K, Xero, let's talk about "fun". I'm going to describe an in-game event that happened to me recently.
I was playing two Sonic/Sonic Defenders in Warburg.
Player X was playing a Claws/Energy Stalker in Warburg.
I was standing around in the middle (water area) of the zone, looking up my contact info... and "STAB!", Barrier Double loses half her health. Thank goodness for double Dispersion field! That would have been a one-shot!
I wonder why I didn't see him, since I have two Tactics up... triple-Stealthed? Weird.
I see the Stalker, so I target him with one of my toons and shoot back. Weird, the other toon isn't firing... ah, Aid Another doesn't work in PvP - forgot.
He SuperSpeeds away. I heal myself to full (medicine pool power) and get back to my Contacts screen.
At this point I keep an eye on my second monitor, and make sure that no one else is getting too close. I see some Brutes get close, and then leave. I guess they didn't feel like soloing against 2 Sonics?
"Stab!" Double Barrier loses half her health. Same Stalker as before. I target him with Shout, but he's too far away to hit, and I only tag him once. He SuperSpeeds off. Allright, now I'm annoyed.
I start hunting for this Stalker, using one of my Heroes by herself as bait. As soon as I start to see him, I jumped down from the building I was standing on, and manage to target him with both toons.
He sticks around until he's at half-health, and keeps attacking for minimal damage. Maybe he had to stay due to SS suppression? In any event, he Speeds away again.
I go to my mission, and come out. "STAB!" there he is again. I try to follow him, but he's just impossible to see. As I'm somewhat irritated, I hang around for him to attack again.
I try 6-stacking Clarity on myselves. No effect. Finally, after about 4 more attacks, I get a /Tell: "Die Already!"... to which I respond "Stop Hiding Already!".
Five minutes later I leave the zone.
Kills (Me): 0
Kills (Him): 0
Time spent (Me and Him): 45+ minutes.
Fun (Me and Him): None. A complete and total waste of time.
Games where neither side can win are no just un-fun, but a complete waste of time. I won't be bothering to hang around Warburg on Protector again any time soon.
I do have a question: why did my self-buffs work? I was under the impression that there was penetrating damage in PvP?
I hope this helps,
-> Scott.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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K, Xero, let's talk about "fun". I'm going to describe an in-game event that happened to me recently.
I was playing two Sonic/Sonic Defenders in Warburg.
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Do you have two Kin/Elec Defenders on Protector by chance, G.S?
Changing the title of a thread in the Developer's Corner is just uncool in my opinion. I don't even think you guys are talking about the endurance discount anymore anyway.
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Changing the title of a thread in the Developer's Corner is just uncool in my opinion. I don't even think you guys are talking about the endurance discount anymore anyway.
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See, Personamorpher, this is the kind of thing that gets you flamed. I'm not even saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that, when your post slams them TWICE, it's not unreasonable to assume that ONE of them MIGHT get pissed off. 
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Changing the title of a thread in the Developer's Corner is just uncool in my opinion. I don't even think you guys are talking about the endurance discount anymore anyway.
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Wow......what gave you that idea?......
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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K, Xero, let's talk about "fun". I'm going to describe an in-game event that happened to me recently.
I was playing two Sonic/Sonic Defenders in Warburg.
Player X was playing a Claws/Energy Stalker in Warburg.
I was standing around in the middle (water area) of the zone, looking up my contact info... and "STAB!", Barrier Double loses half her health. Thank goodness for double Dispersion field! That would have been a one-shot!
I wonder why I didn't see him, since I have two Tactics up... triple-Stealthed? Weird.
I see the Stalker, so I target him with one of my toons and shoot back. Weird, the other toon isn't firing... ah, Aid Another doesn't work in PvP - forgot.
He SuperSpeeds away. I heal myself to full (medicine pool power) and get back to my Contacts screen.
At this point I keep an eye on my second monitor, and make sure that no one else is getting too close. I see some Brutes get close, and then leave. I guess they didn't feel like soloing against 2 Sonics?
"Stab!" Double Barrier loses half her health. Same Stalker as before. I target him with Shout, but he's too far away to hit, and I only tag him once. He SuperSpeeds off. Allright, now I'm annoyed.
I start hunting for this Stalker, using one of my Heroes by herself as bait. As soon as I start to see him, I jumped down from the building I was standing on, and manage to target him with both toons.
He sticks around until he's at half-health, and keeps attacking for minimal damage. Maybe he had to stay due to SS suppression? In any event, he Speeds away again.
I go to my mission, and come out. "STAB!" there he is again. I try to follow him, but he's just impossible to see. As I'm somewhat irritated, I hang around for him to attack again.
I try 6-stacking Clarity on myselves. No effect. Finally, after about 4 more attacks, I get a /Tell: "Die Already!"... to which I respond "Stop Hiding Already!".
Five minutes later I leave the zone.
Kills (Me): 0
Kills (Him): 0
Time spent (Me and Him): 45+ minutes.
Fun (Me and Him): None. A complete and total waste of time.
Games where neither side can win are no just un-fun, but a complete waste of time. I won't be bothering to hang around Warburg on Protector again any time soon.
I do have a question: why did my self-buffs work? I was under the impression that there was penetrating damage in PvP?
I hope this helps,
-> Scott.
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Glad you are speaking for someone else.
So, you were reading your contacts list in a pvp zone? Smart.
Why didn't you see him? Uhm, cause you were reading your contacts list, in a PVP zone.
If you don't like PVP then don't go in a PVP zone.
And last time I checked you can check your contacts info in any zone.......
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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After reading posts and thinking this over, I agree with 98% of the complaints about the recent "updates". My blaster is sqishier (if thats a word) than before, and my brute is like a tank that gets his butt kicked all the time.
Now it seems to me that these updates were done in the interest of "balence" for PVP. My question is why have PVP at all? Are there that many people who use it? and if so why does it seem to me that the Arenas and PVP zones are mostly empty, except for those doing required missions in there? I recently went to Warburg and there was a "Gentlemans rule" of not messing with others without a challenge. If people want to PVP why not just have the "duel" anywhere and let the rest of us go about our business and not foul up the game?
That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
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What server are you on? And since when can't you go about your business through this entire game from lvl 1-50, and NEVER step in a PVP zone. Oh, that's right......you can.....but I guess this falls on the "it's existence bothers me" excuse to b1tch.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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Changing the title of a thread in the Developer's Corner is just uncool in my opinion. I don't even think you guys are talking about the endurance discount anymore anyway.
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Wow......what gave you that idea?......
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Maybe it was because I was paying attention?
K, Xero, let's talk about "fun"
Fun is subjective. What is fun to some will not be fun to others. I think reading these boards should have made that quite clear by now.
Games where neither side can win are no just un-fun, but a complete waste of time
Two skillled opponents fighting to a stalemate. Sounds like it was pretty interesting to me.
I was under the impression that there was penetrating damage in PvP?
Stalker and Scrapper Critical damage as well as a percentage of blaster damage ignores damage resists. There is also the general damage debuff capabiltiy provided by players doing missions in those zones.
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Changing the title of a thread in the Developer's Corner is just uncool in my opinion. I don't even think you guys are talking about the endurance discount anymore anyway.
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Wow......what gave you that idea?......
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Maybe it was because I was paying attention?
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Pssshhh....
I call NERF to attention!!
I am sick of being able to target things until I kill them.......sorry....."arrest" them.....I think after each attack you should have to re-aquire your target lock.
NERF ATTENTION, it's overpowered!!
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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You can still six slot stamina.
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Sure, but is 6 slotting it now as much of an improvement as it was prior to ED? No offense, but your response is pretty stupid.
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Blasters are endurance pigs to begin with.
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Yes, I am aware. The point being?
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You can still take hasten and have it up quite often which makes any possible reductions insignificant.
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Like many, I do not want to take hasten. Endurance is bad enough as it is and the end loss from hasten doesn't make this power attractive. No offense, but your response just goes to show that ED did nothing for diversity, only look to force people into further cookie cutter builds that are easier to balance against.
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Do you have two Kin/Elec Defenders on Protector by chance, G.S?
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Yes, I do, the Brother-Sister pair Effervesence and Exuberance. Man, they are a blast to play. But boy, my hands get tired!
On a side note, it's simply amazing to me how useless /Kinetics is as a defensive set. Wow, do they take a lot of damage! Good thing /Kinetics has an awesome heal! 
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Sure, but is 6 slotting it now as much of an improvement as it was prior to ED?
You said you couldn't. Couldn't and wouldn't don't mean the same thing.
No offense, but your response is pretty stupid
So was your statement.
I do not want to take hasten.
But you want all the benefits provided by it.
Endurance is bad enough as it is and the end loss from hasten doesn't make this power attractive.
Yet I still see players taking it.
No offense, but your response just goes to show that ED did nothing for diversity
Last I checked most people weren't slotting 5 or 6 of the same type of enhancement into a power. They are tending to slot 2 or 3 of one type then 2 or 3 of another with 1 or 2 of a final. Their enhancements are diversified! It wasn't called player build diversification, though I'd wager builds are now more varied than they were prior to ED.
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Their enhancements are diversified! It wasn't called player build diversification, though I'd wager builds are now more varied than they were prior to ED.
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I'd wager they aren't. All my previously-diversified builds (the various "experimental" toons I've worked on) are no longer playable, and have been either deleted or "cookie-cuttered".
I have seen diversity go down. It's a natural effect of the total ability of Characters being reduced.
Consider:
No Hasten? People are taking more attacks for their attack-chains, and less fun/different powers.
Less damage? People are taking Stamina when they did not before, in order to afford the END cost of using more total attacks.
Less Defense? People are taking more Defensive powers than they used to, in order to keep some level of survivability.
What I am seeing is that Players don't accept/understand that they are supposed to be weaker, so they feel driven to optimize their Characters, at an expense to playability and individuality.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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[ QUOTE ]
K, Xero, let's talk about "fun". I'm going to describe an in-game event that happened to me recently.
I was playing two Sonic/Sonic Defenders in Warburg.
Player X was playing a Claws/Energy Stalker in Warburg.
I was standing around in the middle (water area) of the zone, looking up my contact info... and "STAB!", Barrier Double loses half her health. Thank goodness for double Dispersion field! That would have been a one-shot!
I wonder why I didn't see him, since I have two Tactics up... triple-Stealthed? Weird.
I see the Stalker, so I target him with one of my toons and shoot back. Weird, the other toon isn't firing... ah, Aid Another doesn't work in PvP - forgot.
He SuperSpeeds away. I heal myself to full (medicine pool power) and get back to my Contacts screen.
At this point I keep an eye on my second monitor, and make sure that no one else is getting too close. I see some Brutes get close, and then leave. I guess they didn't feel like soloing against 2 Sonics?
"Stab!" Double Barrier loses half her health. Same Stalker as before. I target him with Shout, but he's too far away to hit, and I only tag him once. He SuperSpeeds off. Allright, now I'm annoyed.
I start hunting for this Stalker, using one of my Heroes by herself as bait. As soon as I start to see him, I jumped down from the building I was standing on, and manage to target him with both toons.
He sticks around until he's at half-health, and keeps attacking for minimal damage. Maybe he had to stay due to SS suppression? In any event, he Speeds away again.
I go to my mission, and come out. "STAB!" there he is again. I try to follow him, but he's just impossible to see. As I'm somewhat irritated, I hang around for him to attack again.
I try 6-stacking Clarity on myselves. No effect. Finally, after about 4 more attacks, I get a /Tell: "Die Already!"... to which I respond "Stop Hiding Already!".
Five minutes later I leave the zone.
Kills (Me): 0
Kills (Him): 0
Time spent (Me and Him): 45+ minutes.
Fun (Me and Him): None. A complete and total waste of time.
Games where neither side can win are no just un-fun, but a complete waste of time. I won't be bothering to hang around Warburg on Protector again any time soon.
I do have a question: why did my self-buffs work? I was under the impression that there was penetrating damage in PvP?
I hope this helps,
-> Scott.
[/ QUOTE ]
Glad you are speaking for someone else.
So, you were reading your contacts list in a pvp zone? Smart.
Why didn't you see him? Uhm, cause you were reading your contacts list, in a PVP zone.
If you don't like PVP then don't go in a PVP zone.
And last time I checked you can check your contacts info in any zone.......
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Speaking for someone else? He TOLD me that this was, and I quote, "boring and unfun". I agreed.
I can read my contacts in the middle of a PvP if I want. Why not? That's what capped +Resists are for - ignoring the downsides of PvE missions in PvP zones...
I don't know why I didn't see him until his attack sequence went off. I wish someone could answer that for me. From Castle's posts, +Perception shrinks the reduced view distance that +Stealth powers give.
I can only conclude that Tactics x 2 and Clarity X 6 is still "range 0" for Hide + Stealth + Super Speed. If true, that's a balance problem.
I had no choice but to enter the PvP zone - one of my missions is very old and I'm saving for SG members (each toon has a badge mission, L12-ish), and the second mission was an old Hunt mission I had finished, and hadn't visited the contact in FF to clear. The Warburg missions were all I had up.
You managed to totally miss the point, though, which was that I had no possiblity of defeating him, and he has very little possibility of defeating me.
Zero sum combats, are, for a lot of people, slow, boring, and painful.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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Sure, but is 6 slotting it now as much of an improvement as it was prior to ED?
You said you couldn't. Couldn't and wouldn't don't mean the same thing.
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You are mincing words. My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now. Everyone knows you can still 6 slot any power.
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Sure, but is 6 slotting it now as much of an improvement as it was prior to ED?
You said you couldn't. Couldn't and wouldn't don't mean the same thing.
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You are mincing words. My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now. Everyone knows you can still 6 slot any power.
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And that is the entire problem with pre-ED COH. The fact was, in the old days, 6 slotting hasten and 6 slotting stamina gave BETTER returns per slot than 6 slotting other powers. That made those 12 slots more 'valuable' than 6 slotting powers in primaries and secondaries. In other words, everyone 6 slotted hasten and stamina, because 6 slotting an attack didn't have the same game payout, slot per slot, than those two powers had. That is why I have always been supportive of ED.
Now, when a player is fighting purples, it does mean something. It means the character is going to have a tough skirmish on their hands.
On the contrary, the greater return on the 6 slotted stamina helped the 1 or 2 end reducers I already had slotted into attacks equal less downtime. Now it's to the point where I fire 3 or 4 shots, wait a minute for end to return and repeat.
The only thing different and "tough" about fighting purples in CoH after ED is waiting for endurance to return. My attacks were always slotted 2 acc, 2 damage, 1 end red, 1 recharge red. ED did nothing for me in this respect except incfease downtime.
My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now.
According to some of the number crunchers on the forums 6 slotting Stamina pre-ED and Post-ED combined with the Global Endurance Reduction are equivalent.
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According to some of the number crunchers on the forums 6 slotting Stamina pre-ED and Post-ED combined with the Global Endurance Reduction are equivalent.
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And according to some of these "number crunchers", you can do more damage with brawl than with Total Focus.
13.3% endurance reduction is a joke. Anyone who believes their endurance is better post ED, more power to them. I know my endurance isn't.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now.
According to some of the number crunchers on the forums 6 slotting Stamina pre-ED and Post-ED combined with the Global Endurance Reduction are equivalent.
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None of those number crunchers work for the IRS I hope!
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My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now.
According to some of the number crunchers on the forums 6 slotting Stamina pre-ED and Post-ED combined with the Global Endurance Reduction are equivalent.
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So.... now stamina is reduced by 1/4 what it was, but powers are only reduced in cost by 13% (roughly 1/6). I can't see how that could possibly add up to being equal.
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And that is the entire problem with pre-ED COH. The fact was, in the old days, 6 slotting hasten and 6 slotting stamina gave BETTER returns per slot than 6 slotting other powers. That made those 12 slots more 'valuable' than 6 slotting powers in primaries and secondaries. In other words, everyone 6 slotted hasten and stamina, because 6 slotting an attack didn't have the same game payout, slot per slot, than those two powers had. That is why I have always been supportive of ED.
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Yes, Yes. And 4 slots in Leadership->Tactics (1 ENDRED, 3 To-Hit) replaces any need for Accuracy (or, at the least, saves one Accuracy slot) for any Defender, Controller, Corruptor, or Mastermind who takes it. If two team members have it, it can even replace Accuracy for any AT.
I hate to break this to you, but "toon building" is basically a euphemism for "slot efficiency", so any power that covers for any other power is a balance issue.
I don't understand your attitude at all. Are you honestly trying to claim that player knowledge should be punished? Are you stating that "playing well" does not, and should not, include planning out your Character?
Either you are, which involves depriciating other's effort...
Or you aren't, which means you have a weak argument.
I await your response.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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My intent was to show that 6 slotting of stamina prior to ED had a much greater return than it does 6 slotting it now.
According to some of the number crunchers on the forums 6 slotting Stamina pre-ED and Post-ED combined with the Global Endurance Reduction are equivalent.
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Not true. You're correct that the END use stayed the same (the 13% reduction pretty much equals the 3 lost slots in Stamina). Isn't it great to be correct?
Too bad you "forgot" to acknowledge that ED = less damage = more attacks used = more endurance spent.
So, yes, Stamina was "balanced against". Bummer your END-usage equation is totally wrong, though.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Ganking (to me) has always been defeating an unsuspecting player.