Try running toggles on an */invuln scrapper, especially a higher-lvl one. Your tune will change. I've shelved mine for this very reason.
Again, I said on an SR scrapper, at lower levels. As one picks up more toggles, it's understandable. So, I suggest we not try and show eachother how right we are, but post our experiences, and maybe suggestions? That might cut down the thread lengths. The Dev's might have a hard time responding to really lengthy threads.
I suggest a reduction by a per power bases as needed, such as on defensives, for tanks and scrappers notably. They're less effective now, ok. maybe make them cost a touch less if we can. May not be possible with the whole grid that Geko talked about, and how numbers are dropped into it and the system maps it out....
Hmm maybe also, a SLIGHT increase in the effectiveness of stamina as it's just 3 slot, OR a slight increase in the effectiveness of end reducer enhances?
What do you guys suggest?
Also, I didn't have a "tune." I was relaying my experiences, as some mentioned not percieving the effect of the end reduction. I can see it, so i gave examples.
This isn't a "tune" per se.
cmon devs. put a freaking poll up here, let everyone vote if we need more end discount. we'll see if this game is made for the players or not. we'll see if you care about the people who pay the bills.
dont even bother putting polls about ED or other past nerfs... you just might embarass yourselves.
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Try running toggles on an */invuln scrapper, especially a higher-lvl one. Your tune will change. I've shelved mine for this very reason.
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What do you consider higher level? My level 32 MA/INVUN scrapper does just fine. Granted I cannot fight mobs like I used to. I have to actually think about jumping into a group. But to me that is just fine. I actually like a challenge to my games
As a player that left in mid August and coming back just a few weeks ago I felt like I had resurfaced in a bad Sliders episode of CoH.Ive delved thru the forums reading for hours at a time trying to take in----ED---- and all it entails. Ive played my old characters some 10-20s one 30+ and started several new ones.
The main thing I noticed right away is that I DO NOT feel as "superhero-ee" anymore(laugh away Forum Nazis)
I really do not want to sound over critical since I left CoH (my first MMO )to go to WoW (I do have a fantasy itch unfortuantely WoW just didnt scratch it)and only after a few months realized how much I missed CoH. Despite its lack of "Story" depth that I would like I missed its populace,character creation, and feeling like that Super Hero that I day dreamed of being in Jr.High (Im now 27 lol)so please devs dont feel that I hate you and your game and dont feel the need to call you names even. BUT the game that I missed so and will stay in (for now) has changed for the worse.No its not horrible now (from a man with no 50s) but I want the game that I missed so to come back. Yes Im ok with changes even ones that call for me or my alts to be a little weaker (for the sake of the game)I feel that im much more forgiving than many of the posts I read and for the first time I am sympathizing more with the ppl that I usually mentally chastise for their lack of"give". Why Devs? Why? Im not cancelling, not cursing you, not cursing the game, but WHY?
your one time real happy fan, and now glad to be back but no where near as happy player(notice the lack of fan)
DK
feel free to not reach me in the City @Does Not Exist.
All other locations I can not be reached in are =
XBL- BigBlueMachine/Steam - BigBlueMachine/PSN-BigBlueMachine/ RL aggro - "Husband","Daddy","HeyYou!" and "blue"
As I said i would, in other threads anyhow, I'm updating. I hope devs see this one too...
The claws/sr build i have running, and it's blindly right now as no good guides are up, is starting to run our of end a touch, if i use spin alot. this would be after battling mobs of 8-15 baddies (team size of 7-8) with several bosses, or 3-5 groups of 3 spawn (solo mission or street hunting zero to no bosses). So, hmm. Thoughts: I'm still level 10 only, so end can become a problem at times, but i still have MUCH more than i used to before the end reduction. If i use spin in mob situations only, i'm usually fine. also, i have 4 slots in each attack all with accuracy for now, so i hit probably about 80-90% of the time, if i would estimate.
So, end still not an issue, but i have to be concious of it for the future. I run 1-2 toggles continuously also.
You've apparently perceived some attack on you where none was present. Or at least none was intended. Quite the contrary--I've thought your posts in general have been well thought out and rational. Here, you were describing your experiences with a lower-level SR scrapper. I was merely saying that the experience is a different one with */invulns. I never said you were wrong, I was simply adding a brief description of how things work with a different build. My bitterness is with the devs, not with you.
No problem, I hadn't seen any attack, just didn't have a particular stance as yet, just reporting what i find so far. I have no ill regard for your post, and didn't think you were coming down on me at all. So far at lower levels, I see little end problems, but we all know later on is where one picks up more toggles so, we shall see.......
I actually had to respec out of the Fighting pool (losing Tough and Weave) because I simply couldn't afford the endurance to keep all those toggles running. Getting rid of the Fighting pool alleviated some of my endurance problems, but (a) I still run out of end easily, with just the */invuln toggles running, and (b) I'm obviously a little squishier with the loss of Tough and Weave. But it's the continuing endurance problems that have made me shelve him. It's just tedious to do 4 attacks and then have to Rest.
Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience with my Inv/SS tanker.
She was 44 when ED came and she had all kinds of end problems; I relied heavily on Conserve Power. But then when ED hit and I put end redux SOs everywhere, I found I had so much end that I respecced (1) into adding Tough, which I hadn't had before, and (2) dropped Conserve Power, since I no longer needed it.
I have one end modifier (or whatever they're called now) in all my attacks and all my toggles, and the three in stamina. I will run out of stamina eventually constantly hitting attacks, but it takes quite awhile and in any fight that lasts that long, I usually have a teammate who can give me end in some way.
(Note that I'm not claiming that my tanker is stronger or more enjoyable than before, just that she has a lot more end in my experience and can easily run her Inv toggles.)
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Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience with my Inv/SS tanker.
She was 44 when ED came and she had all kinds of end problems; I relied heavily on Conserve Power. But then when ED hit and I put end redux SOs everywhere, I found I had so much end that I respecced (1) into adding Tough, which I hadn't had before, and (2) dropped Conserve Power, since I no longer needed it.
I have one end modifier (or whatever they're called now) in all my attacks and all my toggles, and the three in stamina. I will run out of stamina eventually constantly hitting attacks, but it takes quite awhile and in any fight that lasts that long, I usually have a teammate who can give me end in some way.
(Note that I'm not claiming that my tanker is stronger or more enjoyable than before, just that she has a lot more end in my experience and can easily run her Inv toggles.)
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Perhaps the difference lies in the fact that you're a tank (invuln primary) and I'm a scrapper (invuln secondary). I obviously don't know your playstyle, so this is pure conjecture, but a tank can get away with just standing there and taunting if he runs low on end. As a scrapper, I'm constantly attacking. So I go through end at a good pace. And with all those toggles going, it didn't take long for me to fizzle out (with the resulting toggle-drop and higher odds of death at that point). I really had to watch my end to try to avoid the toggle-drops. I also relied heavily on Conserve Power, so I was not thrilled when ED came along and nerfed it--along with my stamina. Respec'ing for ED compliance didn't help. That's why he lives on the shelf now.
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Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience with my Inv/SS tanker.
She was 44 when ED came and she had all kinds of end problems; I relied heavily on Conserve Power. But then when ED hit and I put end redux SOs everywhere, I found I had so much end that I respecced (1) into adding Tough, which I hadn't had before, and (2) dropped Conserve Power, since I no longer needed it.
I have one end modifier (or whatever they're called now) in all my attacks and all my toggles, and the three in stamina. I will run out of stamina eventually constantly hitting attacks, but it takes quite awhile and in any fight that lasts that long, I usually have a teammate who can give me end in some way.
(Note that I'm not claiming that my tanker is stronger or more enjoyable than before, just that she has a lot more end in my experience and can easily run her Inv toggles.)
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Perhaps the difference lies in the fact that you're a tank (invuln primary) and I'm a scrapper (invuln secondary). I obviously don't know your playstyle, so this is pure conjecture, but a tank can get away with just standing there and taunting if he runs low on end. As a scrapper, I'm constantly attacking. So I go through end at a good pace. And with all those toggles going, it didn't take long for me to fizzle out (with the resulting toggle-drop and higher odds of death at that point). I really had to watch my end to try to avoid the toggle-drops. I also relied heavily on Conserve Power, so I was not thrilled when ED came along and nerfed it--along with my stamina. Respec'ing for ED compliance didn't help. That's why he lives on the shelf now.
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This is a great point, I wonder if sr would have the same problem as it is toggle heavy. I wonder if the later game will impact endurance that badly on sr? So, invuln may have end issues. Any thoughts on how one may over come this, anyone?
Actually, I think you've completely missed the complete difference
S.O.
They are still a massive change in effect.
They gutted powersets to avoid addressing the SO problem directly (and to avoid the problem of power interaction)
They created ED to reduce the min-maxing of SO slotting.
The Devs will probably never actually listen to what I've suggested they need to do specifically to fix the problems (can't say at all because I did mention they needed to look at SO to some degree). Training enhancements are a joke. Defense powers at low levels were a joke before I5 (now they're too sad to even laugh at)
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Actually, I think you've completely missed the complete difference
S.O.
They are still a massive change in effect.
They gutted powersets to avoid addressing the SO problem directly (and to avoid the problem of power interaction)
They created ED to reduce the min-maxing of SO slotting.
The Devs will probably never actually listen to what I've suggested they need to do specifically to fix the problems (can't say at all because I did mention they needed to look at SO to some degree). Training enhancements are a joke. Defense powers at low levels were a joke before I5 (now they're too sad to even laugh at)
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SO, Since I completely missed the point, so you say, inform me. How did they gut, or overlook, or completely avoid problems? How are they not listening specifically to you? In what ways is it worse now than before? In what ways would your suggestions balance to what they need the game to dp? How are you suggestions superior, and how would they get better results?
Not condescending, I'm looking for your answers. As I missed the point, please, fill me in.
People, People, again why do you think this game is all about the damage, when it is not. That is all they are trying to tell you. But all you do is complain, whaa I cant solo a purple now. SO FRICKIN WHAT!!!! maybe at that point you call some friends and get the job done. Using all of your combined ablities like slow, knockback, burn, etc, etc, etc.
I have tried ED as an lvl 40 ivun/axe tanker without respecing and i went through a couple mishes just to test out ED, i brought along my emp def, friend just incase. You want to know what happened. I was sailing through the mish, and my emp friend actually got so board at some points that he sat down in the middle of a fight with 1 purp/2 red/ and 4 orange Crey.
So please explain to me again why you all are complaining especially you invun tankers.
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People, People, again why do you think this game is all about the damage, when it is not. That is all they are trying to tell you. But all you do is complain, whaa I cant solo a purple now. SO FRICKIN WHAT!!!! maybe at that point you call some friends and get the job done. Using all of your combined ablities like slow, knockback, burn, etc, etc, etc.
I have tried ED as an lvl 40 ivun/axe tanker without respecing and i went through a couple mishes just to test out ED, i brought along my emp def, friend just incase. You want to know what happened. I was sailing through the mish, and my emp friend actually got so board at some points that he sat down in the middle of a fight with 1 purp/2 red/ and 4 orange Crey.
So please explain to me again why you all are complaining especially you invun tankers.
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Glad you can do it at lvl 40. Try 10-40 yet? It's a major grind to build a power up with the pittance on influence, and have trouble with Gen Enhance with white cons, due to a number of misses with the same power. They at least need to look at Gen and maybe DOs and up the percentage a bit, and in turn it'll make the powers miss less, and do better damage/range/defense/etc.
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Glad you can do it at lvl 40. Try 10-40 yet? It's a major grind to build a power up with the pittance on influence, and have trouble with Gen Enhance with white cons, due to a number of misses with the same power. They at least need to look at Gen and maybe DOs and up the percentage a bit, and in turn it'll make the powers miss less, and do better damage/range/defense/etc.
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So what your teliing me is that from the very start things should be so easy that people quit because they are bored.
The early levels help us find what we need if we are missing, then common sense dictacts that we put an acc in.
Just because ED is here doesnt mean you HAVE to comply with it. I havent and Statesman is yet to come round and break my thumbs. I have Stamina 6 slotted on my 50 tank, all his primaries are 6 slotted, toggles are 1 end red and 5 dmg resist or defense as the power calls, the passives all have 6 of the only type they will take.
With Stamina 6-slotted and green, it is 110% of normal (with a few +'s in there), what is it with only 3 greens slotted?
If the good guy gets the girl, it's rated PG;
If the bad guy gets the girl, it's rated R;
And if everybody gets the girl, it's rated X
- Kirk Douglas
I think one of the main problems with the enhancement schedules is that they follow an exponential benefit for improving. Having a single SO is like having FOUR trainings. So you having 3 of this, 2 of that, 1 of that per power would be comparable to 18 training enhancements. That is one of the problems that I see.
Another major problem is how powers stack. If you have one power that gives 20% resistance and you have another power that gives 20% resistance. When you have the second power on, because of how things stack, it is actually reducing the damage you take by 25%. I'll try to explain.
Take an attack that does 100 damage. 20% reduction would be 20 damage less. Currently, the 20% adds directly to the other 20% (40% resistance). If they could change it so that it layers differently, ie power B reduces damage that passed through power A by 20%, they would get different numbers. Players would take 64 in that case instead of 60. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.
They had a major problem when people had 3 or 4 powers that all added significant resistances (hence resist caps, otherwise many sets would be completely immune) which often happened at higher levels.
I will admit, that changing things to layer instead of stack would have taken a significant amount of programming time (changing the actual code, not just a few values) and would take processing time too (muliplication is more intense than addition).
But, if they could have layered them they wouldn't have had to nerf the powers at lower levels. Also, I would have liked them to do something to the effect of enhancements. Take the 8/16/33 and shift it to 10/15/20 or even 8/16/24. Players would still invest the extra for the SOs, but the game wouldn't be as incredibly hard to balance between people 5 slotting damage and 5 slotting other effects.
Now, one of the other major complaints that I had been seeing is the difference between tanks and scrappers. I haven't seen as much at higher levels as I have at lower, but a 10% resist is fairly trivial compared to how much less damage you would take by clearing things out 30% faster (taking an attack power vs a defense at lower level). Especially with tanks and scrappers still have approximately the same health as each other, and about the same as anybody else.
The game is drastically different at higher levels though. When taking another defense power would reduce the damage you take by yet another 20% (if you already have 3 that reduce by 20% another would cut damage by half) and tanks have tremendously more health than anybody else.
From information I've been able to gather for level 50, non-regen scrappers actually heal about 30% more health/second than a controller because they have more health. Tanks heal 40% more health per second than non-regen scrappers because they have that much more health. (Tanks about 85% more than controllers and such).
Now, I will admit that what I've suggested isn't neccessarily the absolute best fix. It doesn't address everything. I will also admit again that it would have been a lot more work than what they had done. But, I still believe it would have been a more beneficial approach towards actual game balance.
Could also be that I missed something in what I was reading of yours too. Thought I had read yours as being pre-SO, but I can't find it in the thread right now.
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I think one of the main problems with the enhancement schedules is that they follow an exponential benefit for improving. Having a single SO is like having FOUR trainings. So you having 3 of this, 2 of that, 1 of that per power would be comparable to 18 training enhancements. That is one of the problems that I see.
Another major problem is how powers stack. If you have one power that gives 20% resistance and you have another power that gives 20% resistance. When you have the second power on, because of how things stack, it is actually reducing the damage you take by 25%. I'll try to explain.
Take an attack that does 100 damage. 20% reduction would be 20 damage less. Currently, the 20% adds directly to the other 20% (40% resistance). If they could change it so that it layers differently, ie power B reduces damage that passed through power A by 20%, they would get different numbers. Players would take 64 in that case instead of 60. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.
They had a major problem when people had 3 or 4 powers that all added significant resistances (hence resist caps, otherwise many sets would be completely immune) which often happened at higher levels.
I will admit, that changing things to layer instead of stack would have taken a significant amount of programming time (changing the actual code, not just a few values) and would take processing time too (muliplication is more intense than addition).
But, if they could have layered them they wouldn't have had to nerf the powers at lower levels. Also, I would have liked them to do something to the effect of enhancements. Take the 8/16/33 and shift it to 10/15/20 or even 8/16/24. Players would still invest the extra for the SOs, but the game wouldn't be as incredibly hard to balance between people 5 slotting damage and 5 slotting other effects.
Now, one of the other major complaints that I had been seeing is the difference between tanks and scrappers. I haven't seen as much at higher levels as I have at lower, but a 10% resist is fairly trivial compared to how much less damage you would take by clearing things out 30% faster (taking an attack power vs a defense at lower level). Especially with tanks and scrappers still have approximately the same health as each other, and about the same as anybody else.
The game is drastically different at higher levels though. When taking another defense power would reduce the damage you take by yet another 20% (if you already have 3 that reduce by 20% another would cut damage by half) and tanks have tremendously more health than anybody else.
From information I've been able to gather for level 50, non-regen scrappers actually heal about 30% more health/second than a controller because they have more health. Tanks heal 40% more health per second than non-regen scrappers because they have that much more health. (Tanks about 85% more than controllers and such).
Now, I will admit that what I've suggested isn't neccessarily the absolute best fix. It doesn't address everything. I will also admit again that it would have been a lot more work than what they had done. But, I still believe it would have been a more beneficial approach towards actual game balance.
Could also be that I missed something in what I was reading of yours too. Thought I had read yours as being pre-SO, but I can't find it in the thread right now.
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Great points all, and i'm still having little issues with my scrapper and blaster both i deleted and remade do see how ed is from a fresh perspective. They're both in the teens now, and end is a bit more challanging on the sr, so it's quite possibly by the 30's i may have end issues, if i wanted to perform close to what i was pre issue 5. If i were to scale back my crazy meter, and perform more reasonably, i may still have no end issues. but so far, no real end issues.
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Glad you can do it at lvl 40. Try 10-40 yet? It's a major grind to build a power up with the pittance on influence, and have trouble with Gen Enhance with white cons, due to a number of misses with the same power. They at least need to look at Gen and maybe DOs and up the percentage a bit, and in turn it'll make the powers miss less, and do better damage/range/defense/etc.
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So what your teliing me is that from the very start things should be so easy that people quit because they are bored.
The early levels help us find what we need if we are missing, then common sense dictacts that we put an acc in.
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If boredom is getting faceplanted on white cons, maybe. I know almost all my Protector toons need major help in the influence dept, and the influence I get is about as good as the xp at 25: Near nothing. We either (a) need more drops, or (b) make enhancements in general cheaper, that might help. Right now, I'm stuck with Generals in most my powers due to little inf drops.
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Glad you can do it at lvl 40. Try 10-40 yet? It's a major grind to build a power up with the pittance on influence, and have trouble with Gen Enhance with white cons, due to a number of misses with the same power. They at least need to look at Gen and maybe DOs and up the percentage a bit, and in turn it'll make the powers miss less, and do better damage/range/defense/etc.
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So what your teliing me is that from the very start things should be so easy that people quit because they are bored.
The early levels help us find what we need if we are missing, then common sense dictacts that we put an acc in.
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If boredom is getting faceplanted on white cons, maybe. I know almost all my Protector toons need major help in the influence dept, and the influence I get is about as good as the xp at 25: Near nothing. We either (a) need more drops, or (b) make enhancements in general cheaper, that might help. Right now, I'm stuck with Generals in most my powers due to little inf drops.
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Ok first of all are you going to the contacts that deal with your type of origin. Second if you are getting face planted by white cons then maybe something is wrong with how you set up your char in the first place. Third are you hunting/miss hunts, or doing actual missions. And finally are you going around in sg mode always cause the higher level you get the less infulence you get for running around in sg mode.
But in all honesty if you are having that much trouble think about what really is causing the trouble, like acc, what kind of damage they are doing to you, what type of AT you are playing, and do not, i repeat do not blame ED, INMHO ED has the game more fun, we were giving all these cool extra abilities, that no one was using they were all trying to do was more and more damage. And i say again this game is not ALL about the damage, but it is about all the other things besides damage we can to do so they dont as you say face plant us. Like with my tank axe does knockback from the very beginning i loved this ability because if someone was running past me to get to the squishies as i like to call them, the knockback seemed to hit more often and stopping the baddy in tracts plus now it is aggroed on me. Now with MM alot of my henceman's abilites have to do with debuffs yes considering the fact that my henceman are mostly a combo of brutes and scrappers i thought about damage until i noticed the types of debuffs that they do and i then relized how benifical that would be to whole team not just my henceman but if i was teamed up with someone as well.
So when you got the time for talking again, but until then figure out what really is causing the problem and stop blaming pour little ED again.
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Glad you can do it at lvl 40. Try 10-40 yet? It's a major grind to build a power up with the pittance on influence, and have trouble with Gen Enhance with white cons, due to a number of misses with the same power. They at least need to look at Gen and maybe DOs and up the percentage a bit, and in turn it'll make the powers miss less, and do better damage/range/defense/etc.
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So what your teliing me is that from the very start things should be so easy that people quit because they are bored.
The early levels help us find what we need if we are missing, then common sense dictacts that we put an acc in.
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If boredom is getting faceplanted on white cons, maybe. I know almost all my Protector toons need major help in the influence dept, and the influence I get is about as good as the xp at 25: Near nothing. We either (a) need more drops, or (b) make enhancements in general cheaper, that might help. Right now, I'm stuck with Generals in most my powers due to little inf drops.
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Ok first of all are you going to the contacts that deal with your type of origin. Second if you are getting face planted by white cons then maybe something is wrong with how you set up your char in the first place. Third are you hunting/miss hunts, or doing actual missions. And finally are you going around in sg mode always cause the higher level you get the less infulence you get for running around in sg mode.
But in all honesty if you are having that much trouble think about what really is causing the trouble, like acc, what kind of damage they are doing to you, what type of AT you are playing, and do not, i repeat do not blame ED, INMHO ED has the game more fun, we were giving all these cool extra abilities, that no one was using they were all trying to do was more and more damage. And i say again this game is not ALL about the damage, but it is about all the other things besides damage we can to do so they dont as you say face plant us. Like with my tank axe does knockback from the very beginning i loved this ability because if someone was running past me to get to the squishies as i like to call them, the knockback seemed to hit more often and stopping the baddy in tracts plus now it is aggroed on me. Now with MM alot of my henceman's abilites have to do with debuffs yes considering the fact that my henceman are mostly a combo of brutes and scrappers i thought about damage until i noticed the types of debuffs that they do and i then relized how benifical that would be to whole team not just my henceman but if i was teamed up with someone as well.
So when you got the time for talking again, but until then figure out what really is causing the problem and stop blaming pour little ED again.
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LISTEN FANBOI: I KNOW how my characters play, They are BLASTERS and DEFENDERS. Defenders I know faceplant easily, But since the ED messed up General Enhancements (yes they lowered the percentage from 9-10% to maybe 7-8% unenhanced), I am FORCED to buy SOs with INFLUENCE, whic is so expensive I barely afford 10 with 200,000 influence! I'm sure this formula can help:
200,000 INFLUENCE + Lvl 25 enhancement = Not enough
Other problem is when going against enemies with 25's like this, acc is shot still, missing 3-5 in a row, which if up against one LT, that can COMPLETELY DRAIN YOUR ENDURANCE BAR, even WITH Stamina 2-slotted, and WITH the end discount. Try using a freeze ray that NEVER HITS ITS TARGET everytime it's fired. That is one important thing taken away from me since I5, and now I6/ED, when the recharges were increased. THIS is why those costs need to come down, or INF/drops need increases: So heroes can upgrade, instead of whine about an "acc nerf/My toon can't hit anything." I simply want my Freeze Ray back so I can take Bosses in the missions I go alone (which is most of the time, since ED is killing my server hero-side).
I'm playing low lvl toons and i don't remember any time i had more endurance. This isn't fan boy time, I do want some things changed, but i did mention to people the other day, My ene/ene blaster and claws/SR scrapper with toggles on didn't run out of endurance. I wnet through like 4 mobs of 3-6 guys with a pal all white and orange to me, and only by the 3rd mob was i running a bit low, so i hit a blue pill. Now, this SEEMS to be not TOO bad, i can solo mobs of 3 guys, white to orange, with toggles on sr, without dying, and without running out of end. I can definetly percive the 13% discount, it feels even higher sometimes. Granted i can't Mash through mobs like nuts before, and i get lower on health, meaning i can die a bit easier. Hmm, this does make it more challanging, and a bit slower. That can be somewhat frustrating, i can see at times. but i DO see the end reduction, and running toggles on an sr scrapper I don't run out of end.