Do dominators suck like people say they do?
By
Aleshanee_NA,
Posted on: 2006-07-05 13:59 in Dominators
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There is NOTHING worse than popping domination then getting held/slept et cetera for my dom- as such
<performs the Happy Dance>
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Yup, this is usually how I die at the boss fight. Those energy melee bosses.. ugh. Stun me, 3-4 hits and I am done. If I am lucky, I have one break free to help myself run away.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I will have to find a way to include hasten for all my doms now...
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I will have to find a way to include hasten for all my doms now...
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OH yeah, good suggestion!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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Not that this won't help in PvE, but with Domination up you're less likely of getting mezzed. Doesn't this sound a lot like a PvP oriented change?
*Baits Controller by standing still, looking afk*
*Controller hits hold*
*I hit Domination and pwn some controller a$$*
You have to wonder what the Mag of Domination's status protection is, though. Remember, Controllers have a fairly easy time stacking enough magnitude to break through most status protection.
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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All of that, plus the ability to break out of an existing hold by activating Domination? Uber-Domination Mode just became Ultra-Uber-Domination Mode ...
I'm still not sure it's wise to put all of a Dominator's eggs in one basket and tie all of our effectiveness almost entirely to Domination; there's not much that we agree on in the Dom Forum, but I suspect that it would be almost universally agreed that Doms are more than fine once Domination is activated. It's the downtime in between Domination that needs some tweaks -- just nothing major prefarably, that would require a downgrade of Domination.
Regardless, it's good to see some Dev attention coming our way.
Kid Lazarus, 50 empath Defender
Freek, 50 mind/psi Dominator
Black Khopesh, 43 db/wp Scrapper
Circuit-Boy, 40 elec Brute
Graf von Eisenfaust, 38 db/wp Brute
Blue Banshee, 35 sonic Blaster
Blood Countess, 33 mind/storm Controller
Dr. Radon, 32 rad Corruptor
Phantom Pirate, 32 db/wp Stalker
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What of single holds and soft control?
You don't need a dom for that either. Many other ATs have single holds. Ice or Dark corruptors. Mastermind pets. Even brutes and stackers can stun opponents. Same for soft control. Is it normal that a /dark brute with oppressive gloom offers a more reliable control then a dom? Or a /dark MM with Fearsome Stare? How about Siren's Call from Sonic primary?
As a dominator, there are many situations where my teamates just plain outdid me when it came to controlling mobs.
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Yep, people here come up with corrupters a lot who can control pretty well compared to a dom. However, brutes are forgotten and some of them can control pretty darn well too. you want an awesome melee "controller" type try stone/dark brute. Fault: An 8 second base AoE disorient against minions with a 50% chance to "crit" and affect a lieutenant, a knockdown, and a 20 second recharge so with the right slotting can be pretty much permanant.
Stack fault with Oppressive Gloom's toggle disorient and you'll have up to bosses disoriented (and knocked down a lot of the time), in an AoE, pretty much all the time and done faster than a dom can usually pull off.
Combine that with a brute's defense and damage... 
I suggest those that want to play a "melee" dom would probably do better with something like that.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.
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I'd *much* rather have Support for a secondary than Assault. I think Doms would give their left mouse button for Dark Miasma or Thermal Radiation as a secondary long, long before a Controller would ever ask for any Assault set instead.
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The reason for this is that controllers essentially already HAVE an assault secondary. When holds work (99% of PVE), trollers do as much damage or more than dominators. This isnt a fair comparison, because trollers are like dominators with buffs/debuffs/heals, what not to like?
Controller damage is slightly reduced by not having the number of attacks to complete a good attack chain, but if you build in pool attacks (air superiority, box, etc), you can get a decent attack chain, that does great damage once containment sets in (doubling you enhanced damage makes even brawl look pretty decent, not to mention triple in PVP).
This is the problem with comparing doms and trollers, trollers didnt originally have any real damage, making people want what became dominators. However, in the meantime, controllers gained real good damage in addition to the uber team assist powers in control and buff/debuffs/heals.
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So, you're saying the Devs have made a huge oversight when designing Containment for Controllers?
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Yes. I think so. I think controllers as originally built were balanced, but not real fun (very slow and weak, couldnt solo pre-pet to uber devastation after pet). The high level uberness balanced the low level wimpiness. Lack of defense/resists/offense was balanced via lack of threat (ie perma -AOE holds).
Then, for game play, aoe holds had to be nuked (ie. city of statues), as well as a way out of a hold for toons without mez protection (BFs) and AV fights needed more challenge (triangles). As a balancer for these changes that mainly hurt controllers, they were given damage that hinged on holds. And this means their AT can now solo at low levels, and cant hold as good as they used to, but are still great on teams.
The problem is, containment basically gave trollers a damage secondary. Do they do more damage than a dominator? Hard to say, but its close enough I've never seen a decent analysis prove they dont, and some appear to do more. If its even close, doms lose out, because we dont have buff/debuff/heal. So, they have more use from their primary (longer holds), lots of use from secondary (buff/debuff/heals), and do as much damage as we do with our secondary. Hard for me to see that as balanced.
However, I will go ahead and say the troller changes were for the better. IMO, they were pitiful below level 32 before containment. So, to me, the fix should focus on doms, not controllers.
I think Bekkar said what I think better than I did. Controllers were borked, now really good, but what about doms?
I was hoping for something outside of domination also, but if this is the way it is to be: So begins the great race to domination...
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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What of single holds and soft control?
You don't need a dom for that either. Many other ATs have single holds. Ice or Dark corruptors. Mastermind pets. Even brutes and stackers can stun opponents. Same for soft control. Is it normal that a /dark brute with oppressive gloom offers a more reliable control then a dom? Or a /dark MM with Fearsome Stare? How about Siren's Call from Sonic primary?
As a dominator, there are many situations where my teamates just plain outdid me when it came to controlling mobs.
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Yep, people here come up with corrupters a lot who can control pretty well compared to a dom. However, brutes are forgotten and some of them can control pretty darn well too. you want an awesome melee "controller" type try stone/dark brute. Fault: An 8 second base AoE disorient against minions with a 50% chance to "crit" and affect a lieutenant, a knockdown, and a 20 second recharge so with the right slotting can be pretty much permanant.
Stack fault with Oppressive Gloom's toggle disorient and you'll have up to bosses disoriented (and knocked down a lot of the time), in an AoE, pretty much all the time and done faster than a dom can usually pull off.
Combine that with a brute's defense and damage... I suggest those that want to play a "melee" dom would probably do better with something like that.
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Yes, but Stone also is widely resisted and has a high end cost. It gives up some effectiveness for some "controllerish aspects". Also control can be detrimental to a brute since that group that he just used it on is now not attacking, and not building his fury.
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We've got a nice tweak to the Domination ability coming down the pipe (it will crank up your Mez resistance while it is active), and are currently data-mining PvP to see what effect our last set of tweaks to the AT have had.
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Actually, I'd prefer to have some good mez protection when NOT in Domination mode, and have it go away in Domination mode.
The real issue is the lackluster abilities outside of Domination, which is most of the time. I think that's what turns most players off the archetype. It's easy to give up on dominators by the late teens when you're doing mediocre damage most of the time with high endurance costs. Beefing up Domination won't make the archetype any more attractive, since Domination is already very nifty.
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I'd second this idea. Seems like it would hopefully appeal to the devs idea of risk vs. reward still too. Make doms safer outside of domination, but to become more powerful in our holding and damage with domination activated, we get the drawback of becoming "vulnerable" to mezzing. 
Edit: Oh well, from Castle's posts sounds like the other way is already a done thing.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.
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Not in time to reach...holy cow, this is like being released like today or something? 
Nice. Thanks for the clarification Castle. Sounds real interesting, cant wait to see how it runs.
All we need now is to add an extremely high regen buff to domination and we'll be ready 
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Actually, by the numbers, Dominators outdamage Controllers until the controllers can pick up the epic pools. Fire Mastery + Containment = sick damage.
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And even if I were to agree with you, is this a good thing? In my experience Controller > Dominator at pretty much every level - but definitely at 41+.
I REALLY hate being balanced around a timer.. but I will admit that, if I have to be, having a Gamma Powered Break Free at my fingertips while I am is going to be very nice.
We're getting somewhere with this now.
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Out of curiosity, does this tweak include the ability to fire off domination when mezzed?
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Not initially, but the patch following should have it. I forget to stick that in on the original change, and QA helpfully pointed it out, but not in time to reach the version going out.
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So...going into a fight with a full dom. bar dominator while you're playing a controller is just going to be utter suicide now?
Well, I wouldn't say utter suicide. The Controller could very well have mez resistance too, and may be able to do all sorts of nasty tricks like healing, debuffing the hell out of you (I didn't see -recharge or slow on that list), throwing a pile of super-buffed pets at you, or simply out playing you.
Do not underestimate the bag of tricks that is a Buff/Debuff set. An Ice/Kinetics Controller can do HORRIBLE things to you without even achiving a basic immobilize effect.
At this point, it looks like Domination is supposed to be equivalent to a Tier9. Do the same thing you would to any other time-limited power that pumps the heck out of your opponent's difficulty--come back in a minute, when you'll rock him.
Looks like Kineticists have just become the Dominator's best friends.
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Yes, but Stone also is widely resisted and has a high end cost. It gives up some effectiveness for some "controllerish aspects".
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Brutes don't really have to slot for damage if they do not want to though. So it's possible to slot fault (and tremor) to make them available often and have minimal end cost. Resistance isn't the point. The point was that basically a Stone/* brute can build to essentially have a built-in ice slick. My stone Brute does way more damage than my */psi, even with PSW.
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Also control can be detrimental to a brute since that group that he just used it on is now not attacking, and not building his fury.
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this is so far from what actually occurs in a practical setting that it's a shame people believe this. I spam Fault/Tremor and have mudpots slotted with slows. You jump into enough mobs and your fury bar is pegged at 80% within a few moments.
I like the suggestion that people who like playing the melee/control style try a stone/* brute. Aside from the aoe knocks, Seismic Smash will hold a boss in one shot. It's a fun, fun set - and I think people would agree that it's closer to what a dom is supposed to play like than some dom sets.
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Looks like Kineticists have just become the Dominator's best friends.
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Kineticists were the Dominator's best friends already. Kineticists are everybody's best friend, all the time.
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Ok after I've calmed myself down a bit, I'm wondering...
Mez resistance or mez protection?
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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My dark scrapper is starting to get jealous.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
By the numbers, there is a large disparity in power between the dominator primaries with fire and plant at the top, and gravity bringing up the rear.
The design of dominators - melee attacks combined with no mez resistance and low hit points, and a paucity of AoE attacks - makes them unsuitable as team damage dealers, and (depending on primary) with long recharges, they may also be very limited in their control options. Moreover, control does not interact well with the brute's fury ability, and has a generally low margin of utility on teams. It's hard to see how a dominator contributes more to a team than a corruptor, mastermind, or brute will.
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Yes, but Stone also is widely resisted and has a high end cost. It gives up some effectiveness for some "controllerish aspects".
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Brutes don't really have to slot for damage if they do not want to though. So it's possible to slot fault (and tremor) to make them available often and have minimal end cost. Resistance isn't the point. The point was that basically a Stone/* brute can build to essentially have a built-in ice slick. My stone Brute does way more damage than my */psi, even with PSW.
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Also control can be detrimental to a brute since that group that he just used it on is now not attacking, and not building his fury.
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this is so far from what actually occurs in a practical setting that it's a shame people believe this. I spam Fault/Tremor and have mudpots slotted with slows. You jump into enough mobs and your fury bar is pegged at 80% within a few moments.
I like the suggestion that people who like playing the melee/control style try a stone/* brute. Aside from the aoe knocks, Seismic Smash will hold a boss in one shot. It's a fun, fun set - and I think people would agree that it's closer to what a dom is supposed to play like than some dom sets.
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Yea, I forgot to even mention stone/ brute also gets a single target hold (+ high damage) in seismic smash. Nice catch.
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Protection vs. Knockback, Knock Up, Repel, Stun, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Confuse and Fear. Pretty much the whole suite.
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Cataloguing, this means that two out of six Hero Archetypes will have some form of major status protection available archetype-wide, namely Tankers and Scrappers, and three out of five Villains will, namely Brutes, Stalkers and Dominators.
Hmm...
Any chance of putting something like this into Defiance to even up the numbers?