[ QUOTE ]
ill repeat what i said 2 posts ago 13% endurance discount is exactly the amount of endurance you used to recover pre Enhancement Diversification, stop whining and hit rest between battles.
[/ QUOTE ]
For some people it is not a matter of whining about not LIKING it rather than it is affecting how they play. It is a matter of game flow. I don't want to stop and rest between every fight. It is the one drawback in soloing in CoV right now. Previously, a well slotted Stamina allowed me to end one fight and by the time I got to the next on I had enough Stamina to jump right in. Now you have to stop and REST. You may think it's okay. I, for one, do not. It stops my game flow. This is how I like to play. The way you play is fine for you if you want to use the REST option. Personally, I think they just ought to up the base regeneration rate of Endurance and be done with it.
[ QUOTE ]
ill repeat what i said 2 posts ago 13% endurance discount is exactly the amount of endurance you used to recover pre Enhancement Diversification, stop whining and hit rest between battles.
[/ QUOTE ]
you chime in with this after my post so i will address it.
if i have to stop and rest after every group of baddies/goodies
that i kill distracts from my illusion of being a hero/villian
same as if i could not fast forward the advertisements on a tivo'ed program. you take me out of the game to deal with the real life issue that i must stop and let my stam build up once or twice is a non issue but every time?:/
a game is to get me away from the r/l stress not to give me
fantasy stress ontop of what i need to get away from games are to have fun and relax hang with friends and do my part to help toward a common goal.
just cause you are cool with it does not mean you can smack my hand and say pay attention. i want a escape from this game that is why i pay every month i will except stress from my job they pay me but when i have stress in a game i pay for it is unacceptable am i wrong? and is it for you to say?
i think not.
You know perhaps slotting an endurance in each attack might help. Heck i even do that with my kat/regen. 3 slotted QR and stamina and i still have 1 end redu in each attack.
for my non regen characters i usually run 3 slotted stamina and 1-2 end redu in attacks. I dont seem to have any endurance problems.
the point of my previous posts however is the fact that while you are attacking you are using less endurance than you used to( toggles may be an exception i dont know). You also arent regenerating that endurance either and if toggles didnt get a discount then the discrepancy might be there.
Also i use rest maybe once every three battles or so ( while solo and fighitng +1 or +2 mobs in groups of 3-5 with my invul/ss).
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
[ QUOTE ]
the discount amounts to 1-4 points per attack, usually 2 points. so with an attack chain 4 long you can save approximatly 8 endurance.
assume for arguement that chain takes 10 seconds to execute.
8 endurance every 10 seconds is 24 end/ minute or .4 endurance a second which is the same recovery youd get with an additonal 3 slots in stamina.
the endurance that you are no longer recovering you are also no longer using. Also keep in mind rest hasa reduced recharge time so you can use it more often to reduce any additonal down time you might have ( and the nerf to stamina does effect your downtime, but not your combat effectivness )
the devs actually handled stamina and ED pretty well. The real failure they had is all the defensive powers that got this 1/3 enhancment nerf and didn get anything to compensate.
So if you want to complain about enhancement diversification, complain about scrapper/tank defenses becuase they actually got nerfed whereas our endurance did not.
[/ QUOTE ]Not just defenses but damage too. Which is a real problem. You are assuming that combat effectiveness (damage) did not go down as well. But it did. A standard 1 acc 5 dam attack now has 25% less effectiveness in terms of damage. We did not "break even" We are less effective.
Using your above data lets say the 4-move attack chain took out a +1 minion. That same attack chain will NO LONGER DO SO. It will take at least 1-2 extra attacks, saving you nothing. You pay more endurance to take out the same +1 minion. Not so bad when you are taking on a +1 minion by himself. He doesn't present a threat. Soloing an even level or +1 boss and his minions, a whole 'nother problem. Taking on AV's? A joke. Fighting Nosferatu the other day 20 minutes of straight pounding he just would not die. This was with a well balanced 7-man team. He was 43 and the average level was 41 facing him. Rediculous.
I don't mind they changed it. It's fresh and new. Great. MAKE THE SECONDARY EFFECTS DO SOMETHING! Disorient Duration for SS attacks? It'd be nice if it actually disoriented reliably. Why in heck would I slot something that happens only 10% of the time? It'd be like slotting damage on an attack for a scrapper and only getting the damage bonus on crits only. it'd also be nice to actually slot for a INCREASE is disorient possibility! Say a 10% additional chance to disorient, instead of increasing the duration.
Same with the Acc debuffs of Dark Melee for example. Make it worthwhile to slot that stuff.
I'm all for change for the better. ED is a nice change, I'm waiting for the better.
EDIT: My liberal use of pronouns gets myself and a whole host of other people in trouble... a lot...
When is this change coming?
[ QUOTE ]
When is this change coming?
[/ QUOTE ]Errgg, correcting my post, there seems to be some confusion!
i suppose what it comes down to is that the devs finally gave into their own failure with the enhancment system. They must have not understood the concept of power gaming and the levels people will goto to break the systems that games have.
There are those of us that will take the tools given to us and hone them so finely that we can wield them against the toughest, most dangerous threats avalible to us and we will stretch the limits of our power as far as they will go. There is no challenge for us unless it is meant to be impossible and even then we strive to overcome.
when faced with a broken system we ended up showing just how broken it was, just how much better our way of doing things was compared to someone who didnt strive to be the absolute strongest, fastest and most powerful. There was this grand caynon size gap between the 5/6 slotted builds comapred to the actual diverse builds the devs had envisioned everyone playing.
So now everything is ruined in the system. Many powers have been weakened, and their potential has also been cut back with a "diversification" scheme. Its like the Devs team tried to build a family car, but came out with Turbo charged dodge viper. So what did they do when they realised they had made the car too powerful for what they had intended? Tore out the engine , replaced it with used parts from obscure manufactuers and hoped youd never find a way make the car even a shadow of its former self. That wasnt enough though, they also put in a smaller gas tank and punctured it to boot.
You can only squeeze so much blood out of a stone before you realise its your own and then pass out.
We infact can slot our powers to compensate what was taken away, but that doesnt diversify us, it will move us closer to being the same. We get the to all enjoy the refirbished 4 door version of a viper, rusting frame and all. Did I mention they all come in black , fit for a funeral. Heros are dead, theyve been balanced with civillians.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
[ QUOTE ]
i suppose what it comes down to is that the devs finally gave into their own failure with the enhancment system. They must have not understood the concept of power gaming and the levels people will goto to break the systems that games have.
There are those of us that will take the tools given to us and hone them so finely that we can wield them against the toughest, most dangerous threats avalible to us and we will stretch the limits of our power as far as they will go. There is no challenge for us unless it is meant to be impossible and even then we strive to overcome.
when faced with a broken system we ended up showing just how broken it was, just how much better our way of doing things was compared to someone who didnt strive to be the absolute strongest, fastest and most powerful. There was this grand caynon size gap between the 5/6 slotted builds comapred to the actual diverse builds the devs had envisioned everyone playing.
So now everything is ruined in the system. Many powers have been weakened, and their potential has also been cut back with a "diversification" scheme. Its like the Devs team tried to build a family car, but came out with Turbo charged dodge viper. So what did they do when they realised they had made the car too powerful for what they had intended? Tore out the engine , replaced it with used parts from obscure manufactuers and hoped youd never find a way make the car even a shadow of its former self. That wasnt enough though, they also put in a smaller gas tank and punctured it to boot.
You can only squeeze so much blood out of a stone before you realise its your own and then pass out.
We infact can slot our powers to compensate what was taken away, but that doesnt diversify us, it will move us closer to being the same. We get the to all enjoy the refirbished 4 door version of a viper, rusting frame and all. Did I mention they all come in black , fit for a funeral. Heros are dead, theyve been balanced with civillians.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bravo we do see eye to eye almost this is a new system so it too will have that fine edge you speak of we will hit it and do it in a way the dev's still never dreamed. but their need to make us feel we have to just makes me upset:/ i am a alt'aholic for me being a power gamer is almost to a illness but still i get them optimal than blam they are broken again
the sheer time waste bums me out lol.
/rant off
The endurance discount is not enough to counterbalance what they've done to Stamina. With ED stamina is 30% less useful, I believe its about that, but we've been given a 13% cut across the board... this doesn't do much, and it really isn't the right way to go about it when some people didn't even take stamina.
What they need to do is make certain enhancements only for certain powers, and then they can decide ok, this this and this are not being affected by the changes.
For instance... Super Jump has the jumping enhancement, Super Speed has the run speed enhancement and flight has a flight speed, which all came under lesser penalties with ED, however Teleport only used standard range and therefore took a beating with ED. There should be a Teleportation Buff enhancement.
Stamina should have a different type of endurance recovery enhancement so that the recovery aura can still get nerfed if they want it to be, and then stamina can use the new one under lesser penalty.
Not to mention HEALTH, they did absolutely nothing to counteract the loss of health regen with ED. Everyone made a big deal about Stamina, but Health matters too.
[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention HEALTH, they did absolutely nothing to counteract the loss of health regen with ED. Everyone made a big deal about Stamina, but Health matters too.
[/ QUOTE ]
You say this as if it's an oversight or a consequence of ED that the devs didn't foresee. Trust me, they were/are fully aware of the effect of ED on various regen skills (health, fast healing, quick recovery, instant healing, dull pain, integration....). Regens have been nerfed and nerfed again with every single issue. It's fully intentional.
I'm just saying that they did this endurance cut like stamina was the only power that got a raw deal. I no longer have a regen scrapper, I wasn't a really good scrapper anyways and the nerfs just talked me out of it. But I was playing my blaster last night for the first time since i6 and I am CONSIDERABLY weaker and more vulnerable. It's really terrible. :-(
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention HEALTH, they did absolutely nothing to counteract the loss of health regen with ED. Everyone made a big deal about Stamina, but Health matters too.
[/ QUOTE ]
You say this as if it's an oversight or a consequence of ED that the devs didn't foresee. Trust me, they were/are fully aware of the effect of ED on various regen skills (health, fast healing, quick recovery, instant healing, dull pain, integration....). Regens have been nerfed and nerfed again with every single issue. It's fully intentional.
[/ QUOTE ]
I somehow don't believe they're "fully aware." Every issue everything has been "working as intended" and every issue we still see "re-balancing." And the re-balancing is STILL not done yet.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention HEALTH, they did absolutely nothing to counteract the loss of health regen with ED. Everyone made a big deal about Stamina, but Health matters too.
[/ QUOTE ]
You say this as if it's an oversight or a consequence of ED that the devs didn't foresee. Trust me, they were/are fully aware of the effect of ED on various regen skills (health, fast healing, quick recovery, instant healing, dull pain, integration....). Regens have been nerfed and nerfed again with every single issue. It's fully intentional.
[/ QUOTE ]
I somehow don't believe they're "fully aware." Every issue everything has been "working as intended" and every issue we still see "re-balancing." And the re-balancing is STILL not done yet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that, as regen goes, "re-balancing" has meant new nerfs with each new issue, without exception. Given the devs' clear indications that they think regen is overpowered, I highly doubt they're going to start buffing it in the name of re-balancing.
I wish the DEVs would realize that if balanceing needed to be done they should buff rather than nerf if at all possible. Buff mobs, buff the AT's that need buffing etc. Weaking someones character should be that last available option, not the first. In general players like buffs... even if it is a buff to their oppenents, but we hate nerfs.
[ QUOTE ]
I wish the DEVs would realize that if balanceing needed to be done they should buff rather than nerf if at all possible. Buff mobs, buff the AT's that need buffing etc. Weaking someones character should be that last available option, not the first. In general players like buffs... even if it is a buff to their oppenents, but we hate nerfs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this is what they first tried...bringing other powers up to par with each other...then found out we were overpowered.
Then they tried to increase enemy difficulty but some classes suffered.
In the end it led to a massive round of nerfs. Buffing can only be done in certain situations.
I agree with it, when mob get harder in a game, players tend to have challenge's feelings, instead hate they have about nerfs; that would be almost the same results in a way, but without making anger grow in people's hearts 
[ QUOTE ]
ill repeat what i said 2 posts ago 13% endurance discount is exactly the amount of endurance you used to recover pre Enhancement Diversification, stop whining and hit rest between battles.
[/ QUOTE ]
so we are all only allowed to fight one person at a time now? Because I'm sorry I'm a blaster, I'm not trying to fight mobs, but I rarely see a mission where the guys are standing all by themselves everywhere, and pulling isn't flawless.
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll still burn more endurance having to attack every mob twice to do the same damage I used to do with one shot. Running six slotted damage on a */devices blaster was an opportunity afforded to me because I gave up buildup. Now, without compensating for the loss of buildup I can also not have the damage of six slotted attacks without severely wasting the value of slots 4,5, and 6.
I use the example of a */dev blaster but this is true for almost every single other build. You will STILL use more endurance than you did pre-ED because you will HAVE to attack everything more often.
ED is one of the most obvious tactics I have seen in any MMO to turn the game into a timesink and increase the financial profitability by forcing people to take much longer to accomplish the goals of the game. I take it as a personal insult to the collective intelligence of the playercore that they floated ED in under the auspices of wanting to diversify builds and thus make the game more fun for all.
What will be diversified next? Will there be a timer set up on how long we can be logged in because it will be more fun for us if we know we can't be on for more than an hour?
Fireclad - Neon Peon - Inner Voice - Confused Larry - Pep Squad - Bob's Secret - Squidclad
[ QUOTE ]
ED is one of the most obvious tactics I have seen in any MMO to turn the game into a timesink and increase the financial profitability by forcing people to take much longer to accomplish the goals of the game. I take it as a personal insult to the collective intelligence of the playercore that they floated ED in under the auspices of wanting to diversify builds and thus make the game more fun for all.
[/ QUOTE ]
No a blatant timesink would be crafting.
ED makes the game far easier to balance for everyone. ED is also the equivalent of having stat caps in other MMORPG.
Pre-ED would be like being able to max out your stats with your only limit being the gear that you could find. Post ED would be the implementation of a stat cap.
Having played without the cap I can understand you feel a bit weaker, but every hero can still own and feels much stronger still than characters in other MMORPG....where you fight a single enemy, or maybe 2-3 at a time.
As for the Endurance discount. The endurance discount backed by the fact you have 3 extra slots to plug into endurance reduction, should you need them, should more than equalize the endurance useage problem.
As for attacking twice as much to kill the same enemy. I never did the 5/1 split. Worst I would do is the 4/2 split. Spreading your slots across many ability is just as effective as loading up on 1-2.
Course, I have a long RPG and MMORPG history so building/playing a character comes more or less naturally to me.
One thing I have learned thru various MMORPG, RPG, and even games such as Armored Core, Mechwarrior and such that include alot of customization.
Ther are many many many effective ways to do things. The popular one's are typically the least subtle or the ones requiring less thinking or effort. OR they or initially more impressive though they might be around the same as a less impressive seeming build.
Another thing. Many times a build that might be 10% less effective might be insanely more fun. EXPERIMENT. Play around with powers, AT's, and slotting. Try to use things in ways you haven't before. You'd be suprised what you miss sometimes.
To give a concrete example of custimization at work. In mechwarrior most people build a huge, slow engine of destruction built around the dmg you can do in 1 shot. Seems rather impressive.
Many however used slightly smaller machines, or different weapons which though not as effective 1st shot were just as effective and prolly more fun.
Then you had people like me that jumped in the lil bite sized runt machines, usually nicknamed "anklebiters". I would charge at high speed dodging all sorts of pyrotecnic heck and use my limited firepower to strategicly cripple and harass enemy mechs. If I could I would finish one off.
I couldn't take a hit worth a crap, but i could avoid most shots. I didn't have much firepower, but I used what firepower I had consistantly and precisely.
Point being there are many builds and many ways to play. Most of which are fun. Don't be afraid to branch outand try things. Also understand that many times the "popular builds" arn't the best just because thier popular, they just tend to be the easiest or most initially impressive.
This is too little too late. I have respected my most fun ATs and found them all no fun to play anymore. Add to that the fact that many of my friends are splitting their time between CoH and CoV and the game has lost it's appeal. I've gone from daily player to haven't played in a week and finding other things to do. To bad it was fun for over a year but the Dev's killed it by not planning for game play beyond 50. CoV and PvP isn't it, for some of us. 
Phi on Infinity
Phi Phantom - lvl50 Ill/Rad troller
Phi Amur - Lvl50 Claws/Regen Scrapper
Phi Electron - Lvl36 Elec/Energy Blaster
Phi Inferno - Lvl28 Fire/Dev Blaster
Phi Fender - Lvl26 Kinetics/Archery Defender
Phi Transiter - Lvl18 Peacebringer
So...they plan gameplay beyond 50....then....you go thru that. Now you want more....so they add more....then you go thru that and want more.
It's not a problem that can really be fixed because there will always be a definite limit....UNLESS your talking about PVP which is not everyone's cup of tea.
There is no real way to fix the end game problem...eventually you will always hit a wall.
But since this is your hugest problem how would you give 50's continous content that would not run out?
Then of course there is the fact that most people are prolly still in the 20-40 lvl range.
One suggestion: Add unlimited missions, (a feature like a police radio that tells of random acts of vandalism you can stop through the city) and keep raising the level limit each issue, add new epic archtypes that you can only get at level 60, 70, 80, etc. Ofcourse I see the counter argument in that you eventually STILL do hit a wall.
But not with unlimited missions. Have the missions give presitge on the level of the way influence is given out now or maybe even at half of the level that influence is given now. One advantage of this is that people might stop complaining about base building costs and would be more inclined to make PVP raidable bases.
Just some suggestions. What do ya'll think?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
One suggestion: Add unlimited missions, (a feature like a police radio that tells of random acts of vandalism you can stop through the city) and keep raising the level limit each issue, add new epic archtypes that you can only get at level 60, 70, 80, etc. Ofcourse I see the counter argument in that you eventually STILL do hit a wall.
But not with unlimited missions. Have the missions give presitge on the level of the way influence is given out now or maybe even at half of the level that influence is given now. One advantage of this is that people might stop complaining about base building costs and would be more inclined to make PVP raidable bases.
Just some suggestions. What do ya'll think?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this has nothing to do with Endurance Discount, which is what this thread concerns.
[ QUOTE ]
One suggestion: Add unlimited missions, (a feature like a police radio that tells of random acts of vandalism you can stop through the city) and keep raising the level limit each issue, add new epic archtypes that you can only get at level 60, 70, 80, etc. Ofcourse I see the counter argument in that you eventually STILL do hit a wall.
But not with unlimited missions. Have the missions give presitge on the level of the way influence is given out now or maybe even at half of the level that influence is given now. One advantage of this is that people might stop complaining about base building costs and would be more inclined to make PVP raidable bases.
Just some suggestions. What do ya'll think?
[/ QUOTE ]
Unlimited missions that gain you nothing are bad because they get boring real fast.
Higher lvl caps each issue is bad...too much crap to add/balance and many people arn't even close to the current cap...which is why any MORE bonus AT at high lvl is bad.
[ QUOTE ]
One advantage of this is that people might stop complaining about base building costs and would be more inclined to make PVP raidable bases.
[/ QUOTE ]
NEVER!!!
[ QUOTE ]
I think this has nothing to do with Endurance Discount, which is what this thread concerns.
[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is pretty dead and I think it prolly deserves to be locked.
*places mod beacon*
That's simply illogical.
If the amount of endurance increase = endurance we had before
then people would not be noticing a difference.
And the numbers from all the hero planners and independent testing would not reveal a shortfall in Endurance for a Regen Scrapper (3 instead of 6 SOs in Quick Recovery, 3 instead of 6 SOs in Stamina).
Please show with some credible numbers that
13% reduction in active powers (Note there was no reduction in Toggles, some were actually increased) = Endurance we had before ED.
-Jentia Argool(Bostic)
Freedom Server
Spines/Regen I5 Guide!
SG:-Civic Alliance
Jentia Argool (41)- Spines/Regen Scrapper
Justice Server - Jab Molassie (14) En/Ela Brute
Devil Mas(11) Dk/Dk Brute
Hechler Glocklan (20) Th/Dk MM