Endurance Discount

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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So tell me. Which changes are floating around on your magical internal test environment that negate the benefit of this? Since you balance and have us test things against alterations that haven't even been coded yet, what's the catch here?

Figured I'd ask, though the duplicitous nature of all the testing we've done since issue 3 makes me assume you won't answer truthfully anyway...

this is a paltry offering that resolves no issues at all that are generated by ED.... we'll still be using more endurance in the end and what about everything else that's getting scre.... well you know. how about cryptic just makes slotting for secondary effects in a majority of the powers actually useful and take away this and ED together? that in the end would achieve what is desired far better.... oh wait what's truely desired is to make gaining XP a lot more slow and increase death rates (who cares about the XP cap being cut in half if i'm still going to die more do to less defense and less ability to kill mobs) to generally slow the damn game down to a worthless crawl... i like seeing my hero progress and not having to spend a year to lvl thanks... whatever happened to the speed of the game being OK with statesman and was the reasoning behing the increase of xp in I5. oh well i suppose marvel is also making a hero based MMO. i suppose i'll just go and start looking into that... thanks for nothing.

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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So a character with 6-slotted Stamina will lose more than 20% of their endurance recovery in exchange for a 13.33% reduction in endurance costs? (And I think Statesman quoted 12%, so perhaps it is even worse.)

(based on numbers found in the guide section since the Devs refuse to provide them

base = 1.67 eps
stamina(6*endrec) = 1.52
total = 3.19

base = 1.67
stamina(2*endrec) = 0.84
total = 2.51

2.51 / 3.19 = .787 = 21.3% reduction

Insufficient. An endurance discount is of no use to Blasters if they're unable to down an enemy before they're killed. I reiterate, a Blaster's defense is the ability to destroy an enemy before his own lack of defenses becomes a liability. You designed the AT this way. With ED, blasters can not max out their damage-dealing capabilities.

If a Blaster were capable of digging in for a long battle, an endurance discount would be great. Less damage, but enough endurance to see the battle through to the end. Problem is, the enemy will destroy the Blaster in that time because he has no defenses.

Likewise, this does little to mitigate the fact that Tankers can't stay in the fight nearly as long as they used to. Tankers more than anyone else can sure use the endurance discount, as many toggles as they have to run, but it's of diminished value since they can't dig in for the long haul like they used to, either. You can't stretch out a fight while you're being shot to pieces.

Your hearts are in the right places, but no. An endurance discount does not make it all better. We are still dead meat.

interesting. With the discount I'm not sure how to spend the slots. anyway, guess I'll have to test it before proclaiming DOOOOOOM

-k

Thanks, Positron, this is helpful.

It really doesn't change the core ED problem of "I've got these extra slots....and not much to do with them" problem, though.

This combined with the new ability to free up two slots for Recharge in most powers (duplicating the current effect of Hasten) pretty much balances Attack power sets.

We are now (forcibly) free from "needing" Hasten and/or Stamina. I don't fully understand how these powers were a problem, but since I can now compensate for their loss, it's a non-issue. Good solution.

However, neither Endurance Reductions nor "extra slots" for Recharge Reductions has any positive effect on the following sets:

Empathy
Sonic Resonance
Force Field
Super Reflexes
Regeneration
Invulnerability
Stone Armor
Ice Armor
Firey Aura

I consider that to be a problem.

EDIT: I just had another idea. Why can't a Knockback % Chance / Stun % Chance / Damage-Over-Time % Chance Enhancements be created?

Mobs already have resistances to status protections, so I don't believe that creating new enhancement types to change the Chance of a secondary effect, rather than the Duration, will break anything.

[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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Again I ask very simply, why?

[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Health, RPD, Fast Healing, Tough Hide, etc. get an Endurance reduction? Awesome!

Oh, wait....

I wanted to post this in hopes that one of the devs might think about it. Before I do, I want to explain that there are THREE CoH accounts active in my household at this moment. Me and my partner share one. My roommate has one, and his girlfriend has one. Everyone pretty much has heroes on the otheres accounts. This was done so that all of us could play with any of the others, at any time, and always know that if for some reason they couldn't find a group, they'd still have someone to play with. Two of us would be considered "power gamers." We invest several hours per day on our characters. Two of us are "casual games." We may spend just a few hours a week playing them when we have time. And this is a happy household. So, that means that we are spending $538.00 per year for happiness and quality time with one another. (For you number crunchers: $14.95 fee per month x 3 accounts x 12 months in the year.) Please don't get into the semantics of "quality time" with me. This is our thing. We enjoy it. Don't knock it.

Now, having that understanding is this. Two of us were VERY EXCITED about Issue 4. We tried to explain the concept of PvP to the other two. Finally, we had to present this to them: "Look, the X-Men had the Danger Room. This could kinda be like that, but instead of fighting Shi'ar holograms, you get to fight other live players." At that moment, you could tell they understood. And things were great again. But alas, no one in the arenas. EVER. So it became just this: A Danger Room in every city zone that no one was using unless it was someone playing against a random friend. And that was "expaned content."

A couple of months pass by, and we find out about Issue 5. We tell them. "It's gonna be awesome! Look at the new zone! See these new powers! You're gonna love it!" Then it comes around to test, and we find out that our characters are going to be 1/2 as effective and cool as they once were. I explained it to my partner this way: "Ok. Your controller for example. Power X used to last for 60 seconds and take 60 seconds to come back up. With Issue 5, it's only going to last for 30 seconds, but take 120 to come back up for you to use, but you'll do double the damage." To which his response was: "But I'm an ICE CONTROLLER! I don't *DO* damage." I know, I know. But you get new powers and a new zone and new events. His response was "that doesn't sound very much like a superhero to me." I know. *sigh*

Now, CoV is announced. He's actually excited because he's always playing the anti-hero anyways, and can now play a full fledged villain. But now, now he can become a SUPER VILLAIN!!!! So we go out and get our preorder. The sales clerk says "and by preordering, you get a guaranteed beta slot!" He's SOOOOOOOOOO excited. I'm happy because he's excited. So we get home, tear open the package, load the disc, register, etc. Then he finds out! Ooops. The guy at the store wasn't completely right. Bad on him. We have to wait for a beta spot invite. *sigh* You can tell he's disappointed. Santa came and basically delived an empty box with wrapping paper on it. His puppy was kicked. His ice cream cone melted before he could eat it. You get the picture.

Now, we find out the "Enhancement Diversitification" and "Endurance Discount." Again we have to explain this. "Remember the free respect they gave you at I5. Remember the 4 hours I spent helping you with your character. And all the influence we spent to get you balanced out after the nerf? Well, it was a waste of our time. (Argument starts. Argument finishes.) I explain to him how he's going to have to reshuffle all his enhancements AGAIN. Sorry, I know you're a squishy controller, but Statesman says that your endurance comes back too fast because of stamina. Oh, you didn't care! You were talking about your health regeneration!!! Sorry. Statesman thinks you're just not squishy enough, so now instead of getting 2 health points back every second, you're gonna get back about 1.25." I know you die all the time because the tankers got nerfed (and are getting nerfed again) but you're just gonna have to deal with it." Individuality is a joke. Prepare for cookie cutter heroes.

To which he replied: "Screw Statesman. I pay for the damn game! Not him! And why is he doing this? I'm tired of hearing about how the game isn't what he wants it to be! It's not what I want it to be anymore! Cancel the account!"

Insert a few days now of trying to convince him that everything will be ok (and myself as well.)

Someone made a post in the "ED" thread about the emotional effect this game has on it's players. I love my defender. According to some random NPC in PI, I've spent 488 hours on him. I feel like it's all a wash. My partner is mad and doesn't want to play anymore. All that quality time has been turned into a joke. Feeling are hurt across the game. Not just mine. Not just his. Hundreds of thousands of players have lost faith in the developers and the "Creative Director." (So much for any sense of creativity. Ask the devs at Asheron's Call 2 how that's going and what they're going to do for work.)

And to think...this all started because one friend told my roommate about the game and we ended up with 3 accounts here. Ironic I think.

PS. sorry about the long post.

Just curious, how does this endurance reduction compare to how it is now with stamina? Does it give you an equivalent amount of enduance over X length of time with Stamina six slotted (or slotted less because of the reduction in effectivness) compared to how Stamina works on Live now?

Basically, numbers wise, does this make up for the reduction in effectivness stamina will have? Or is endurance going to be harder to manage?

This just seems odd. Is this just being done to fix the fact that stamina 6 slotted will be worse? Why make it worse with ED, then turn around and make it better unless you are focusing on that single power? If you are focusing on that single power, why not focus on all single enhancable powers? It just seem to me like you guys are WAY overthinking things here and a complete redesign / simplification is needed in order to achieve what you seemingly want which is less powerful powers.

Ok i have been sitting back now looking over the ED situation, and thinking about how this REDUCED END cost per power will work, and well IT DOESNT. The only way to make up for nerfing of enhancements would something like a 50% cut to END cost of all powers, OR a 25-50%increase base END regen of Stamina. This company refuses to BUFF up anything any more, its all about reducing, reducing, reducing, nerf, nerf, nerf. Am i a DOOM sayer, i think not, i try to come at each change with an open mind, after issue 5 made my invul tank into TISSUE PAPAER, i reworked him, he survives, but is little more then a shiney meat shield.
The End Discount at 13.33% is nothing, my fire tank runs with anywhere from 7-10 toggles going depending on the situation, even with current STAMINA, conserve, and consume, i still run into END issues. I plan to make a post on the Enhancement Diversifaction thread as well, so i wont get into those thoughts yet. I am losing faith in this game and the people who run it, i doubt my 30 dollars a month will really be missed, but oh well, it was fun for a year.

Justice Valkyre 50 F/F tanker
Voices Calling 50 ill/rad troler
and many more 50's

[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a farce. A devices blaster looking at his slotting sees a line of 5 - 6 damage enhancements in each of his attack powers. To take this away and offer an endurance reduction in return beggars belief.

Why would you gratuitously nerf free will in slotting?

The Endurance Reduction sounds nice at first but that won't really solve the problem with the Stamina nerf.

It's the DOWNTIME that Stamina reduces. The End Redux may let us punch, blast, heal, buff, etc a few times more but once our endurance bar is drained, we'll sit there gasping for breath while we wait for that blue bar to build back up. And I know there will be times that endurance will run out in the middle of a fight, which is probably why the debt cap got halved.

Is this another attempt to try to get people to invite defenders into teams? I can see the "r u hpnend healer?" requests already. Or is it another way to slow leveling speed? Frequent resting = slower XP gain = longer subscribers.

You're in danger of nerfing the fast-paced gameplay itself. Please increase base endurance regeneration instead AND decrease recharge time across the board. Better yet, don't implement Enhancement Diversification or somehow leave Stamina and Hasten out of the ED.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what good a 13.3% end cost reduction is going to do when the effectiveness of my armors, attacks, and stamina have been decreased by around 33% from the enhancement nerfs.

As it was, I5 made my tank much more dependent on quickly dispatching enemies before they could dispatch me. Now, I'm going to have even further reduced defenses, meaning I need to arrest enemies even more quickly, but my attacks are weaker. So, I now have to spend more time, attacks, and endurance to arrest a villain, and my endurance recovery and defenses are nerfed to boot.

How does a 13.3% endurance cost buff help me again?

whoopy end reduction so my ice tanks -end debuff to self shields can stay on longer.

Are you going to pay me back the inf you are costing me to replace my slotting to your new system?

Are you going to provide my main some way, other then deleting, to "Diversify" HO's to my other characters since I have alot of them.

and last are you going to rename defense to false hope anytime soon?

[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

So explain to me how a 13.33% reduction in endurance cost is going to help me with Resist Physical Damage?
Hmm?
Do you have a good explaination for that one? Or are you going to make auto powers start costing endurance too?

You & the Cryptic crew seem to like ED while a good portion of your player base does not. Take this sugar coating & shove it.

I don't want to play your artificially crippled version of the game.

Like putting a band aid on a broken leg. You havent taken into mind the limitations on abilities Positron. Tankers will have bad resistance therefore die alot. Blasters can't do enough damage therefore die alot. Scrappers are the same. Defenders can't heal as good as they did so they can't save people as much as before and can't buff as well. Controllers can't hold well at all now and in the end the whole team gets party wiped by a even con mob that should've been easy to deal with. In short the reduction in endurance cost fixes nothing...you simply slapped something in to save what little credibility the development team has left due to this large scale change.

When vigilance was introduced it was often argued that when the team is in trouble defenders need faster recharges or more effective buff/debuff/heals - that endurance would rarely be the factor that decided whether the team wiped or not.

That fell on deaf ears.

So I guess it's a waste of time to suggest that an endurance reduction won't counteract the overall weakening every other aspect of our powers receive from "diversification".

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...

So I guess it's a waste of time to suggest that an endurance reduction won't counteract the overall weakening every other aspect of our powers receive from "diversification".

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I'm guessing you're right, mostly because I figure weakening everybody (some more than others) is the goal.

This is just a bone to distract us.

We take away 2 SO from you, but we give you a free DO instead to compensate.

*applause*

/sarcasm off

Something like that you don't just FORGET to put in along with one of the biggest nerfs to hit this game. It sounds more to me like this was put in there to soften all the negative feedback.

One thing to consider is how in the world this ED will help all of those powers that may have multiple enh possibilites, but with the need for only one like the fire shields or an emp defenders buffs like AB, RA, ETC.

Timing was just straight up way off for ED and it is apparent by the 'oops forget to tell ya bout the reduced endurance cost'. You can't kick me in the stomach, (issue 5) invite me to dinner, then kick me in the stomach when I walk thru the door. It just doesn't work like that.

I'm sorry but that won't cut it with the client base upset by this already. They are too smart to fall for that.

[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could make that a 50% endurance reduction and it wouldnt excuse the obscenity that is ED.

And just out of curiosity why would you even bother to reduce end costs? what the heck else will I used my forced-slotting changes for now?

I think I will take the 100% endurance reduction cost and simply not renew.

hmmm how bout you give us that and keep your damn nerf and that way we wont all need to get stamina....but wait that would be fixing something...