Thanks, you totally screwed my favorite toon an illusion controller. First you take away my ability to have multiple phantasms so I compensated with more damage. Now you take that away with the ed discount which should have been considered and implemented BEFORE COH was even released not a year and a half later. People have invested countless hours in their toons only to have some STUPID dev totally screw it up. If I had known this change was coming I never would have pre-ordered COV because rest assured they'll screw that up too. Hopefully enough people will cancel their accounts because of this stupidity and they'll fire the devs sorry [censored]. 
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Seems to me that the DEV's idea of "diversification" is that everybody will 3-slot damage, 2-slot end, and 1-slot attack rate on their damage powers. Sounds real diverse to me.....
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Why? I much prefer 3-slot damage, 1-slot accuracy, 2-slot attack rate.
Or maybe 3-slot accuracy, 3-slot damage rate for assassin's strike. Or maybe 2-slot damage, 1-slot accuracy, 3-slot range for sniper powers.
Seems like there's a lot of potential diversity.
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Seems to me that the DEV's idea of "diversification" is that everybody will 3-slot damage, 2-slot end, and 1-slot attack rate on their damage powers. Sounds real diverse to me.....
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Why? I much prefer 3-slot damage, 1-slot accuracy, 2-slot attack rate.
Or maybe 3-slot accuracy, 3-slot damage rate for assassin's strike. Or maybe 2-slot damage, 1-slot accuracy, 3-slot range for sniper powers.
Seems like there's a lot of potential diversity.
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They didnt add that diversity, it was always there. What they did is made certain ways undesirable to slot and in my book thats less devirse.
Nothing kept you from slotting the way you gave examples for, before ED came out. Please dont make it sound like we got something out of ED, that we didnt already have.
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the discount amounts to 1-4 points per attack, usually 2 points. so with an attack chain 4 long you can save approximatly 8 endurance.
assume for arguement that chain takes 10 seconds to execute.
8 endurance every 10 seconds is 24 end/ minute or .4 endurance a second which is the same recovery youd get with an additonal 3 slots in stamina.
the endurance that you are no longer recovering you are also no longer using. Also keep in mind rest hasa reduced recharge time so you can use it more often to reduce any additonal down time you might have ( and the nerf to stamina does effect your downtime, but not your combat effectivness )
the devs actually handled stamina and ED pretty well. The real failure they had is all the defensive powers that got this 1/3 enhancment nerf and didn get anything to compensate.
So if you want to complain about enhancement diversification, complain about scrapper/tank defenses becuase they actually got nerfed whereas our endurance did not.
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This would be so true if it was true. Usually 2 points? What attacks are you using? Mine are usually 4+ per attack not 2. Unlessy you're using brawl. I even have attacks that do up to 10 or more! I cans use an attack, look at my end bar and visually see it drop by 1/10 or something. So I think you need to double your figures which would put us at .4 endurance a second less than what we were at before at a minimum.
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You know perhaps slotting an endurance in each attack might help. Heck i even do that with my kat/regen. 3 slotted QR and stamina and i still have 1 end redu in each attack.
for my non regen characters i usually run 3 slotted stamina and 1-2 end redu in attacks. I dont seem to have any endurance problems.
the point of my previous posts however is the fact that while you are attacking you are using less endurance than you used to( toggles may be an exception i dont know). You also arent regenerating that endurance either and if toggles didnt get a discount then the discrepancy might be there.
Also i use rest maybe once every three battles or so ( while solo and fighitng +1 or +2 mobs in groups of 3-5 with my invul/ss).
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Lol you're telling people to use rest but you went and TOOK STAMINA AND SLOTTED YOUR ATTACKS WITH END REDUCTION. Before ED, you didn't need to slot end redux in your attacks. Just take stamina. Now you at least need to do both. That's why YOU don't have endurance problems. Try not taking stamina and see how you do.
This discount is not enough for anyone who has to run toggles esp those who need toggles to survive!
Thanks for the Universal Endurance Reduction Training Enhancement.
/em rolls eyes
I still only play this game because people look to me and ask me questions so they can go and have fun playing this game. I would rather 20-30 people enjoy this game, not knowing what is missing than show them my old numbers and have them quit. Where has issue 3 gone? I dont remember hearing people complaining about [censored]. I just miss having fun, I realy do. I get payed to work, struggle, crunch massive ammounts of numbers and get pissed off when things do not work as intended. I dont get payed enough to respec 17 hero's, juggle 93 HO's and still cant make them vaible in PVE and forget PvP. Hold on...... I pay you, to get these same issues I get at work.
In the long run 13.3% doesnt do anything to make the game more fun or help anyone. If you realy think it helps or makes you that much better or even a little you can just go on thinking that.
Whoooo.... end redux on all powers..... whooooooo
For one, I am doing way less damage than I should as a blaster.... every other AT can out damage me on some attacks. Second, I have even worse end problems than before. Could it be the ED effect on stamina? Maybe... or maybe they didn't reduce the costs. But I HAVE to team with someone with RA or AB or something that buff end regen... or I can't do anything, even with toggles off.
I was hoping the devs would have smartened up by now and fixed ED to not SUCK [censored]! But apparently they don't listen. They would rather neglect the complaints of most of the players, and just keep prasing how they reduced end cost... and lowered the debt cap. Wow... that's funny... they knew we'd be dying so much more, they were nice enough to lower the cap on debt.
And here we have the "Online Gamer" Take a look folks, you're really in for a treat. See how the Gamer gets his new treat? He's so excited! Now watch as he opens it up and tosses everything around, good, that's going to catch on fire and burn him in a minute. Now he's really into the game, he's so happy, everything's fine, wait wait, oh yes.. listen to the squeals. Oh he's in agony! Watch the rubble flying around! Listen to the curses! Oh my, oh yes, I love my job. Ha ha! And he's PAYING me to do this to him! I tell you, ranks right up there with the freaks!
"This Excerpt brought to you by How to be an MMO Exec"
Now lemme alone, i wanna go back to gaming.
Mu.
Dai-San: "You Not true Mu, you fake Mu. Me want Mu Mu, not you Mu." ~in response to I7
Dai-San: "You point, me smash." Brutz rulz 101
Sig Truncated
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ED makes the game far easier to balance for everyone. ED is also the equivalent of having stat caps in other MMORPG.
Pre-ED would be like being able to max out your stats with your only limit being the gear that you could find. Post ED would be the implementation of a stat cap.
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But the cap would make sense if it took work to reach it and one could say, almost bragingly, "I got my warrior with capped strength, awesome!" as opposed to having a HARD CAP on what you can and can't do with the basic things EVERYONE has access to.
"It's your money or your life madam. Oh wait! Today's Thursday! It's both."
The Endurance Discount helps, it does. I appreciate it. Still, even with a diverse use of Endurance Reducing Enhancements I cannot run my toggles without going into an Endurance deficit.
Perhaps the problem isn't so much that Endurance costs are too high, but that there aren't enough powers without endurance costs. Buying up to Stamina cuts Endurance costs in more than 1 way - you regain Endurance faster, yes, but in addition you have also purchased three powers that do not require Endurance at all. If you didn't purchase the Fitness powerset, you would have three more Endurance-draining powers; once you have these new powers, then Stamina looks so much better. I believe that a balanced solution would be to offer more Endurance-free powers, or to remove altogether the Endurance cost of other Pool set powers (Tough and Weave, for example).
Overall, my position is still the same: I do not feel like I should be forced to purchase a particular powerset. And I believe 90% of the City of Hero veterens will claim that Stamina is a must for a successful and enjoyable high-level character. My character already has a power that recharges endurance, why do I feel like I need to have another, and spend 3 powers to get it? Give me more options!
CoH
Cathodian (50 Rad/Rad)
Archanix (50 Ill/FF)
Dr. Deadface (Current: 40 Rad/MM)
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Overall, my position is still the same: I do not feel like I should be forced to purchase a particular powerset. And I believe 90% of the City of Hero veterens will claim that Stamina is a must for a successful and enjoyable high-level character.
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Very accurate. Stamina is not any less necessary. It is still required for the vast majority of builds.
I have to disagree with your first sentence though. The Endurance discount does NOT help. Since we can only 3 slot Stamina now, it doesn't even let us break even to where we were before. The Endurance discount needs to be something like 50% instead of a measly 13% in order to actually mean anything. If it were that much, then maybe it truly would make Stamina less necessary. I'm glad the discount is there, don't get me wrong; we'll take what we can get after the hack-job that was ED. But it doesn't go far enough.
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
"Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man."
- Thomas Jefferson
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Stamina is not any less necessary. It is still required for the vast majority of builds.
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It is only "necessary" if you wish to play a certain way. It is much less "necessary" than it was before. You see it as such because you wish to play that way. The game only assumes that you will spend at least part of your character on endurance management. Most choose stamina because it is the easy way out. Personally I also happen to like the perks offered by Swift, Hurdle and Health and so Stamina is absolutely no loss to me.
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Since we can only 3 slot Stamina now, it doesn't even let us break even to where we were before.
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FYI you can still six slot stamina.
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Since we can only 3 slot Stamina now, it doesn't even let us break even to where we were before.
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FYI you can still six slot stamina.
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You can six slot it, but if someone thinks that it will actually help they might need a slapping to wake them up.
I think stamina is pretty much required in many builds... not all, because I know I could get away without it on my controller.... transference is great. My defender doesn't have it but struggles at times during av's when RA is down. My regen has stamina and quick recovery and still occaisonally has endurance problems in heated battles. My invul scrapper is useless without it.... with it he will run out of endurance in half of the fights without a def/cont around for buffing.
My fire/dev blaster pretty much requires it...
So, it isn't necessary for all builds, because some powersets have endurance buffing powers. Other builds that want to be effective will need it.
Oh, and since this is a thread about the 'endurance discount'... I haven't noticed a discount AT ALL on ANY of my builds. I am actually skeptical as to whether or not there really is a discount implemented in the game.
Replying to last in thread, not to anyone in particular.
I have noticed the endurance reduction.
Unfortunately, it was offset by the loss of three slots in stamina.
Fortunately, none of my attacks are slotted 1acc/5dam anymore, thanks to ED. Now the common slotting of 1acc/3dam/1rec-rec/1end-red is in place, so the end reduction on top of the global end reduction is overcoming the loss of 3 slots in stamina.
Tack on the radical reduction in the recharge time of rest, and I really don't run into end problems.
Some of my characters MUST still have stamina. My ene/fir brute, my cla/sr scrapper, both my Khels, (although with Stygian Circle 6 slotted for recharge and recovery my WS could live without it) my corrupters....
Some are skipping the whole fitness pool like my dar/ea brute. He's got 3 powers that enhance end recovery. I doubt my MM will need fitness. Dark/EA brute, on the flipside, may be the 1st character I've ever had that will add slots to sprint. Since I won't have swift to speed me up, I'm going to have to leave sprint on all the time, which means 3end-reds right there.
All in all, endurance issues aren't that bad for any of my 12 characters at this point in time.
Be well, people of CoH.
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1acc/3dam/1rec-rec/1end-red is in place, so the end reduction on top of the global end reduction is overcoming the loss of 3 slots in stamina.
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That's very odd.
Doesn't the 1/3 reduction in recharge time and the 1/3 reduction in END use (from enhancements) balance out?
In theory, you should be using the exact same amount of END/Time as if you attacks were not enhanced with that END reduction.
Is there some other reason that you aren't feeling the END drain any more? The recharge increase and lack of END drop from Hasten, maybe?
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Oh, and since this is a thread about the 'endurance discount'... I haven't noticed a discount AT ALL on ANY of my builds. I am actually skeptical as to whether or not there really is a discount implemented in the game.
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Cant agree more.
I haven't noticed an endurance discount either, and I believe that Conserve Power (Blaster Secondary) is actually INCREASING my endurance costs. (I can run whirlwind much longer without CP than with it.)
How does the End. reduction help my SR scrapper when he is on his back because the new Enhan. system has left him worthless?
You guys need to go back and look at end costs, because I feel weaker at low levels than I EVER have before. I don't remember ever having end problems like I do now in CoV.
I am skeptical there's been a reduction, and as many have mentioned, lack of 6 slotted stamina removes that bonus from the 25+ levels anyways.
To those that say stamina isn't necessary, it depends on what you mean. If you say 'stamina is necessary in order not to suck', then you would be correct.
I have more End problems than ever....
AND on top of that Hasten isnt perma anymore.... you know you get a lump amount of end drained when hasten wears off, Therefore the more you can use hasten the less end you have.
We dont have perma hasten and have less end now.
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I have more End problems than ever....
AND on top of that Hasten isnt perma anymore.... you know you get a lump amount of end drained when hasten wears off, Therefore the more you can use hasten the less end you have.
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I hate ED, but for accuracy's sake...
Under perma hasten, when the old hasten wore off, you still got the endurance hit. Perma hasten only meant that, when the old hasten wore off, you had a new hasten up. So, since you're no longer able to use hasten so often, you're not experiencing the endurance loss from hasten wearing off so often, and that saves you some endurance. In fact, since the fifth and sixth enhancement are of minimal value, 4 recharge + 2 Endurance Reduction may work. (Does endurance reduction reduce the penalty when wearing off?)
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Stamina is not any less necessary. It is still required for the vast majority of builds.
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It is only "necessary" if you wish to play a certain way. It is much less "necessary" than it was before. You see it as such because you wish to play that way. The game only assumes that you will spend at least part of your character on endurance management. Most choose stamina because it is the easy way out. Personally I also happen to like the perks offered by Swift, Hurdle and Health and so Stamina is absolutely no loss to me.
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Since we can only 3 slot Stamina now, it doesn't even let us break even to where we were before.
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FYI you can still six slot stamina.
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Instead of a certain play style you can choose the little old lady play style. Or the Over 40 over wieght long distance runner. Gasp Gasp gasp ok gotta rest.....
It is not required but why would you not want it such a super hero type thing to be fit and have boundless energy? Agreed i like swift and health a lott to. If your a Kinetic or a regen maybe your not taking it or if you have seriosuly slotted for end red then you need it less. Most of us having slogged through the low levels running out of end all the time are glad to see L20 come around.
My COV Brute still has serious END issues and i have to restock INSP before every mission. Yeah down time for the win. Even with 1 END red in every active power and 2 in a the higher end cost ones plus stamina 3 slotted i am gasping for breath. Popping around 5-6 Blues and taking a knee a couple times a mission depending on mission size. This character needs more stamina but its not availble to me.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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Not to mention HEALTH, they did absolutely nothing to counteract the loss of health regen with ED. Everyone made a big deal about Stamina, but Health matters too.
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You say this as if it's an oversight or a consequence of ED that the devs didn't foresee. Trust me, they were/are fully aware of the effect of ED on various regen skills (health, fast healing, quick recovery, instant healing, dull pain, integration....). Regens have been nerfed and nerfed again with every single issue. It's fully intentional.
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Regens KEEP getting nerfed...and are still really good! Thats the bad part in PvP