipe repeatedly than something is definitely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except expecting a teamwipe on a team that is not built to maximize success shouldn't be an indicator of something wrong. Again, that's applying your own conditions to the challenge that are never guaranteed.

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- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)

Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.

It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.

And then were going back into specialized team building
So it's either build to maximize success or expect team wipes?
Neither of these options are particularly good.

IS there a 3rd one we can use?

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[ QUOTE ]
And this is precisely why I haven't bothered with the LRSF since it was introduced.

It is broken. It is horribly designed.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Worst designing in this game. Sheer crap. It's from the old school of "harder is gooder" where a dungeon master would get pissed off at his player characters for breaking "his" game and then make this unkillable monster to teach the players a lesson.

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Global: @FuzzyOne
Find me playing these servers: Champion, Justice, Freedom, Virtue and Pinnacle

[ QUOTE ]
And then were going back into specialized team building
So it's either build to maximize success or expect team wipes?
Neither of these options are particularly good.

IS there a 3rd one we can use?

[/ QUOTE ]

LRSF requires fore-thought, as does the STF. This isn't a conspiracy but common sense instead.

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Do you believe that the LRSF was balanced against a Pentad team when it first released?

Do you believe it's balanced against a Pentad team now that the Phalanx is level 53?

If the answer to either of those questions is no how can you believe that the LRSF is balanced at all?

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I think the RSF is great fun and I don't mind failing somethign that is suppose to be hard.

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A balanced fight can't be hard?

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A SF has to be balanced?

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[ QUOTE ]
A SF has to be balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, otherwise it just falls over and breaks and then you have little SF pieces all over the floor.

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Considering that all other PvE content the Devs have made including the STF is balanced, I would say yes.

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[ QUOTE ]
Considering that all other PvE content the Devs have made including the STF is balanced, I would say yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, not being able to hit Mako is balanced?

So, not being able to kll GW because her hold one shots anything below and sometimes including a tank, is balanced?

RSF is tough and I enjoy every moment AND especially victory. STF is too easy in comparison and should be much more difficult.

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[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe that the LRSF was balanced against a Pentad team when it first released?

Do you believe it's balanced against a Pentad team now that the Phalanx is level 53?

If the answer to either of those questions is no how can you believe that the LRSF is balanced at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

No:

Because it requires 8 to start *ducks*

Pentad + 3 any is a stretch, but do-able

pentad + 2nd corr + 2 any certainly isn't a stretch for good players.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

I won't join a TF/SF without Shivans/Nukes mostly because they are insurance. Can you win without them? Yes.

If someone has to leave early, gets DC'ed, etc, and you find yourself facing a wall of evil with nothing but three stalkers, those things come in handy.

I'm allergic to giving up when I'm close to the end. Hence the nukes and Shivans.

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Not being able to hit Mako isn't any different than not being able to hit a Paragon Protector that pop's Elude.

I personally don't feel that Ghost Widow's hold is balanced at all.

and in the same vein

Statesman being able to use Unstoppable permanently is balanced?

Positron being able to put your recharge into the negatives is balanced?

BABS handclap dealing 2000+ damage is balanced?

Manticore's autohit Teleport Arrow is balanced?

the Phalanx having a linked agro system is balanced?

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[ QUOTE ]

Statesman being able to use Unstoppable permanently is balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

Avoidable. Don't fight him last.

[ QUOTE ]

Positron being able to put your recharge into the negatives is balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this different then fighting regular PvE mobs?

[ QUOTE ]

BABS handclap dealing 2000+ damage is balanced?

Manticore's autohit Teleport Arrow is balanced?

the Phalanx having a linked agro system is balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's all balanced around bringing the right mix of damage, buffs, debuffs and, most importantly, intelligence to the team.


By the way, I'm pretty sure the AVs in STF have linked aggro as well. I've seen some of them "show up" while fighting one or two others.

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[ QUOTE ]
And then were going back into specialized team building
So it's either build to maximize success or expect team wipes?
Neither of these options are particularly good.

IS there a 3rd one we can use?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll remember that the next time I try an STF with 8 Scrappers. Or 6 Scrappers and 2 Tanks. Or an 8-man Posi TF with all Tanks. 8 FF Defenders running Faathim's TF. All of this are perfectly available team makeups. You're arguing that these teams should be able to complete these tasks without a single team wipe?

How is the concept of, "I'm gonna be taking on the most difficult single-team challenge in the game, I oughta bring a balanced mixture of toons that can help each other" too difficult for anyone?

Yes, if you're not going to bring a team that will maximize your chance of success, you should expect to fail magnificently. We've already proven that such a team does not require Mind Doms, Shivans, nukes, or Stone Brutes, so obviously, there is quite a bit of leeway when it comes to the definition of a "team that will maximize your success".

It should not be considered a bad option for people who are unprepared for a task to not succeed at every task. Most of the game is so easy that you can, literally, get any 8 Level 50 characters together and have a reasonable chance of success. Why is it that when a task is presented that requires a minimum of forethought, it's declared "impossible" and too hard?

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- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)

Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.

It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.

The most I'll budge is maybe reducing the AV lvls down one. Other than that it's fine. I should think that the STF should be bumped up in diff.

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Pinnacle: Hold my beer. Watch this!
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else.
MA arc #117314!! Try it nao!!