Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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So where are the devs on this.
States in beta said he would be keeping a close eye on Dom's after all the Dom's are too weak calls.
Then they said in I7 they were still looking and here we are a month later and nothing said.
So where are the devs in all this, it seems like they really dont care much. Its like dom's dont have enough players to be worth spending time on.
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States plays a plant/psi Dom (I think), I don't know what level he is yet. Around the end of April, I started a Fire/Energy Dominator on Justice. I'm level 37 now.
Fun? You bet, and I've played all the AT's in both games at pretty much every level. Dominators are definitely my cup of tea.
States and I -still- keep a close eye on Dominators. Datamining supports SOME of the claims made on these boards, but refutes others. Personal experience with the AT also lends credibility to some of the complaints, while showing others are simply blown out of porportion.
I read a bunch of the posts in this thread, not all of them though (yet). A lot of users hit the nail on the head when stating that you can't think of Dominator as "CoV's Controller". We went through a lot of effort to make sure that the ATs played and felt different between the two games. Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for.
Then of course there is the Domination ability, which is the real Jekyl and Hyde of the AT. A mild-manner Dominator with a full Domination bar can, at his or her discretion, become an unstoppable machine of destruction and control. While it never lasts "long enough" (even I am disappointed at hearing the sound effect of it wearing off), I've had missions where I have gotten Domination off four times from mission-entry to having Mission Complete appear on the screen. Good times indeed.
We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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I have to ask you this straight out.
Now I know its either not coming or not coming soon.
But do you honeslty believe most players would take a dominator over a controller if side switching were in the game? or would controllers completly deteam dominators.
Also I think you are missing the point, dominators are for alot of people already too dependant on domination. Dominators need more oompf out of domination. Not more dependance on it.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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I've heard a number of quality solutions proposed to the problem of early-game performance problems for Dominators, including:
[*]Messing with the AT modifiers so they START at, say 0.8 and slowly work their way down to 0.65 by level 25 or so
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Um... we already have higher damage scales than that.
We drop to .65 at 25, but start at .93 (ranged).
Damage Scalars
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I'm aware of that, so let me be more precise in my wording.
Have the Damage Scalar for a Dominator at Range and at Melee be the same as for a Tanker at melee for the first 20 levels, then, between levels 20 and 25, have the scalar shift from the melee Tanker's level 20 value (87% of Blaster BI at that point vs. the 65% [ranged] or 75% [melee] it is currently by level 20 for Doms) to the current scalars Dominators use from levels 25-50.
But that's a real mouthful.
The gist is simply to put Dominators on the Tanker melee scalar until level 20, then downgrade them towards their original scalars from 20-25. And I should have said that instead of implying it via reference to 0.8.
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[ QUOTE ][*]Having some or all of the +100% damage from Domination tied to the size of the Domination bar instead of the clicking of the Domination button (more helpful early game because the +DMG buff is a bigger deal in early levels before SOs)
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AFAIK, that's 75% (37.5% after SO's), not 100%.
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I expect you're right about the 75%. I think I swapped the duraiton increase and the damage increase in my mind.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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While this is unquestionably Nifty, I'm not sure it's the right direction to go in addressing the woes of the Dom AT. I think most of us will agree that Domination is already pretty sweet--it's just the rest of the time that we feel lacking. Making our brief periods of uberness more uber won't make the slog in between any better. I'd rather see something shore us up in the gaps.
Here's a thought: Keep the mez protection (I'm hoping it's protection, as opposed to resistance, which is much less nifty). Key it to the Domination bar, rather than the power. When the bar is full, and Domination is available, mez protection kicks in until the bar drops, or Domination is activated. This would present us with a tactical decision: Do I save the bar to keep the protective buff, or do I trigger Domination and go all megalomaniacal on my foes? More importantly, it would ease the frustration during those long periods when we're all sparkly and looking at the little dot of unrecharged Domination.
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I'm in agreement with Balanced and some other posters who've commented on this since. I'd even go a step further (someone else mentioned this too) and scale mez resistance up with the bar gradually as opposed to an all or nothing approach, as we get that with Domination already. Either/or would make me happy. 
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Wasn't Jekyl a huge wuss?
God, I hate being balanced around a clock. I hate that, no matter what I do, no matter how good I am, there are going to be times where I am simply not operating at my best and, moreover, there's nothing I can do to change it.
Also, Positron, you should consider something. Consider that nobody else but you dev guys has the inside information on just the right way to play a Dominator. We've got to stumble blindly through until we find our place.
Despite what you say, the closest thing to draw upon for that is, in fact, the Controller archetype. The Dominator isn't 'CoV's Controller', it's 'CoV's Control Archetype'.
And the Controller is 'CoH's Control Archetype'.
It's unrealistic to dismiss any comparisons between the two across the board. It's not like you gave us any primer on how to be a Dominator, what do you expect us to do?
"We Control. They Control. We deal damage. They deal damage. Let's do what they're doing."
"Wait, why am I dying so much."
Stop being so [censored] stingy with numbers and design philosophy and INTENT. I'd guess that something like 85% of all the data at the player base's disposal is created by the playerbase. Which means it's subject to speculation, modification, and condemnation.
Meanwhile, if the Devs put out numbers about what Armor X, Blast Y, and Mega Nuke Z did, there would be no doubt that's what they did.
I know it's Cryptic Studios, but that doesn't mean we should have to go datamining ourselves to figure out what our own damn powers really do, let alone how we're supposed to put this all together into a working, contributing class.
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I have to ask you this straight out.
Now I know its either not coming or not coming soon.
But do you honeslty believe most players would take a dominator over a controller if side switching were in the game? or would controllers completly deteam dominators.
Also I think you are missing the point, dominators are for alot of people already too dependant on domination. Dominators need more oompf out of domination. Not more dependance on it.
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If a Dominator is too dependant on Domination, giving Domination more oomph isn't going to fix that, but make it worse. If anything, Doms need more oomph while not in Domination (like when the got the recent across the field damage buff). I myself have found that I could never really get into the Dominator frame of mind (and haven't been able to do it for Controllers for a long, long time), but I personally love having them on the team. In fact, I'd rather have a (reasonably experienced and competent) Dominator than a Controller in many cases. People keep trying to match up the heroes and villains AT by AT, but the fact of the matter is that the villain pentad is NOT the hero pentad...they operate in almost completely differnt ways, and the strategy for a pentad of heroes has some similarity but a lot of differences from that of a pentad of villains. Dominators need some tweaks, but the people who think they suck wind are the ones who either want to play one as if they were a controller, or the ones who just don't have a dom playstyle and have never really run across seeing what a good Dom can do (solo or teamed).
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But do you honeslty believe most players would take a dominator over a controller if side switching were in the game? or would controllers completly deteam dominators.
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I love grouping my controller with other controllers because we're setting up Containment for each other. How many people would kick a /Thermal Corr to pick up a whatever/Empathy Controller? They'd de-team everyone and group up like they do in COH. A Dom woudn't stand a chance...
The question should be: if they had Controllers in COV how many people would delete their Dom to roll a Controller? 
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Can a corr do an AoE sleep,
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I really don't think a corr would bother with an aoe sleep, because Brutes and MMs and corrs all have aoe attacks, and sleeps are going to be broken almost as soon as they are applied. They just aren't a realistic control option on a large team.
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I refer you to Siren's Song.
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Dominators can also blow through melee's mez protections. A controller will never really get that chance before those ATs eat them alive.
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Any halfway decent controller can blow through a Melee's mez resistance. You are dreadfully wrong on this account. And holding through break-frees? Controllers have been doing it in PvP since the Arena came out, and controllers can do it consistently, not just during the 90 seconds of Domination. Advantage -> Controllers.
I should also add that I really, REALLY want to love Dominators, it seems like the idea of Control+Damage would be awesome. It's just not panning out that way from my experience.
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It's unrealistic to dismiss any comparisons between the two across the board. It's not like you gave us any primer on how to be a Dominator, what do you expect us to do?
"We Control. They Control. We deal damage. They deal damage. Let's do what they're doing."
"Wait, why am I dying so much."
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Which is why some people suck at being stalkers.
Or brutes.
Or corruptors.
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(For those who are curious, I dumped all of my immoblize powers and squeezed Stamina into the build. I might re-add the single target immobilize later, but we'll see. So far I've been using Seeds of Confusion as my bread and butter.)
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Is it good, though, that so much of the set's strength revolves around this one power? I think it says something noteworthy that this one still-workable AoE control can have such a dramatic effect on the Plant Control set when compared with the others. If they want to improve the lot of Dominators, it seems to me this is the angle they should be attacking from, not mez resistance.
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It's unrealistic to dismiss any comparisons between the two across the board. It's not like you gave us any primer on how to be a Dominator, what do you expect us to do?
"We Control. They Control. We deal damage. They deal damage. Let's do what they're doing."
"Wait, why am I dying so much."
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Which is why some people suck at being stalkers.
Or brutes.
Or corruptors.
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Yes, because they are essentially being commanded to build a house with a huge pile of lumber, power tools, and absolutely no knowledge of construction.
Some people can do it, some can't. Some look at the house next door and try to do what he did. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes they think back to houses they made in other states (okay, this metaphor is going on too long).
Layman's terms, some people figure it out quickly, others bumble around for 50 levels. Some people copycat another, successful build or philosophy from other people/ats, and some people draw upon past MMO experience.
This is why I am eternally frustrated with my Mind/Psi Dominator, despite being pretty [censored] good at the Control aspect. I'm playing my Illusion/FF Controller; very focused on control/offense, don't pay attention to defense so much (because I had Personal Force Field and Dispersion Field at my disposal).
Obviously, this isn't how the Dominator should be played. But, guess what, Posi?
Nobody knows definitively how to play a Dominator 'right' but the people who designed them. Unless you're a Dominator Savant, it's nothing but [censored] guesswork and drawing from past experiences (but who knows which ones you should draw on!).
You guys could remedy this EASILY.
Until you do this, people will keep being pissed off because they're not playing the AT right and don't even know it. And they'll keep playing it, because they want to use Control.
I hate Dominators. I love Control. I play a Dominator. At least, until I get so pissed I have to go play my Stalker.
Thank God I've got a lot of past experience in that playstyle.
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In fact, I'd rather have a (reasonably experienced and competent) Dominator than a Controller in many cases.
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Many? I can't think of a single situation.
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Dominators need some tweaks, but the people who think they suck wind are the ones who either want to play one as if they were a controller, or the ones who just don't have a dom playstyle and have never really run across seeing what a good Dom can do (solo or teamed).
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rofl
I love how people say that if you feel doms underperform, you simply aren't playing them correctly. After months of reading this type of argument, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the problem is that you all don't play your other AT's correctly.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Lemme just say, "Whoo!" I think that alone will be a big help.
Personally, I have found that the Dominator feels like it's progressing slowly, but it isn't. I could have sworn over the last five levels I played, I had just hit some sort of wall. I was dying every five seconds, and was absolutely sure I was progessing half as fast as my other characters.
Yet, when I actually stopped and checked with an NPC about my playing time, I found I had taken exactly the same number of hours as my other characters, no more, no less. So either all the deaths I'd managed to rack up either didn't count for that much, since XP debt is so much lower now, or like a Blaster, I was levelling so fast that the debt compensated for it.
The bigger issue is whether the PERCEPTION that the Dominator is progressing slowly is more important than the actual rate. If people won't play the AT because they don't bother to check whether they are actually levelling slower or not, it doesn't matter if it's only perception. It may be better for the AT to have it level slower overall, if that means it can be made to die less often.
And I still say I want to see melee damage raised to 80%. I just don't like seeing that 75% damage so common to all villains. Mix it up a bit...
They should up our melee damage to 1.00
If we gotta walk in there with no hp, and very little defense.. we should kick some gorram [censored].
I don't get it. Part of the game is figuring out how to make things work for you, and part of being new to something is screwing that up.
I don't know, but it sounds a little to me like asking for the solution to a puzzle so you can actually enjoy it.
Plus you can't hand players a guide to how to play an AT, since there isn't one. The devs might have an idea of how something should work but players are the ones that come up with the real strategies. This is why we have to tell them something doesn't work or occationally something works far too well.
I can see how melee is useful when soloing the standard 3-4 mob format...but when in a team situation it has no effective use...and it leads me to believe that this AT wasn't designed with too much thought.
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I love how people say that if you feel doms underperform, you simply aren't playing them correctly. After months of reading this type of argument, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the problem is that you all don't play your other AT's correctly.
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I think it's a valid point myself. Dominator play isn't a cakewalk by any means. I simply don't like it when folks declare vehemently that other people suck because there might a learning curve and those other folks haven't gotten it yet. You don't have to be l33t to succeed as a Dominator; you just have to be nonconformist.
This doesn't necessarily preclude an ability to play other ATs effectively. That might exist anyways; I can't play a Blaster to save my life, for example. I don't take it personally. I also don't play Blasters. 
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.
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... Dominators give up a bit of control for some good direct damage attacks that Controllers would give their left mouse button for...
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I don't think so. I play both ... and IMO controller containment = superior damage. Add the higher MAG control and it seems to me controllers greatly outshine dominators - particularly in PvP.
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Actually, by the numbers, Dominators outdamage Controllers until the controllers can pick up the epic pools. Fire Mastery + Containment = sick damage.
Until then, though, the controller does less damage.
Now, one thing I've learned about Dominators is you NEED to take your melee attacks in order to do significant damage. If you're having trouble on this front, this is the way to go.
I'm not saying Dominators are perfect, but you definitely can't play them like a Controller and you can't play them like a Defender. That was one of the biggest hurdles I had to get over.
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You enjoyed your Dom, OP. That's all that matters. Who cares what THEY say?
For me, Doms don't suck. For others, Doms do suck because they're not Controllers. For others, Doms do suck because they're not blasters.
Just be careful with your endurance until level 22, when you can get stamina and SO EndRedux enhancers.
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QFT X2
Play what makes you happy, also take what you read on the boards with a grain of salt (besides only a small amount of players actually post so what you read is not good tally of what the people think).
Valaraine: Master Archer & Electricity Whiz.
(Archer - lvl 50, swordswoman - lvl 50, Elec zapper - lvl 35, Ice/DB tank - lvl 50, Arch/En - lvl 26, Lvl 33 Blade wielder, trick archer - lvl 34, flame tank - lvl 30, rad specialist - lvl 44.)
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Positron:
First, a disclaimer. I don't currently play Dominators, because of the problems with the AT and their poor performance compared to other CoV ATs. However, I played Dominators nearly exclusively from the first day of CoV Beta(first wave), and have played a couple to the mid-teens on live. When it came time to create a character on live, my Corruptor just provided much more effectiveness, fun, and reasonable, though not equivalent, control.
I think its great that you guys want to buff Dominators. They need it. But I believe you need to focus your buffing efforts not on Domination, but on Dominators outside of Domination. Domination is great. It's a veritable can of whoop-[censored] when you use it.
The problem is, outside of when Domination is up, Doms are over all too weak. 65% Blaster damage for Ranged Attacks is pitiful in the post-ED world. It makes fights tediously long.
Also, whats the status of the shortenting of Psi Assault animation times that Statesman mentioned during CoV Beta?
Heroes
Dysmal
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Slagheap
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Villains
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I can see how melee is useful when soloing the standard 3-4 mob format...but when in a team situation it has no effective use...and it leads me to believe that this AT wasn't designed with too much thought.
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And all of us that melee on teams are then... what?
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I don't get it. Part of the game is figuring out how to make things work for you, and part of being new to something is screwing that up.
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There are plenty of opportunities to screw up even if you have a general idea of how the AT is supposed to work.
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I don't know, but it sounds a little to me like asking for the solution to a puzzle so you can actually enjoy it.
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Not the solution, a hint.
But, on the subject, this isn't a puzzle, nor should it be. It's an action MMORPG, not Sudoku. If I want to wrack my brain trying to figure something out, I'll go read a murder mystery. If I want to fly around being a badass with Mind Control powers..
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Plus you can't hand players a guide to how to play an AT, since there isn't one. The devs might have an idea of how something should work but players are the ones that come up with the real strategies.
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I can't believe this is right. It makes too little sense.
Are you trying to tell me that the Developers designed something.. that they don't know how to work themselves? How could you possibly expect to develop something that is balanced and fits into a class dynamic if you don't know just what it can do?
If they're not doing this (and reflecting on past changes, holy christ, they aren't are they?), then why the hell not?
This seems like it's basically tantamount to 'Okay, we'll release this functionally untested and unknown quantity as a finished part of this complex game onto the public, without any warning about it's true nature. When things go pear shaped, we'll fix it a few months later'.
Speaking as a guy with a degree in programming, that concept scares the everloving [censored] out of me.
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This is why we have to tell them something doesn't work or occationally something works far too well.
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This honestly seems like their job. It's not, nor should it ever be, the player's job to act as quality assurance for anything but problems relating to having over a thousand people using something at once.
Not unless we're gonna get paid QA's wages.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Oh thank goodness. I read the rest of that post about doing missions and other PVE nastiness and just about lost hope.
Dom damage in PVE is balanced around pet assistance. Dom damage in PVP is weak because the pets rarely contribute (poor AI, no AMT command). While mez protection during Dom will be nice, I'd rather get a straight damage boost. Considering how many powers and slots we spend on attacks, our non-pet damage is pretty sad. Food for thought, Pos man.
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When I eventually rolled my Gravity/FF controller... Oh yes. Seriously, my low level controllers most certainly out-damage my low level dominator.
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That makes sense. Damage scaling hasn't set in yet, and the dominators don't have a large number of good attacks at that point.
At level 10, the controller is getting about 1.5 blaster damage out of containment. The dominator has maybe one _good_ attack by that point. Plus, the controller can buff/debuff.
Yup, containment's borken.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler