ripparubberlips

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FWIW I don't believe you can comment on whether an AT is gimped or not until you've played one or played a lot with one up to about 46 or 47 and got well into the 45-50 content.

I don't play high level doms myself, my highest is only 18



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Dom's don't play like controllers so....yeah level 18 dom...firing ballista in glass house....

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errr... all I saw were "observations" and "his perception" being offered. Why take issue with that? Neither have anything to do with what you tried to quote. /shrug

To be fair Bradd did not insinuate he would offer the advice himself.

Yesterday, when I myself realized he had a lvl 33 dom and the rest of his CoV experience hadn't passed the teens, I almost wrote a post wondering what made him feel qualified to refute some of what a couple of us had been saying. Then I went back and reread his posts, and realized that would not have been warranted.

However I will say that his position seems to be either people must be either:

A) satisfied with dominators overall

-or-

B) in need of help building/playing their doms

Personally, I'm neither. I feel I do get as much out of my dom as I can. I just feel when I do, I lag behind the effectiveness of other ATs - primarily in a team situation.

I have no issue saying based on his personal play experience, he would not be qualified to challenge that assertion. However as he did not directly do so, I left it alone.

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No doubt it's time for someone to bring up the fact that I have no proof that a majority of people who try grav doms would greatly benifit from an improvment in grav dom's broken powers. True enough, but that is my opinion based on experience, forum posts, guides (see below) and people I've talked to.

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and you are entitled to it. but you seem to accept that opinion as 'fact' or 'thuth' or 'proof' which it is not.

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I try to make a habit of not interjecting in other people's arguments but the subject of Propel's animation time was brought up and I wanted to file a motion to put that particular complaint into the "fact" column.

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as to the rest, i think most of the people YOU PLAY WITH (ie the powergamers in your VG) may think that, but it's not a solid representation of the opinion for the entire player base, regardless of how often you imply otherwise. mabey i get my enjoyment from all the complements i get from playing my dom. dont assume you know what fun is for most people, much less everyone.

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You say that as if the two concepts have to be mutually exclusive.

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I can only hope you're joking. If not, you picked the wrong AT for your play style.

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While I admit I only answered this because I thought of it and it made me laugh some, IMO there's some truth to it.

If you asked me to put together a team that could fly through PvE content - missions, SF's, etc - I don't think I'd look for a dominator.

Interestingly enough, the only reason I rolled a dom in the first place was because I had posted a long time ago that I had teamed with a few and didn't really seem to think they were doing much for a team - and I got a bunch of "learn to play, noob" responses. So I figured I just didn't understand, and maybe they were really doing a lot that I couldn't see.

I rolled a grav/psi simply because it seemed to be a solid choice if I ever got into baseraiding (i still think it is) - and decided i'd level it up to 40 before i passed any more judgement. I found I actually liked playing it a lot, but it played more like a concept build than an effective toon.

I'm usually good about researching my characters and planning out my build, and asking advice here if I'm not sure of something, and I use the test server when I'm still up in the air. I'm pretty comfortable with my build as is in the sense that I don't see much more effectiveness being squeezed out of it, short of adding hasten.

but the reality is that if I'm on a balanced team the only value I bring is leadership and some DPS - in fact if I use my soft control I slow the team down. If I hold something, someone comes over and 2-shots it. My best scenario is either a team of a few stalkers and me or a bad pickup team.

Perhaps if soft control wasn't a part of many other AT's primaries/secondaries, it would be different. But for crying out loud a stone melee brute has better soft control than I have plus an attack that will hold a boss without needing to be stacked.

I tried leveling up a plant/thorns but basically it felt like a grav set that got wormhole at level 8. Certainly more soft control than grav, I'm just not sure how much more is needed - or more accurately, how much more soft control actually helps.

I've come to the conclusion after a lot (I mean a LOT) of hours of CoV that a control primary is not going to contribute as much as the other 4 AT's on either a large team, or on a team handling +3/4/5 level mobs.

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How many Dominators would it take for there to be no risk, fast killing, and no pauses?

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Zero

hack bud, you sort of need to stop. Anything I reply to, you will rebut without taking into account what I've already posted in this thread. So please, look at a few of my previous posts, figure out what I'm saying, and stop taking things ridiculously out of context.

I'll leave it at this:

I am not using the RSF as the example. I've tried to point out how it is NOT the dom's inability to contribute on the RSF that I have an issue with. Rather it is a fundamental flaw in the AT's design that is only magnified by the RSF.

And yes, the controller would not be controlling. That's the point. Dom's should be able to do more than they currently can when hold's are negated.

Being able to perma hold an AV is not what I would call fair.

And as far as who contributes more - stalker or dom - in a team environment - a lot would depend on how you define contributing - I would imagine youd factor in control, which in my experience is not as important as you might.

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The problems that doms have with large teams are not anything that can be cured by build advice, however.

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Which is why I recommended asking for advice on build and tactics. Your large-team problems are not universal. Instead of continuing to argue fruitlessly otherwise, get help.

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I've done exactly as you've requested.

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The problem is that you have made comments like this:

"I honestly think if the RSF were EBs a corruputor, brute, or MM would still be a better choice. Stalkers - I agree that there are some effectiveness issues in this type of encounter but I don't think the vast majority of people would get onboard the "stalkers are underpowered" bus."

Which appear to separate "underpowered" from "team play".
So I pointed to an example of "power" and asked what you mean by "underpowered"...

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Wrong. You are (inexplicably) reading "team play" as meaning RSF and/or hypothetical "EB-RSF". While I feel stalkers are optimal solo, good ones do quite well in a team environment. My opinon that an all AV/EB encounter doesn't play to their strengths has nothing to do with how I feel they are able to contribute to a team.

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It's not about choosing a dominator *over* one of those.
It's about making it a reasonable alternative.

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If you want to assume that dominators are fine and it's just the RSF that's broke you're welcome to do so. But I would point out that I would happily bring a controller on the RSF. Trust me, I'd love to make dominators a reasonable alternative. My goal is not to attempt to make people feel bad, it's to point out areas the AT needs improvement. I'd like to see it improved, as I enjoy the playstyle.

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Carry it further. Pretend it was 15 bosses. 25 LTs. Anything not involving triangles. In my opinion, in any of those scenarios you're better with an AT that can flatten the difficulty curve. A dominator spikes it.

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I disagree. A dominator can perma-control part of that group.
That is a flattening, not a spike.

Same thing with a non-triangle elite boss.

Even assuming there is still a difference in overall value, at least removing the purple triangles mitigates that difference enough to where the players could reasonably choose between the archetypes.

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We can agree to disagree on this. I do not think Perma-holding AV's (which a removal of triangles would allow) is what I'm looking to be able to do.

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In other words, the devs think its fun for my powers to work 90% of PVE, and in the 10% when the chips are down, they take them away. Both my toons can do ok damage and do some slows, and thats about it against an AV. THAT is the problem, that I and some others have with doms, and its made more apparent due to the LRSF, where you face 5-8 of them (AVs) at the same time.

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/begin pure speculation

I think it comes down to the nature of control, and its intended role in this game. I believe it's designed to be crowd control, not mob-control.

In other words, the role of holds possibly are not to allow you to eliminate all risk from an encounter, but rather to bring the risk down to a manageable level.

The problem with lowering hold magnitude on an AV is that while they'd be fine in a situation like RSF if only used for crowd control, they would likely end up being used to either a)stack RSF teams with doms so there was no risk attached to it or B)make every single AV fight in the game trivial. Even with the template 2 brute/6 corr team, RSF is not a risk-free encounter.

I see sleep as essentially a hold for crowd control purposes, but not in a mob-control circumstance.

Fear, confuse.... these fall into the same categories IMO - they're not designed to take the single mob you're fighting and make him unable to fight back - they're designed to allow you to handle X number of mobs when otherwise you'd only be able to handle X-Y.

Perhaps massively overhauling the secondary effects of some powers to incorporate a heavier representation of debuffs (in both the primary/secondary) would add value to a dominator in not just "triangle" fights, but also boost their overall effectiveness without requiring things like an HP/dps/control duration boost like many ask for.

/end pure speculation

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I didn't.
I pointed it out in response to a comment that dominators are "underpowered".

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if you read the entire post you'll see I make it clear that it was in reference to team play.

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you cleary are only paying attention to your half of the conversation anyway.

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Out of curiosity, would that be the sort of comment you described earlier, where you are "discussing the subject reasonably" and someone "takes it as a personal attack"?

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technically no, since it was an observation of the irrelevance of your reply. I suppose I could have sunk some more time into coming up with a nicer way to get that point across.

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The majority of your post was opinion. Since it *was* clearly opinion, I felt no particular need to respond.

e.g. "What if RSF's last mish were 8 EB's? Triangles aren't the problem with dominators. I wholeheartedly agree that the triangle mechanism is foolish but to pretend that if they went away or were modified in some sort of way to benefit control functions that suddenly dominators would be fine is naive at best."

What more would you like me to say, other than "I disagree"?

<Shrug>



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perhaps why?

Pretend the last mission was EB's. I'm making a team to attempt it. Why would I choose a dominator over a Brute, MM or a Corruptor?

Carry it further. Pretend it was 15 bosses. 25 LTs. Anything not involving triangles. In my opinion, in any of those scenarios you're better with an AT that can flatten the difficulty curve. A dominator spikes it.

I would much rather discuss this topic vs. whether or not you appreciated the tone of my post which was not even directed at you, and (upon rereading) mild compared to the ones I tend to see in opposition to my point of view.

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With regard to the two sections I did respond to, both were attempts at denigrating the "opposition" - which I felt was uncalled for.

Insisting that the other side is "in denial" in some fashion does nothing to support your position.

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I agree with what you say in principle. I admit, I get frustrated reading this particular forum. However a quick perusal of this thread which I've followed from day one leads me to belive that neither comment was severe enough to be called out, nor would they have been if I'd shared your opinion.

I stand by the fact that many people argue in the dominator-effectiveness debate simply to argue, and often times seem to stop comprehending what is said upon realization the topic is not in line with their own opinons. To be fair, probably a lot of it goes on from the other camp as well, however the side I seem to notice the most is the side that disagrees with me - for no other reason than I tend to notice replies to my comments more often.

But to be fair, the vast majority of the rebuttals I receive are one of the following:

"You just don't understand how to play it"

"You're a min/maxxer"

"Dom's are fine, my plant/thorns -or- fire/fire soloed <insert mob here>"

And the new one, "Corruptors are overpowered"

I hope that helps some in understanding where I'm coming from.

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By the way, the same goes for everyone else who complains endlessly about dominators without asking for advice.

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---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name:
Level: 41
Archetype: Dominator
Primary: Gravity Control
Secondary: Psionic Assault
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Lift==> Acc(1)Acc(3)
01) --> Psionic Dart==> Acc(1)Acc(3)
02) --> Mind Probe==> Acc(2)Acc(5)Dmg(7)Dmg(9)Dmg(13)Rechg(15)
04) --> Gravity Distortion==> Acc(4)Acc(5)Hold(7)Hold(9)Hold(11)Rechg(15)
06) --> Hurdle==> Jump(6)
08) --> Assault==> EndRdx(8)EndRdx(13)
10) --> Teleport Foe==> Acc(10)Acc(11)
12) --> Swift==> Run(12)
14) --> Teleport==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(16)EndRdx(17)TH_Buf(17)
18) --> Gravity Distortion Field==> Acc(18)Acc(19)Hold(19)Hold(23)Rechg(25)Rechg(29)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20)EndMod(21)EndMod(21)
22) --> Drain Psyche==> Acc(22)Acc(23)Rechg(27)Rechg(37)Heal(37)Heal(37)
24) --> Stealth==> EndRdx(24)EndRdx(25)
26) --> Wormhole==> Acc(26)Acc(27)Rechg(34)Rechg(36)Rechg(36)DisDur(40)
28) --> Subdue==> Acc(28)Acc(29)Dmg(31)Dmg(31)Dmg(31)Rechg(36)
30) --> Grant Invisibility==> EndRdx(30)
32) --> Singularity==> Dmg(32)Dmg(33)Dmg(33)Hold(33)Hold(34)Hold(34)
35) --> Phase Shift==> EndRdx(35)
38) --> Psychic Shockwave==> Acc(38)Acc(39)Rechg(39)Rechg(39)Dmg(40)Dmg(40)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Domination==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------


Thinking about picking up crushing field, power sink, ball lightning and mu guardian if I ever decide to dust it off.

Tactics? Stand in between Singy and a corner, Wormhole into corner, MP/Subdue/PSW is my attack chain with Dart as a filler and Drain Psyche thrown in. I've considered dropping concealment to pick up hasten. Tough spawns I just teleport past and let singy grab agro as it follows. Tough spawns in a corner or at the end of a hall phase shift is handy, it's also handy as an oh bleep.

GDF used primarily to stack holds on bosses when Domination is down. GD used on LTs/Bosses to mitigate damage while running attack chain or to negate real tough LT's that WH missed and there's no way to use LoS to get them into the corner. PSW is up often enough with enough occasional disorients to act as a ghetto soft control when the WH disorient wears off. Lift to mitigate damage until I can cast multiple GD's if neccessary. Leadership to boost damage (anything helps on a dom) but primarily for tactics.

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If you try to discuss the subject reasonably people take it as either a personal attack or an opportunity to proclaim how great they are because they can solo some arbitrary obscure situation that occurs at most in .01% of typical gameplay.

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Presumably, that was in response to my Ballista comment.

The *point* of that comment was to get you to clarify what you meant by "underpowered", to which I have not seen a response.

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I wasn't referencing your particular comment as it seemed no different than at least 30 other ones that were rampant a few months ago. However feel free to feel included. you've essentially made my point.

FWIW I've posted numerous times what I feel are the basic flaws with this AT when in a team environment. I generally put quite a bit of time into them too, so I'm not going to reiterate them for you, since when you point out how well you can solo X in resonse to my team-effectiveness comment, you cleary are only paying attention to your half of the conversation anyway.



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As someone who enjoys playing a dominator very much but has trouble dealing with the fact that it is just simply not very good, I'm tired of reading post after post from people who refuse to admit something is wrong with this AT when you put it on a team.

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I am sure there is an equal, if not greater, number of people who are "tired of reading post after post from people who refuse to admit that there are no serious problems with this AT when you put it on a team."

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While you might be right, not only does my personal observation lead me to concluse that that person would be incorrect; Waiting patiently for that person to disprove it with something other than an opinon hasn't worked either.

It's interesting that in that entire post, those were the two comments you felt compelled to respond to.

Ack, someone killed me in SC while I was afk at the base typing up that last post. I see your plan.......

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Whether or not a dom can "out-control" a corruptor is irrelevant because a corruptor can provide enough control.

Consider brutes. A granite brute can tank the entire last mission of the RSF. Personally, while I consider that to be clearly "out-controlling" a dominator, all that matters is that it's enough control. So... are brutes overpowered as well?


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A granite brute can tank WITH THE SUPPORT OF MANY CORRUPTORS. I think this is a vitally important point. I think a LRSF with 1 corruptor would fail even if it had all the remaining members were granite brutes. First, in granite form brutes dont do great damage (DPS is low actually). Second, they still cant solo tank an AV, much less 5 AVs. I know this because granite TANKS cant do it, so its clear the brute is weaker. However, with corruptor support, they can tank it and so can other brutes (just not as well).

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Of course it requires support to tank 7 AV's with a brute. It's a team sport though. I'm not sure which tankers you've seen that can't tank an AV, but I can tank Statesman and Back Alley Brawler with no buffs or heals indefinitely. If Citadel is on me I'll need an occasional heal. If those three plus Positron are on me, I have to make sure I have buffs.

I'm not guestimating, this is a fact. So, WITHOUT THE SUPPORT OF MANY CORRUPTORS - unless you consider Speedboost, ID and some therm shields as an inconceivable investment - I can permanently take half of the mobs out of the battle. Add in demonic, nukes/shivans etc and the rest is pretty easy. Who cares about my DPS when 7 AV's are beating on me instead of my team?

Even so, I think you missed my point and I'll take the blame for that because I think I could have made it better.

I was trying to demonstrate that the only capabilities that matter are the ones that are needed for success. If there's two bosses, and the team can handle one at a time but not two, a dom is not the best possible choice simply because it could hold both. I was also poking fun at the trend where the pro-dom opinion seems to have shifted from "we're fine, learn to play, if you'd rather have a corruptor than me you're a noob" to "corruptors are overpowered, nerf triangles" without ever stopping at "dominators have some problems that need to be adressed"

If you try to discuss the subject reasonably people take it as either a personal attack or an opportunity to proclaim how great they are because they can solo some arbitrary obscure situation that occurs at most in .01% of typical gameplay.

As someone who enjoys playing a dominator very much but has trouble dealing with the fact that it is just simply not very good, I'm tired of reading post after post from people who refuse to admit something is wrong with this AT when you put it on a team.

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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor (except for stalker heavy teams), but for months trying to get that point out on these forums got me hate-mail.


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Hard to believe you got any mail at all about this (prob just people posting that disagreed with you), but I consider this hyperbole.

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I wish it were.

Someone named Red_Tape sent me this (cut and pasted right out of my mailbox):

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Sorry you don't know how to play in a team setting. Sorry you've had a bad run of bad daminators and masterminds. I'm not sorry that you're a pompus [censored]. /ignored.

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well, I guess he won't notice that I've pointed this out then.



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Other than AVs, a dom can completely 100% mitigate any damage at all from anything else in the game (bosses take ~7 seconds instead of 1 second).

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What if RSF's last mish were 8 EB's? Triangles aren't the problem with dominators. I wholeheartedly agree that the triangle mechanism is foolish but to pretend that if they went away or were modified in some sort of way to benefit control functions that suddenly dominators would be fine is naive at best.

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I dont know if I can say a dom is a BETTER choice, but most of the time they are as good as choice. Powers such as ice slick, seeds of confusion, mostly remove the need for healing (no incoming damage) and are better than debuffing, unless there are multiple corruptors on the team. Corruptors stack better than other ATs, which is why they are so good in the LRSF.

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I think we just disagree on this point. My opinon is that debuffs and (some) buffs are better because they simply allow things to be killed faster. One of the major issues I see with dominators is similar to what controllers used to complain about long, long ago - the control isn't needed on a good team. It affects dominators more now than controllers because of the fact that controllers could also (de)buff. A control primary/damage secondary simply has no value in CoV where every other AT has a damge primary and some means of damage mitigation. The closest thing to a glass cannon in CoV is a stalker and I've said a number of times the single best PvE use I've come across for a dom is a stalker heavy team - both for the control and for the crit boost.

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Corruptors are not overpowered. They have a role and they fulfill it. As do Brutes.

Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.

The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.

I'm not trying to troll, I sincerely would like to see something changed - mostly the click-nature of the inherent - to make what is clearly a team-oriented AT useful in that scenario. But the reality is that currently, on a good 8-man team, a dominator adds exactly nothing. The fact that people are seeing this same problem in RSF is no surprise to me. The AT needs a boost. Badly.

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Well, first, I can solo a large 8 man spawn with my AOE hold up on my dom (power boosted AOE hold, most dead before start cycling ST hold and laying down the slick).

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All that tells me is that Power Boost is handy and possibly belongs in every secondary if the aim is to solo 8 man spawns. It's in no way a testament to the overall team-effectiveness of dominators as an AT.

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Its the multiple AVs, with their triangles, that really make a dom less useful, combined with the stacking of corruptors that make it better to just keep adding corruptors.

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I honestly think if the RSF were EBs a corruputor, brute, or MM would still be a better choice. Stalkers - I agree that there are some effectiveness issues in this type of encounter but I don't think the vast majority of people would get onboard the "stalkers are underpowered" bus. It's simply not the best situation for them, but as I've said before, I've seen the damage a stalker is capable of pumping out vs an AV (buffed of course) and it actually surprised me.

You make a good point about (de)buff stacking possibly being a bit unfair, but remember that hard control stacks too - and so do dominator debuffs. Personally I'd hate to see (de)buffing nerfed because it would take away from something that I really like about this game compared to other MMO's which is a reliance on a healer.

I probably ought to say - I personally think some doms add more to an encounter like RSF than they do to a typical 8-man mission because of their debuffs - specifically Ice/Psi/Thorns. I'd be interested to know how people who've heavily slotted the secondary effects of their attacks have fared.

I think the current debate about dom effectiveness (it seemed to have died down for a few months or so) is in large part due to the huge increase in triangles I7 has brought. Personally I think it's the pushing the debate in the wrong direction.

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On an 8 man team, I easily carry my share and often more.

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In my experience, past the mid 20's or so the control becomes either redundant or....

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Versus 8 AVs, I can easily see why I wouldnt carry my share. Even versus 1 AV, I dont consider myself to carry the share of the load I'm used to carrying.

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...insufficient

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Its a problem caused by the decision to reduce the effectiveness of AOE holds and holds versus AVs (and players in PVP).

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Personally I think it's less an issue of holds and more an issue of soft control. I think if in a PvE environment soft control wasn't negated as much as it is now against AV's, things could be a bit brighter. I know personally on my grav my playstyle relied much more on wormhole than my AoE hold.

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I heard that doms needed more damage when I first started playing one. They added melee damage, and no change at all in the complaints. They reduced domination cycle time, so it can be up more, still no reduction in complaints. Unless they change Doms to high damage and make us the COV version of blasters, I dont see damage boosts making us better team mates, nor does adding health (another running suggestion).

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IMO the problem is that the devs took an existing primary and secondary and combined them and tried to create an AT out of it. I love the idea of a melee-range control-type with blast-type damage. I do not think existing controller primary powersets and existing blaster primary powersets should have been the basis for creating it though.

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Whatever the solution is, it has to address the lack of allowed controls vs AVs and in PVP.

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I will agree with you on the controls, with the caveat that soft controls to me seem to be the bigger issue than holds. I don't personally think I ought to be able to permanently hold an AV, but as a dominator I should be able to mitigate far more damage from it than I can currently do.

PvP... I'm really not that disappointed in how my dom functions in either solo or team PvP. Actually team PvP I think it's pretty solid. I didn't much care for the change to toggle dropping though. I do think status protection should not be linked to domination.

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Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.

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With my mind/psi, I can take out a red-conned Ballista, solo, without using a single inspiration.

IMO, that does not suggest "underpowered".

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If that is the metric you use - solo viability - to determine how the AT compares to the other 4 then sure, you might think doms are fine. However IMO your statement means nothing. In fact I said the same thing when there was a vid of a fire/fire dom soloing Johnny's Soul.

Let's say you had 200 hours on your dominator. How many minutes total have you spent soloing EB's?

I state in almost every post I make that my observations about dominators are based on their effectiveness in team PvE situations. If you come into a mission, and I can finish it just as fast (sometimes faster) by leaving you at the door, IMO there's a problem.

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The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.

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No, it's not. The purple triangles artifically limit what one archetype is capable of.

Would it be 'fair' if the purple triangles prevented debuffs or criticals while they were up?
Would it still be a magnifying glass to show what corruptors and stalkers were capable of?

No, it wouldn't.

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Dominators are not unique in having a part of their damage mitigation rendered ineffective against AVs. The problem is that dom's simply aren't bringing enough of everything else to make them useful when it happens.

Might the triangles need a review? Absolutely. In fact, perhaps something could be done with domination - even though I do not like the idea of further widening the gap b/w dom on/off but I don't think controllers need the buff - where holds can even get through with it up to some degree.

FWIW, I do think that some of the secondaries (psi/ice/thorns) have very useful secondary effects in the attacks. IMO the most value a dom would bring to RSF is in this area.

while I really think dominators are underpowered, when looking at the big picture the issue is probably less an issue with doms and more an issue with control. It seems that for the most part, in CoV any control a dom brings to a team is either redundant or it's not enough. Controllers don't have this issue because of containment.

the MAG system could probably do with a rework, as could the penalty (duration) for + level mobs.

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Heres my issue with your statment
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I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor

[/ QUOTE ]You can take out "dominator" in the statment and replace it with ANY VILLIAN AT and the statment would still ring true.

MMs have weaker secondarys, Brutes damage while great has to ramp up before it gets there (GG fury), and stalkers....poor stalkers simply cant compete with the damage a Corruptor can put out (what in a Stalkers arsenal can compete with fire breath, fireball, rain of fire, and blaze when its been augmented to rediculose levels by the likes of fulcrumshift?)


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I don't think stalkers/MMs/brutes are as underpowered as is being claimed.

A team of 8 defenders is quite awe inspiring, but it's not often they are called overpowered.

I certainly don't feel my brute or stalker is underpowered, and I feel both can bring a lot to the RSF. I've seen stalkers pump out some serious damage on the AVs. It's their sole role, and they can do better than they seem to be given credit for, at least in my experience.

MM's are a different story - in most PvE encounters they have the luxury of handling multiple mobs, while in RSF they do not. However I do feel they bring enough with their secondaries to make a consistant impact. Overall though, I would be hard pressed to call the AT as a whole underpowered.

I feel very strongly that this is a fundamental flaw with the dominator AT in general. I think the initial flaw was giving it a damage secondary but as that's not likely to ever change, IMO the inherent needs to be massively overhauled.

EDIT: just to add, yeah, i got hatemail in my inbox. blew my mind. I'm generally to the point but I don't try to troll. Suprised the hell out of me.

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I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.

Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.

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However funny this may appear, it is a valid point of view. Its the flip side of the same mirror. If (as some say) corruptors can out control a dom, its clearly a design flaw with corruptors, as they should have no ability to get close to dom level of control. Plus, controls have been nuked as too strong (vs AVs, AOE holds, etc), so if they have more controls than doms, surely corruptors need nerf. Not saying I agree with it, but its surely reasonable.

I dont know ice corruptors, so will stick with a dark corruptor.

The reason I see my dark corrutor as strong on a team, is not the damage (dark damage really isnt that good, IMO), but the AOE debuffs.

You have tar patch (- resistance and slow), darkest night (-damage, -acc), and shadowfall has an aoe buff (+defense and +resistance). Discounting the pet, thats a decent amount of damage reduced via +resist +def on team, -damage and -acc on mobs. Further, taking the case of 5 of them on a team, you now have all of the AVs bottomed out, because all of these effects overlap.

To me, its the overlap and triangles (ie. holds dont work) that really make the difference. If our AOE holds could be made perma, so 5 doms could spam AOE holds and the AVs didnt have triangles, then we would be as welcome as corruptors on the LRSF.

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The problem is not that corruptors can out control a dom.

Because, on paper they just can't.
The problem is that, Dom's don't have enough control to make up for the fact that all you need is 6 mag to get the control you need, and the fact that the next step is 50+ mag.

If dom powers were mag 6-7 BEFORE domination. Then.. You'd find that doms had enough of a mag over-load to do something about AV's.

The other option btw... is this:
Minion mag -1
Lt mag -2
Boss mag -5
EB mag -8
AV mag -8 + Triangle buff

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Whether or not a dom can "out-control" a corruptor is irrelevant because a corruptor can provide enough control.

Consider brutes. A granite brute can tank the entire last mission of the RSF. Personally, while I consider that to be clearly "out-controlling" a dominator, all that matters is that it's enough control. So... are brutes overpowered as well?

I can't think of a single situation in the game where a dominator is a better choice for a teammate than a corruptor (except for stalker heavy teams), but for months trying to get that point out on these forums got me hate-mail.

Corruptors are not overpowered. They have a role and they fulfill it. As do Brutes.

Dominators are underpowered. I wish they were not. But they are.

The RSF isn't an unfair encounter, it's simply a magnifying glass to show what the ATs are capable of.

I'm not trying to troll, I sincerely would like to see something changed - mostly the click-nature of the inherent - to make what is clearly a team-oriented AT useful in that scenario. But the reality is that currently, on a good 8-man team, a dominator adds exactly nothing. The fact that people are seeing this same problem in RSF is no surprise to me. The AT needs a boost. Badly.

I must say that after months of trying to point out overall team-PvE effectiveness issues relative to other AT's, I find this new topic almost funny.

Rather than admit doms may be underpowered, the new argument is that corruptors are overpowered.

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Yes, but Stone also is widely resisted and has a high end cost. It gives up some effectiveness for some "controllerish aspects".

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Brutes don't really have to slot for damage if they do not want to though. So it's possible to slot fault (and tremor) to make them available often and have minimal end cost. Resistance isn't the point. The point was that basically a Stone/* brute can build to essentially have a built-in ice slick. My stone Brute does way more damage than my */psi, even with PSW.

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Also control can be detrimental to a brute since that group that he just used it on is now not attacking, and not building his fury.

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this is so far from what actually occurs in a practical setting that it's a shame people believe this. I spam Fault/Tremor and have mudpots slotted with slows. You jump into enough mobs and your fury bar is pegged at 80% within a few moments.

I like the suggestion that people who like playing the melee/control style try a stone/* brute. Aside from the aoe knocks, Seismic Smash will hold a boss in one shot. It's a fun, fun set - and I think people would agree that it's closer to what a dom is supposed to play like than some dom sets.

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In fact, I'd rather have a (reasonably experienced and competent) Dominator than a Controller in many cases.

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Many? I can't think of a single situation.

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Dominators need some tweaks, but the people who think they suck wind are the ones who either want to play one as if they were a controller, or the ones who just don't have a dom playstyle and have never really run across seeing what a good Dom can do (solo or teamed).

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rofl

I love how people say that if you feel doms underperform, you simply aren't playing them correctly. After months of reading this type of argument, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps the problem is that you all don't play your other AT's correctly.

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Since the recharge of AoE holds is so slow, and that doms can't control every fight, well, that means that the teams must be able to handle a non-controlled mob. And if teh team can handle a non-controlled mob, well, err... they don't need you.

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you can even take it one step further and apply this same logic to the on/off nature of having a click inherent....

I'd be interested to hear which complaints your personal play experience mirrors. In other words, what issues do you, personally see?

I have a 40 grav/psi and a mid-teens plant/thorns. I have 2 level 50 brutes, and a couple other level 40 characters. I'd like to start by saying that I do enjoy playing my dominators, but if pressed, the reality is that I do think as an AT, it does indeed "suck". While I'd prefer to phase it differently, that's the question that was asked.

I'm not so sure the underlying issue with Doms in general is going to be adressed with a mez resist boost when domination is up. But yet - I also don't think a 5% damage boost or a 20% control boost will do much for the AT either. Although I do enjoy playing my Dom, and find the playstyle (somewhat) unique, I really feel the AT is simply - for lack of a better word - redundant.

I think to best explain what I mean, you need to look at the relative value of a "control" primary (forget the secondary for a second) within the set of CoV AT's as a whole.

Consider brutes, who are often compared to tankers. In this very thread, someone tried to claim that they are not capable of tanking using some comparative numbers to try to back up the point. The basic problem with this type of thinking is that tankers and brutes do not exist within the same PvE game. Brutes, in addition to being able to easily outdamage tankers, are in a game where 4 of the 5 AT's have a damage dealing primary. Perhaps one could argue that a Brute can't tank quite as well as a tanker if you were to place him CoH, but my experience has been that for CoV, a brute is easily able to fill that role when teamed with other CoV AT's.

Dominators probably do have "enough" control to be effective in CoV if control is the goal - regardless of how the numbers compare to controllers in CoH. To me the issue simply comes down to how neccessary "control" is within CoV. As mentioned, I've leveled two brutes to 50 and not once within those 100 levels of play have I ever been in a situation where I "needed" something locked down. The single best use of a dominator I've come across is to boost stalker damage.

What I think when I read posts along the lines of "the team was having a horrible time until my dom showed up" is simply - must have been a pretty poor team. It seems likely to me that in every one of those cases, a brute, corruptor or MM probably would have improved the team as much if not more.

My favorite post in this thread was from the dom who was planning on (when he got to the RSF someday) handling the 8 AV pull using SoC and sleep. Make sure someone on your team has vengence. But post after post in thread after thread are similar - people saying how by doing X, Y and Z their dom completely "dominated" some PvE content. The funny thing is, in all of those situations a competent brute could just wade in. Or in some cases, a MM.

Perhaps it's just my playstyle, or the guys I regularly group with - but we all have leveled up doms (one even has a fire/fire) to 40 and have no real interest in getting them to 50. Once you've played 9 or 10 different CoV AT combos it's apparent that a control primary, at least within CoV, is something that really only shines on a bad team.

Take the RSF. I've read numerous reports about how a dom was able to hold an AV or two for some time. Yet my brute still has to be able to take the beating when they're not held. I'd rather see that team spot taken by someone who can either buff, debuff, handle agro or pump out damage the entire time to flatten out the difficulty curve rather than spike it.

I think dominators probably sounded good in theory, but in reality they would be much more valuable if they were a controller swap - "defender" primary and "controller" secondary. Getting pets at 38 plus some of the PPP options (and keeping the inherent exactly as domination currently is) would allow some nice damage in the 40-50 game, and much more value in future endgame content (that hopefully resembles RSF) as well as team PvP. It would also correct the glaring issue of corruptor love on the RSF. I can see why the devs went in the existing direction for concept - doms certainly seem more villainous than a flipped controller, but sometimes concept can take a backseat to gameplay.

One last thing, it's getting tiresome to continually reread from the same people over and over how "dominators are fine if you're smart enough to play them". Trust me, dominators are not difficult to play. While I've seen my share of poorly played doms (rofl - the other day on the kill Scirocco mission with all the mu, a dom kept ice slicking the mus), there's just as many poorly played brutes/corrs/stalkers/MMs out there.

I'm sorry if I come across as a hater, as that's not my intent. If anything, it's frustration. As mentioned, I enjoy the dominator playstyle, however I do not enjoy playing a character that - on a very solid team - I will without question be able to contibute less to its success than my teammates.

So you want to swing a big rock lollipop and look like you hang around with poo-flinging monkeys? Yeah, see, I did too – and I found satisfaction with a little something I like to call a Stone/Stone Brute. In all seriousness though, I’m hopefully going to be able to shed some light on this combo – talk about my experiences with it, and provide some build ideas that will help you level quickly and effectively – and have a blast along the way.

First of all, let me start off by saying that by far, this has been the most fun character I’ve played in CoX. I think it’s exactly what a lot of folks had hoped tanks would be. I remember long ago I used to have a regen scrapper and I played almost every night in a duo with an Invuln/Stone tanker. I always thought it looked like a very fun melee set, but never played it until CoV. I truly think, without question, from a pure sensory perspective – nothing is more SMASHing than Stone Melee. The first time you ever chain Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet and Seismic Smash with high fury you’ll enter some sort of Zen SMASH mode that defies articulation.

Stone Armor is an interesting set. It forces you to take some tough choices along the way, but I really think it meshes well with Stone Melee – together they allow you to do some pretty impressive stuff, even pre-granite.

Let’s get into the power sets themselves.

Stone Melee

Stone Melee is probably best defined as a hard-hitting, fast-activating, slow-recharge, high-end-cost power set. What this means from a practical standpoint is that provided you can offset the end-costs + recharge rates, you can chain attacks extremely fast – which = fury. Some folks like to say Stone is a “slow” set – I disagree strongly. I think it’s lightning fast. You just need to understand its weaknesses, and optimize accordingly.

(NOTE*** While I’m starting to see some people recently posting along similar lines, since I began my brute I came to the (seemingly rare) conclusion that Stone/Stone doesn’t need damage enhancements. I eventually slotted some damage in after I hit 40, but leveling up I never purchased a single damage enhancement, and never once felt my damage was lacking, even slightly. I strongly recommend anyone leveling up a Stone Brute to at least try this. IMO, being able to attack nonstop while running some of your high-end toggles will make you far more effective than slotting for damage. Any suggested slotting takes this mindset into account. YMMV. Please keep in mind ANY suggestions and slotting recommendations I make are for PvE purposes only. I personally don’t think a solid PvP build for Stone/Stone = a solid PvE build, and vice-versa)

Stone Fist – 5.2 End, .57 Activation, 4.0 Recharge, BI 2.77
A staple. In the early levels this will probably (along with Brawl) be your main fury builder. You could probably slot 1 acc, 1 rech, 1 end redux and leave it at that. Remember, to build fury you want fast, low-end attacks. This is as good as it gets in Stone Melee. Has a stun/disorient that is not very much to write home about.

Stone Mallet – 8.3 End, 1.17 Activation, 8.0 Recharge, BI 4.56
A “tweener”. At the end of the day, this is the misfit of the single-target Stone attacks. It’s got some decent punch, but as it’s the second “smallest” attack you get, it often finds its way into your fury building chains. This is not all that endurance efficient though, which is why (as you’ll see later) I recommend adding a pool attack. The real upside to Stone Mallet is the knockdown. It (along with Heavy Mallet) have a good chance at knocking your opponent on its rear. I’d slot it 2 acc, 1 rech. 1 end redux.

Heavy Mallet – 11.86 End, 1.17 Activation, 12 Recharge, BI 6.33

Oh baby. This is your heavy hitter until you pick up Seismic Smash. Keep the reigns on this though until your fury is high. Otherwise you’re just wasting endurance. Remember, an attack has the same endurance cost whether your fury bar is at 5% or 95%. The difference in damage though is extreme. This is what I mean about optimizing. Opening up a fight with Heavy Mallet is just wasting precious endurance. This attack has a small knock-up that is about as reliable as the knockdown of Stone Mallet. I’d slot this just like Stone Mallet. If you want, you could throw a damage or two in here but realistically I think Stone/Stone builds are tight enough that I wouldn’t do this until you’re absolutely certain you won’t need the slot elsewhere.

Build Up – 5.2 End, .73 Activation, 90 Recharge, 10 Duration

Build Up basically provides a severe, short-term boost to Damage and Accuracy. I never took BU, but I can see the benefit of taking it. In retrospect, it might have been a better pick than Stone Skin, but I never felt like I wished I had it. In a PvE build, I don’t think it’s critical, but if you like big numbers it is certainly a viable choice. I just felt like I would have been gimping myself if I didn’t slot enough accuracy for when BU would be down, so it really came down to damage. I’d say grab it in your 20’s if you feel gimp, grab something else if you feel like you’re doing enough damage. I’d slot 3 rech, 1 to-hit.

Fault – 10.19 End, 2.1 Activation, 20 Recharge

This is an AoE (pretty decent range) knockdown. No damage. People's opinions on this power are polarized - to say the least. Personally, for PvE, I think it’s a great power to take at least early on. Stone/Stone is going to eventually blossom into the most durable beast known to mankind – but the sad reality is that until you pick up granite, you’re a bit squishier than you might think. This is a great way to stagger an alpha, and to basically do some crowd control. The real downside is spending 1/10th of your end bar for no damage. I think you can live with that though, especially at the lower levels where it WILL boost your survivability. I’d slot 1 acc, 1 end redux.

Taunt – 1.67 Activation, 10 Recharge

I don’t see a need for Taunt in a PvE build. I’ve played with it a bit on test – and can see the PvP benefits – but for leveling up and PvE I’d recommend skipping this.

Seismic Smash – 18.52 End, 1.5 Activation, 20 Recharge, BI 9.89

Here’s where it just gets silly. Like HM, this is a high-fury attack. It does ridiculous damage (you’ll one-shot stuff with high-fury) – but at the cost of 1/5th of your end bar. Some people like to open with this attack – because in addition to its nice damage, it has a stun/hold (Listen, I don’t know which one it is, but it seems like a stun) but I don’t advise this. Between your mallets and (hopefully) your pool attack you oughta be able to keep even a boss flopping around to some degree. As far as slotting, this should be six-slotted. It’s by far your best single target attack, and should be optimized. I slotted it 2 acc, 2 rech, 2 end at first, then later on switched one of the rech’s to a 3rd end. If you want to go with damages on this I cant blame you, but by all means – six slot this and optimize it to your playstyle. You’re selling yourself short if you do not. Note* - I do NOT think slotting for hold duration is a good use of a slot for PvE. You have enough knockdown/ups to make this redundant. It’s not like you’re going to SS, then wait for the stun to wear off.

Hurl Boulder – 9.36 End, 3.83 Activation, 8 Recharge, BI 4.56

Your ranged attack. It comes down to taste – I never personally felt the need (or wished I had it). However it is a nice amount of damage, and most of the time (as you’re going to learn) you can’t jump – so it has its uses. It’s a nice utility power, but for me, the deciding factor was simply there were better powers to take, and I could barely fit all of them into my build. Situational powers didn’t make the cut.

Tremor – 13.52 End, 3.3 Activation, 14 Recharge, BI 2.778

Your final power – at first glance might seem a little… bit of a letdown…. “Woot an AoE that does some damage! Wait – it’s… Stone Fist damage??!??!” At least that’s how I felt. But, after playing with it a bit on test, I ended up 6 slotting it 2 acc, 2 rech, 2 end – and I love it. I use it more as an opener when I’m doing 8-man relentless missions. It’s like Fault – it has an AoE knockdown – only better, since it recharges faster plus has at least SOME damage. Plus, since nothing builds fury faster than suddenly finding yourself in the middle of 20 mobs, the damage adds up. Couple this with Fault and you can basically handle spawns that you most certainly could not without it.



Stone Armor

Stone Armor is defined by its final power – Granite. Without compare, Granite is as tough as you can get in CoV (at least in a toggle). However, it’s one thing to choose a powerset for its level 38 power – it’s quite another to level up to that point without it. In truth, Stone Armor is probably a bit on the weaker side from 1-37. It’s primarily a defense-based set so you’ll take your lumps. However, all in all, I feel when combined with the single target & AoE knocks from the Stone Melee set, Stone Armor is certainly strong enough – and based on observation, combined they are more survivable than most combinations. But, being as this is CoX – everything has a price. Stone has (charmingly enough) some heavy penalties – the most noticeable is speed.

Rock Armor – (Toggle) .24 End/Sec

This is your first and most used armor. It’s the well known “poo suit” you see often enough, and it provides defense vs. smashing/lethal damage. As this is the most common type of damage you’ll face, it makes sense to have this up at all times. Rock Armor will stack with the other armors (Crystal, Brimstone, Minerals) as well as your other toggles (Rooted, Mudpots) – but does NOT stack with Granite. As far as slotting goes, I’d definitely put 3 defbuffs in it, and I personally had an end redux in it.

Stone Skin – (Passive)

Again, this provides protection to smashing/lethal – but this is resist, not defense. It’s only about 5.5% or so, so don’t trip over yourself to grab it early, but it IS useful since its effect will stack with Granite’s resistance – plus if you grab Tough down the road it will stack with that. I think I ended up throwing a second resist slot in it but all in all it’s not going to make or break you. If you plan on taking this, you can certainly hold off until later on.

Earth’s Embrace – 10.4 End, 2.0 Activation, 360 Recharge, 120 Duration

This is the Stoner version of Dull Pain, and a staple of the Stone Armor set. Get this as soon as you can, and if possible, 6-slot it 3 rech, 3 heal. Essentially it will raise your max HP for a time, and (if needed) heal you. It can be used as a pre-fight buff, but honestly I tend to wait until I take a bit of damage before I use it, unless I’m fighting a Hero or AV or something and I don’t want to get one-shotted. The real nice thing about EE is that when your HP are boosted, your regen is more powerful (since regen is based on a % of your max HP). But more about that later.

Mudpots – (Toggle) .98 End/Sec, BI .42

This is a PBAoE Taunt/Slow/Damage field. Not a ton of damage, nor is the slow particularly impressive unslotted. And the endurance cost is VERY high. Nevertheless, I think this is a great power. First of all, you need at least 2 SO end redux enhancements in it to be able to operate even remotely effectively while this is running. Personally, I used 3. A single slow enhancement will make a noticeable difference as well. While AoE damage doesn’t count towards fury building, the mobs this attracts will obviously be beating on you, which does build fury. And once your fury is up the damage will actually start to add up after a while, especially on big spawns. Taking this power will (as if you weren’t going to already) essentially force you into taking Stamina.

Rooted – (Toggle) .19 End/Sec

Finally, status resist. This protects you from everything except Fear/Confuse, plus doubles your base regen – and protects against Endurance draining mobs (Eat this, Mu Guardian!). Slotted for heal, combined with Earth’s Embrace’s HP boost – you’ll actually be able to notice the regen. This helps your pre-granite levels immensely. I’d slot this 1 (or two) end redux and 3 heals if possible. Here, though, is where the first sign of Stone Armors uberness having a price occurs – when you’re rooted you’re literally… rooted. Your run speed takes a major hit – and you can’t jump (you will find tiny curbs or 6-inch ledges to be the bane of your existence) or fly – and you can’t even use sprint. Rooted’s (and eventually Granite’s) slow penalty are what prompt many Stoners to opt for the Teleport power pool.

Brimstone Armor – (Toggle) .24 End/Sec

Protection vs. fire and cold damage. I admit this is actually a pretty good power because it’s resistance, not defense. That is – pretty good for when you need protection against fire and cold. If I took this power I’d probably 3 slot it for resist and maybe even slap in an end redux – but in practical situations, I haven’t really ever seemed to find too many situations where this would have been worth the power choice. Like Rock Armor, this can be used with all toggles except Granite. Never took it, never missed it. This is IMO one of those powers where the adage “I’m a brute, not a tank” really seems to hold.

Crystal Armor – (Toggle) .24 End/Sec

Protection vs. energy (and negative energy). Unlike Brimstone, this is defense, not resist. So (at least pre I7), not as effective on +2/3 mobs. Unlike Brimstone – I can say for sure that there have been a number of situations where this does make some sense as a power selection (Wailers, CoT etc). I eventually decided not to take it – and based my decision on a couple factors. First, I knew I was getting Tremor 4 levels later which would help my survivability. Secondly, I knew once I got Granite I would have absolutely no need for this power. Now, I admit that the grind from 28-38 isn’t exactly the same as the grind from 1-11. It was a pretty significant amount of time. But I made that decision, and I never really regretted it. I might have saved myself three or four faceplants over the course of those 10 levels if I’d had it – not enough of a reason for me. YMMV. I can certainly see the upside. The choice is yours. Slot it like all the other armors – 3 Defbuf and 1 end redux.

Minerals – (Toggle) .24 End/Sec

Psionics protection - defense, not resist. While I admit I haven’t seen enough Psi damage to really give me pause (nor felt like Minerals helped all that much when I did) – I did grab this power. It has two nice benefits aside from the Psi protection that were, for me, enough to make it worth the choice. The first is that with just one extra slot in it, Succubi don’t seem to ever land Confusion on me. Admittedly, hitting my corruptor teammate with a rock-on-a-stick can be fun, I didn’t want to take the chance of pissing off one of the 5 */kins on my server that actually took Speed Boost. Plus, it has a nice +Perception bonus that is real helpful vs. Arachnos. Besides, you’re not going to find Psi protection anyplace else in Stone Armor. Definitely not a critical power, and one could easily argue that crystal is the more beneficial power. Up to you.

Granite Armor – (Toggle) .46 End/Sec

OK power, might want to get it. YMMV.

Uh, hello?!? This, my friends, is where the magic happens. First of all – nothing in the world can prepare you for the first time you click Granite. Even if the power sucked, it would still be worth getting just for the graphic. My brute was a sub-4 foot girl in a hot pink bikini + go-go boots – but in Granite she’s about 7 feet tall. Fricking awe-some. Plus – nothing sounds SMASHier than running down a hall in granite. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Just… wow.

But… it is an armor – and a damn good one. First of all – in a lot of cases, you can fight without Rooted since Granite offers protection against all of the same status effect. You will however, want to stay in rooted while fighting stuff like Longbow SpecOps (or other endurance-draining mobs). Or if you want the Regen from Rooted for especially tough mobs, or mobs that do Psi.

That’s right, No Psi defense/resistance from Granite. But you do get defense/resistance to everything else. Yep, that’s right, anything that Rock/Brimstone/Crystal can do (plus most of Rooted) – but better. Because it’s both defense and resist, it means you’re taking less hits, and when you do – you’re taking less damage. You’ll see your ability to withstand waves and waves of mobs increase exponentially with Granite up.

But Granite has its price. Aside from having a slowing effect on par (though IMO not quite as bad) as Rooted, combine the two and you literally can’t move enough to make it worth trying. You’re not fixed, but the run speed is so reduced (even with 3 slots in swift) that you either need to drop rooted and move slow as a snail (but at least move) or Teleport. Even if you’re trying to get only 5-10 feet away. I cannot overemphasize how slow you are with both Rooted/Granite up. Granite also has the same restrictions as Rooted with respect to fly, jump and sprint. Plus, your attack speed takes a fairly significant hit. Because of this, many Stoners opt for Hasten (and pine for the old Pre-ED days). Lastly, (though of the penalties, this seems the least annoying) your damage is decreased.

Granite is probably used by most as a situational power – once the alpha has been withstood and it’s safe to do so, most stoners will drop out of Granite and finish up a fight with Rock/Rooted. Slotted the way I’ve suggested, it is possible to fight in Granite full time, though I honestly don’t unless I have Speed Boost.

Get Granite, slot it 3 Resist/3 Defbuf, and go rock out.

Pool Powers

Concealment – No need in PvE

Fighting – This is probably a popular pool for many Stone/Stoners. Boxing is a decent fury-building attack that will work well with Stone Fist/Brawl keeping your endurance costs under control until you can start one and two-shotting things with HM & SS. The real bonus here is that Boxing paves the way for Tough, which would help Stone Armor quite a bit, especially stacked with Stone Skin. I’d recommend this for someone who wanted a bit more survivability.

Fitness – You need this pool. Just don’t take Hurdle. Get swift and try to get it 3 slotted – life will be so much easier while in Rooted or Granite. Get Health and try to three slot it, as it will combine with the regen you’re already getting from Rooted/EE. And Stamina is your biggest issue from 1-40. I don’t even need to tell you to three slot this.

Flight – Personally, I didn’t go with Boxing/Tough and instead opted for Air Superiority. It has a very reliable knockdown, and it meshes real well with Stone Melee. It was more quality of life than anything, but with the build I wanted for PvE I knew I wouldn’t have been able to fit in Tough and Stone Skin. So I went with Stone Skin and AS, sacrificing some resistance for a slightly better (due to its secondary effect) attack. Either way you opt to go, I would go one route or the other, as a second fury building attack to compliment Stone Fist is, IMO, a huge help.

Leadership – Meh

Leaping – Sadly, there’s no way I can see to take the best of the best travel powers on a Stoner.

Medicine – I’ve heard people suggest getting Aid Self. Maybe for PvP or something, but the reality is that for PvE, not only am I not willing to give up a second fast attack but also the fact that you have to take either Aid Other or Stimulant made this a complete no-brainer to me. No thank you. The heal from EE + the regen if you slot right make this unnecessary IMO.

Presence – Meh

Speed – Hasten is useful while in Granite. Other than that, I don’t see the need (as slotted) in my attack chains for more speed. I’d grab it by 30, but, if taken earlier, and used only to speed up the recharge on Earth’s Embrace, it could be helpful.

Teleportation – A long time ago I vowed never to take this pool again as my sole travel power. The reality is that it makes a Stoner’s life a LOT easier, and it’s pretty easy to get used to, and certainly bearable as a travel power. You’ll hate it once you start getting CoT missions in the northern part of Nerva (Where’s the f-ing door?!?! All I see are trees!!!) but like I’ve been saying … Everything has a price. You’ll use TP a lot to move around while in Granite/Rooted. I’d probably suggest TP Foe over TP Friend – but that’s your choice.

Combat

Generally, What I tended to do (even pre-granite) was to throw up my appropriate armor, mudpots & rooted, target the boss, zoom out, hit TP, get the reticule as close to the boss as possible, reset camera, begin teleporting and queue up Fault. Slotted with only one ACC, Fault would only flop about half the mobs, but enough to stagger the alpha enough for me to have time to pop Earths Embrace if needed, but if not needed I’d just open with AS on the boss and start my fury-building chain. Once I got Tremor I’d open with that instead, as it eliminated the (annoying) situation that arises when I was a few feet off on my teleport and was out of range from my target. (When that happened I’d just hit escape to lose a target and spam fault to hit it off the closest mob – one is always in range when you teleport in). Tremor was nice on that front as it doesn’t need a target to fire. With Fault/Tremor, on average you have an AoE knockdown available once every 5-7 seconds. By the time the first mob was down fury would be so high that between mudpots & tremor I’m doing substantial damage to the minions and with my hammers and Seismic Smash I’m 2-shotting anything I see. Moving fast from spawn to spawn opens up the possibility of Teleporting into the next group of mobs and opening up with a Seismic Smash at high fury. Rarr.

Build

Stone/Stone Builds are tight. As I mentioned at the beginning, my preference has been to slot for Acc/Rech/End Redux. I leveled 90% from 1-40 in PuGs, and this worked best for me. Now, at level 40, I find myself teamed up with a */kin corruptor most of the time. Even with Speed Boost, I like being slotted as such. We rip through stuff so damn fast it’s honestly just scary sometimes.

So, here’s my suggestion for two builds, one with and one without Tough. With both of these, the slotting will really come down to preference – If you feel something needs to be faster, less end-costly, tougher, whatever…. Keep in mind this is just a suggestion.

Build 1 (Tough)
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name:
Level: 41
Archetype: Brute
Primary: Stone Melee
Secondary: Stone Armor
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Stone Fist==> Acc(1)Rechg(3)EndRdx(5)
01) --> Rock Armor==> EndRdx(1)DefBuf(13)DefBuf(13)DefBuf(34)
02) --> Stone Mallet==> Acc(2)Rechg(3)EndRdx(5)Acc(7)
04) --> Earth's Embrace==> Rechg(4)Rechg(11)Rechg(11)Heal(15)Heal(33)Heal(36)
06) --> Boxing==> Acc(6)EndRdx(7)
08) --> Heavy Mallet==> Acc(8)Rechg(9)EndRdx(9)Acc(15)
10) --> Teleport Foe==> Acc(10)
12) --> Swift==> Run(12)
14) --> Teleport==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Rooted==> EndRdx(16)EndRdx(17)Heal(17)Heal(34)Heal(34)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)Heal(19)Heal(19)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20)EndMod(21)EndMod(21)
22) --> Seismic Smash==> Acc(22)Rechg(23)EndRdx(23)Acc(25)EndRdx(31)EndRdx(36)
24) --> Fault==> Acc(24)EndRdx(25)Rechg(29)
26) --> Mud Pots==> EndRdx(26)EndRdx(27)EndRdx(27)
28) --> Tough==> EndRdx(28)EndRdx(29)DmgRes(31)DmgRes(31)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30)Rechg(37)Rechg(37)
32) --> Tremor==> Acc(32)EndRdx(33)Rechg(33)Rechg(37)Acc(40)
35) --> Minerals==> EndRdx(35)DefBuf(36)
38) --> Granite Armor==> DmgRes(38)DmgRes(39)DmgRes(39)DefBuf(39)DefBuf(40)DefBuf(40)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Fury==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------


Build 2 (No Tough)
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.5.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name: SMSAnotough
Level: 41
Archetype: Brute
Primary: Stone Melee
Secondary: Stone Armor
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Stone Fist==> Acc(1)Rechg(3)EndRdx(5)
01) --> Rock Armor==> EndRdx(1)DefBuf(15)DefBuf(15)DefBuf(31)
02) --> Stone Mallet==> Acc(2)Rechg(3)EndRdx(5)Acc(7)
04) --> Earth's Embrace==> Rechg(4)Rechg(11)Rechg(13)Heal(13)Heal(31)Heal(37)
06) --> Air Superiority==> Acc(6)Rechg(7)
08) --> Heavy Mallet==> Acc(8)Acc(9)EndRdx(9)Rechg(11)Rechg(37)
10) --> Teleport Foe==> Acc(10)
12) --> Swift==> Run(12)
14) --> Teleport==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Rooted==> EndRdx(16)EndRdx(17)Heal(17)Heal(31)Heal(37)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18)Heal(19)Heal(19)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20)EndMod(21)EndMod(21)
22) --> Seismic Smash==> Acc(22)Acc(23)EndRdx(23)EndRdx(25)Rechg(29)EndRdx(29)
24) --> Fault==> Acc(24)EndRdx(25)Rechg(36)
26) --> Mud Pots==> EndRdx(26)EndRdx(27)EndRdx(27)Slow(40)
28) --> Stone Skin==> DmgRes(28)
30) --> Hasten==> Rechg(30)Rechg(34)Rechg(36)
32) --> Tremor==> Acc(32)EndRdx(33)Rechg(33)Rechg(33)Acc(34)EndRdx(34)
35) --> Minerals==> EndRdx(35)DefBuf(36)
38) --> Granite Armor==> DmgRes(38)DmgRes(39)DmgRes(39)DefBuf(39)DefBuf(40)DefBuf(40)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Fury==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------


Conclusion

Well, that’s about it – my first guide. I hope if you’re looking for a Brute power set combo, you try Stone/Stone – It’s been a blast for me to play and hopefully my suggestions make it a bit more fun for you as well. Feel free to ask me anything or rag on my guide @ripparubberlips or come say hi on Pinnacle Server.