13.33 endurance / 0.43 eps = 31 seconds. So unless you somehow were able to use up your entire energy bar in 31 seconds, the global end reduction does not make up for the loss of those last 3 stamina slots
You should not expect the game to make up for something you can still do. The slots were not lost, you moved them. You simply want the total stamina bonus AND 3 bonus slots.
I've stated before and I'll state it again: The game never required you to take Stamina. It does expect you to spend at least part of your character toward endurance management. Stamina was the easy way out.
The only people that gained anything from this were the people who never had stamina to begin with.
Or people who had stamina but not six slotted.
Or people who had an endurance recovery power. Particularly one that is used on teammates.
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You should not expect the game to make up for something you can still do.
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I don't. For the sake of simplicity I left those last 3 slots off because 15% of .41 is almost ignorable but since you asked...
Those last 3 slots? Now under and ED'ed system equate to 0.0615 eps. So *grumble* I'll edit my previous comment to reflect a 6 slotted stamina:
Base Endurance recovery for Stamina is 0.41 eps. 6 slotted it was 1.23 eps. 6 slotted under ED it is now 0.861 eps. That amounts to a net loss of 0.369 eps.
13.33 endurance / 0.369 eps = 36 seconds. So unless you somehow were able to use up your entire energy bar in 36 seconds, the global end reduction does not make up for the loss of those last 3 stamina slots
Woo 5 more seconds! I have yet to meet a character that can go from F to E in 35 seconds short of using a Nuke.
But I'm ok with the way things are now... or moreso, I've learned to adapt to this change. I still never slot endreduxes in my attacks (against my religion), and I still grab Stamina (3 slotted) on almost every character. I was just suggesting that all those people that were shouting "Now I don't need to take stamina at all because the end redux was SOOOOOO big!" look closer at what they had and what they have now. 
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But I'm ok with the way things are now... or moreso, I've learned to adapt to this change. I still never slot endreduxes in my attacks (against my religion), and I still grab Stamina (3 slotted) on almost every character. I was just suggesting that all those people that were shouting "Now I don't need to take stamina at all because the end redux was SOOOOOO big!" look closer at what they had and what they have now.
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I think you miss the entire point of the End reduction that came with ED...
It was not there to REPLACE Stamina.... Stamina still exists and is still a good (albiet not AS good) power.
but it is not now NEEDED if you manage your endurance otherwise and DIVERSIFY your ENHANCEMENTS in a power (with end redux enh)....
I still have Characters with Stamina (three slotted) as well.. but they are my 'toggle heavy' characters... the 'click' power characters do better without it and they don't NEED it (like they used to).
Just my $.02
-D
"I burn my candle at both ends, it will not last the night. But Ahhh my friends and Ohh my foes it makes a lovely light!"
What a lot of people are missing is why stamina really was considered necessary. It wasn't as much because people wanted to last in fights more, else slotting endurance reductions would have sufficed. Stamina is still pretty necessary for a lot of my characters (especially the toggle-heavy tanks, brutes, and scrappers) because of the HUGE impact it has on reducing downtime.
There are many different ways for any given character to reduce the endurance cost of their powers and keep the blue bar from emptying as fast. Outside of stamina, very few powersets offer any way of reducing the time it takes to go from empty to full. If they boosted base endurance recovery by 15-20% and reduced stamina by an appropriate amount to insure that characters with 3-slotted stamina wouldn't notice a difference, then you'd see fewer people taking stamina. Without narrowing that gap by moving both sides closer together, stamina remains a great power that is almost universally useful.
It does seem like my attacks are causing me to run out of endurance quicker than I used to. I've got Stamina.
This helps some charcters with the option to raise damage dealt or increase recharge time or buffs and debuffs. But what good is endurance when your health is all gone due to the lack of defense resistance or defense entirely. The option to solo on a higher setting than heroic is slowly disappearing. Good luck all
Another update:
Inv/em tank at 25 now, stamina with one slot, all 3 toggles running and getting a couple more soon. While i had slight end issues in the 18-22 game on this tank, i have no real issues to speak of now, so this is a good balance point.
Ill/ff countroller has stamina now, no end issues to speak of. the bar moves up and down, but with the rest recharge reduction, insp drop rate and spacing between fights, no issues. Grav/rad controller also nearing stamina. she's a bit more of a challange to manage with her debuffs, but once i get stamina i don't think this will be an issue. Blaster is stagnating, he's got end issues. To keep his dps up, i would need maxed out stamina. We all know blasters are end hogs, nothing new here.
My conclusions: Stamina is still very beneficial. The global end redux was right on the money. Blasters need help on a set by set bases, possibly slight end reductions in their powers.
Otherwise, i think the global reduction was well planned, and works well.
Semper_fi,
What toggles are you using and how often are they on? Before ED and the Stamina 6 slotted I never had a problem with End on my 32 Inv/EM Tank. I ran with all my toggles on at all times (silly) and never worried. I was mostly diversified in my slots before.
Now, Stamina is 3 slotted I'm still diversified and my end is mostly gone with a 3 person mob. My tank is level 36 and I run with Manuevers, TI, UNY and In at all times w a End Red in each. It looks like I'll need to add more End reducers to my toggles to help some of the endurance bleeding.
Perse
My level 50 Ice / Storm Troller has not been redesigned after DE. Even with the endurance reduction and my stamina still slotted with all 6 slots, I am having issues keeping up my attacks as I did Pre-DE. I know I can add a couple of End. Reducers in my powers and break up the extra 3 slots in Stamina, and the extra 3 in hasten, but I just don't see how that is going to help in the long run. I have attempted to copy over to the test server, but as of yet, I am just playing around in the CoV and just not interested in messing with it yet. But, even with the DE and the reduction in Endurance cost, wouldn't the 6 slotted stamina still have a bit better effect than it is, but again, I will have to just play with it and see how it works.
Demonfest - 50 - Demon / Thermal Mastermind
Covered Shadow - 50 - Dark Melee / Shield Scrapper
Ive noticed this net-loss on all my toons, even ones i load chock full of endruance reductions. A much fairer number of end discount compared to how much less endurance we have now would be a 20% reduction as opposed to the 13.3% it is now.
For lots of my builds it would still result in less endurance than i had Pre ED, but it would be a more reasonably dealt with.
Plasmic's Guide to Sonic/Mental
Plasmic's Guide to Regeneration
Plasmic Fire - 50 Fire/Rad Victory Server
You are just wasting those 3 slots 6 slotting stamina.
And anyone that thinks having 3 slot stamina and the global end bonus is the same as pre-ED 6 slot stamina is crazy.
I have a 50 fire/en tank. He can't even run his toggles and attack with his whole attack chain without running out of end now. Nor can he tank any damage whatsoever because all of his shields have only 3 dmg resists in them. ED totally ruined tanks and any def AT's in my opinion.
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Semper_fi,
What toggles are you using and how often are they on? Before ED and the Stamina 6 slotted I never had a problem with End on my 32 Inv/EM Tank. I ran with all my toggles on at all times (silly) and never worried. I was mostly diversified in my slots before.
Now, Stamina is 3 slotted I'm still diversified and my end is mostly gone with a 3 person mob. My tank is level 36 and I run with Manuevers, TI, UNY and In at all times w a End Red in each. It looks like I'll need to add more End reducers to my toggles to help some of the endurance bleeding.
Perse
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An update:
He's lvl 33 now, 34 soon. Haven't played much lately, due to work. The toggles i run so far are: temp inv, UY, and invinc. I have stamina 3 slot, and 1 end redux in each power. I have 4 attacks: barrage, ene punch, bonesmasher, and whirling hands. Of all my attacks only whirling hands has an end redux in it. I spam taunt as often as it's up, and somtimes forget to turn of combat jumping so run 4 toggles half the time. I don't run out of end, rarely go below half, and only have to stop fighting between spawns to wait for the group to recover. If i didn't have to wait for them, i wouldn't have to stop, he's basically a steamroller: slow but irresistable and deadly. I don't plan on taking build up, or ene transfer (until the 40's), though i will take total focus at 38. I use aid self when neded. No end problems.
Claws/SR scrapper and 3 slot stamina in the high 20's. I skipped spin, as i don't think the damage/end usage is balanced. She never runs out of end. Runs both FF and FS, and perma PB. Shell have tough eventually and her 3rd toggle.
ILL/FF controller high 20's 30 soon, and on her way to phantasm very fast. She runs disp bubble and superior invis always. Half the time she's hovering as well, and that has 3 flight speed in it, no end redux. Sup invis has 3 end redux in it, and disp bubble has 2. she spams both other team bubbles every fight so they're always up perm on team members. she spams decieve, blind and spec terror as soon as they cycle. Spec terror is basically perm, blind can hold multiple +1-2 targets overlapped, and decieve is the same. She drops phant army when it cycles. No end issues post stamina, though she slots heavily in invis and disp bubble for end redux. tactics is next selected in 1 level, and will have 2 end redux in it.
Stone tank in the teens, he runs 1-2 toggles. he hurts for end dramatically, but i knew this would be the case. He'll be fine in the 32+ game i'm sure, with stamina, and teleport: teleport having 3 end redux.
Gravity controller has been stalled due to work, haven't had a chance to dust that toon off much.
Blaster is doing alright but has been gathering a bit of dust also (work, curse you! ), he has some end issues, but i spam attacks non stop, and stamina isn't slotted at all (curse you influence!!), he's as he should be.
All in all, the global reduction is really on the money for stamina and ED for these builds. I'm reletively sure NOW that i could make any build basically min/maxed with no end issues. Even dark armour, as i run an SR scrapper with 2-3 toggles now, and end doesn't budge most of the time, so when SR scrap gets more, things will STILL be fine.
No one is saying the global end reduction is an exact compensation for the Ed hit to stamina. What i KNOW from play testing is that it's very accurate, and helps a great deal.
Also, rest seems to recover faster than i even need it at low levels. Conceptually this is really cool. Even in the comics heroes take a moment to catch a breath. Hell, i do it at the gym, between sets, i stop for a minute or two to catch a breather.
Ps. Yes i have about 4 female toons, for Concept reasons. My other 4 are male. My gf would kill me if I deleted the two that i created that look like her. She's fond of them.
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You are just wasting those 3 slots 6 slotting stamina.
And anyone that thinks having 3 slot stamina and the global end bonus is the same as pre-ED 6 slot stamina is crazy.
I have a 50 fire/en tank. He can't even run his toggles and attack with his whole attack chain without running out of end now. Nor can he tank any damage whatsoever because all of his shields have only 3 dmg resists in them. ED totally ruined tanks and any def AT's in my opinion.
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Glad that's your opinion. My Invuln tank can handle 17 +3 foes no sweat. even non smashing leathal ones, as aid self is a great tool. Maybe your play style needs some altering?
Sure tanks aren't "i win" buttons any longer, and God Mode is gone now, but tanks still beat down the game in terms of "[censored]? you think you can hurt THIS?!" idea.
My tank does just fine, and my SG mates never need a defender or controller if i'm there.
*Slips on long legged boots*
Something smells like a load....
That said...
I still 6 slot my Stamina. I hate to say it since I have never like ED because I think that Diversification is a misnomer here. People no longer have a choice of how to slot their characters without paying a penalty of sorts. NOW we get to make our characters with pre-planned limitations.
... sorry, can't help myself. Off track. Ahem. As I was saying. I six slot my Stamina still and even though the percentage of increase is small because if ED, I can tell the difference between 5 and 6 slots. IMO This has not eliminated the need to take Stamina, even with End Red. Enhancements in every power. Not if you like to stay on the run in missions like I do. Before ED I really didn't have the constant "stop's" that I have now after I run out of CaB's.
New thread time... I hate this topic... it upsets me greatly. 
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*Slips on long legged boots*
Something smells like a load....
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All very true, go test it. Thank you.
All of this is reproducable. All my end effecting stats are there. go test it?
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Glad that's your opinion. My Invuln tank can handle 17 +3 foes no sweat. even non smashing leathal ones, as aid self is a great tool. Maybe your play style needs some altering?
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Go hawk your wares elsewhere snake oil peddler!
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Glad that's your opinion. My Invuln tank can handle 17 +3 foes no sweat. even non smashing leathal ones, as aid self is a great tool. Maybe your play style needs some altering?
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Go hawk your wares elsewhere snake oil peddler!
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Sigh. He's not peddling anything, he's just playing a /Regen Tank. It really doesn't matter what his non-stone power set even is: Dull Pain + Health +Aid Self = Most of the capabilities of /Regen.
And, of course, as long as your +Defense powers and +Resist powers are good for something (doesn't need to be much), a high healing rate solves most problems.
Of course, there are those Tanks that choose not to take the Medicine pool.
Their performance is somewhat less...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Sigh. He's not peddling anything, he's just playing a /Regen Tank. It really doesn't matter what his non-stone power set even is: Dull Pain + Health +Aid Self = Most of the capabilities of /Regen.
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You forgot Hasten. Faster healing for a better you.
yeah, I've had it out with Semper Fi before. He, like Futurias, is a "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts" type.
Fact: Tanks died in I4. Even inv/ tanks. And Fire tanks.
Fact: Tanks had their damage cut prior to I5.
Fact: Tanks had damres and def power slashed hardcore in I5.
Fact: Tanks had damres and def power slashed hardcore AGAIN with ED.
Fact: Tanks are no longer capable of God mode.
Fact: Tanks are no longer capable of tank mode.
Fact: Tanks + defenders are good combination.
Fact: Two defenders is even better.
Conclusion: Tanks need to be balanced back up. The removal of the global def/damres nerfs of I5 is a good start.
Addendum: This is not even in dispute anymore. The only questions are how, and how much, and how soon.
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Sigh. He's not peddling anything, he's just playing a /Regen Tank. It really doesn't matter what his non-stone power set even is: Dull Pain + Health +Aid Self = Most of the capabilities of /Regen.
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You forgot Hasten. Faster healing for a better you.
yeah, I've had it out with Semper Fi before. He, like Futurias, is a "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts" type.
Fact: Tanks died in I4. Even inv/ tanks. And Fire tanks.
Not fact- your opinion. My tank is doing okay. Definetly NOT dead
Fact: Tanks are no longer capable of tank mode.
Not fact- your opinion. Who is capable of tank mode without buffs and stuff, other than a tank?
Fact: Tanks + defenders are good combination.
Not fact- your opinion. But I sure wouldn't say "no" to either of them or both of them.
Fact: Two defenders is even better.
Not fact- your opinion. See above.
Conclusion: Tanks need to be balanced back up. The removal of the global def/damres nerfs of I5 is a good start.
Now- THATS A FACT!!
Addendum: This is not even in dispute anymore. The only questions are how, and how much, and how soon.
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Still disputing it- still playing my tank, still enjoying it.
[color=red] But I respect your opinions and your facts. Agree to disagree, and whatnot.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
If in fact you are correct Sonburst and everyone else is wrong, why then are there SO FEW tanks around. Why are tanks getting totally owned in PVP by everything.
The fact is with the current slotting allowances for tanks they are about 50% of what they used to be. I'm not saying that they weren't overpowered, they were, but the trend in this game is to nerf ATs into oblivion. They could have cut their abilites by 25% or so NOT 50%.
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Fact: Tanks died in I4. Even inv/ tanks. And Fire tanks.
Not fact- your opinion. My tank is doing okay. Definetly NOT dead
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Learn to read, THEN try writing. I said "tanks died in I4 " This refers to the fact that, at no level at the HEIGHT of their power, were tanks "unbeatable". I remember being chased around the arena by a rad/rad defender when I was in my PRIME. Get it now? NOT "ALL TANKS ARE DEAD, NO ONE CAN POSSIBLY PLAY THEM"...tanks. could. die. in. I4.
Sheesh.
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Fact: Tanks are no longer capable of tank mode.
Not fact- your opinion. Who is capable of tank mode without buffs and stuff, other than a tank?
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No one. That doesn't mean tanks are, either. A tank should be able to tank for an 8-man team, taking the aggro, and the damage, from a full spawn while his teammates do whatever it is that squishies do during that time. If a second group gets aggroed, a tank should be able to tank for them, as well, with danger.
Right now, the ONLY way a tank is going to be able to do an 8-man (at least for inv/, ice/ and the like...not necessarily stone/) on Invincible is if there is a defender to buff him. To even TRY to get all the aggro is difficult with the aggro caps, and to succeed is suicide. This isn't to say someone is better. Just that the best aren't good enough.
Why are you having such trouble reading and understanding what I'm writing?
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Fact: Tanks + defenders are good combination.
Not fact- your opinion. But I sure wouldn't say "no" to either of them or both of them.
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??? It IS a fact. Defenders, whether they buff the tank, shield the tank, heal the tank, or debuff the incoming damage, make a GREAT support unit for a tank, or a brute. Have you ever been in a team with two tanks and two defenders? The defenders parse up the tanks between them like sailors picking girls at a bar on a one-night liberty.
Tanks and defenders make a good combination. This IS a fact. And it's a little different than in I4, where a defender was usually MOOT for a well-built tank. It's one of the reasons why the nerfs were "needed", and I'm just saying "mission accomplished". This is to show that while SOME rollbacks need to happen, SOME degree of the plan was successful, and ALL probably shouldn't be undone.
Are you drunk, or something?
I'm glad you agree to disagree with me, but not sure what part you're disagreeing with I actually said, and what part is your own fevered imagination.
Tanks overnerfed.
Buff tanks.
The end.
He, he... Not really to contribute anything but I quit CoH in like Issue 3 and just came back a week ago, so I have certain memories of the former state of affairs. Tanks (invulns in particular) were broken and everyone knew it. It was _bad_.
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*Slips on long legged boots*
Something smells like a load....
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All very true, go test it. Thank you.
All of this is reproducable. All my end effecting stats are there. go test it?
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Sempre_Fi,
What is your mission level set to for your Tank?
Thanks.
Perse
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Why are tanks getting totally owned in PVP by everything.
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Speak for yourself. Mini Mistress Foley kicks villain hiney in PvP!
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
The way I see it is that a 13.3% reduction in endurance cost means that if you blew your entire endurance bar you only saved 13.3 endurance.
Base Endurance recovery for Stamina is 0.41 eps. 6 slotted it was 1.23 eps. 3 slotted under ED it is now 0.80 eps. That amounts to a net loss of 0.43 eps.
13.33 endurance / 0.43 eps = 31 seconds. So unless you somehow were able to use up your entire energy bar in 31 seconds, the global end reduction does not make up for the loss of those last 3 stamina slots
The only people that gained anything from this were the people who never had stamina to begin with.