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That seems irrational.
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I will concede that it *sounds* irrational, and to a certain extent, I believe it is. However, what the tank does, by definition, is manage aggro and survive. If everyone pulls their fair share, you will find the tanker doing significantly less than other ATs because it cannot compete in Damage mitigation. While mobs may focus on the tank, mitigating damage to other ATs, the actual mitigation is so small that a tank requires the assistance of a defender / controller to buff, who can perform the same functions on other team members as well as contributing damage / buffs to each member of the team (excepting themselves in most cases) not to metion control and debuffs
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One controller cannot lock down a full team spawn on Invincible.
One defender cannot heal 7 people fast enough to recover all of the damage caused by a full team spawn on Invincible.
One scrapper or blaster couldn't take down a full team spawn on Invincible with no heals or other support.
Why should One single tank be able to hold aggro with no buffing for a full team spawn on Invincible?
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Because the one controller can still Control his share of foes AND add buffs / debuffs to the mix.
Because the one defender can give damage mitigation to ALL the party AND add damage to the mix.
Because the one Scrapper / Blaster can provide the best damage mitigation of all - removing mobs from the equasion.
Assuming the tank attacks "more than his fair share" of mobs, holds their aggro, he cannot do so without buffs in this team setup. For the cost of buffing the tank, by eliminating the tank and adding another buffer (or debuffer or damage dealer), you will have stronger damage mitigation than you will from having the tank because the tank can no longer be depended on to do his function without being monitored like every other AT.
Thus, while it sounds irrational to expect a tank to do that - that is what most people consider the job of the tank. Not to pull an 8-man invincible mob and survive INDEFINITELY and / or DEFEAT them without assistance ... but to survive for a significantly longer period than double-buffed Scrappers or "squishies" so that said scrappers and squishies can focus on cherry-picking the most important mobs to get rid of without having to worry about healing / buffing the tank as much as the rest of the party.
Otherwise, what does the tank contribute? Downtime as his slow recharges retoggle, and (in some cases) slow movement catches up and his under-damaging attacks recharge and his HP refills or is healed (thus costing the defender as much, if not more time replenishing endurance and waiting for power recycling).
Without the ability to survive a spawn like that unaided (not DEFEAT and not BE UNHARMED) for a significant time, just in case the party needs to flee / regroup / rez / whatever, in a reliable and timely manner, a Tanker adds VERY LITTLE to a group that could not be added by another AT which would bring more benefits besides.
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*Slips on long legged boots*
Something smells like a load....
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All very true, go test it. Thank you.
All of this is reproducable. All my end effecting stats are there. go test it?
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Sempre_Fi,
What is your mission level set to for your Tank?
Thanks.
Perse
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I set it to invincible at lvl 24 and haven't changed since.
Guys, this isn't a tank thread, it's an endurance thread. Can we stick to that, please?
Two things Scion. You didn't have it out with me at any time. Your manner is disrespectful in my view, and i asked/informed you to desist.
Scion, your comments to the Burst fellow concerning "tanks died in I4" and "learn to read, then post" were very lacking in grammatical correctness, so please refrain from attacking his ability to read should you choose not to exercise any ability to communicate in a written fashion. The actual literal meaning of "tanks died in I4" would mean very specificaly that Tanks (plural) died in issue 4. Meaning they all died. So, his response to you was accurate. They did not "die" in issue 4. Now, if you meant to say "even a tank could suffer from defeat or death in issue 4," then you would be accurate. There's a literal difference between the two, which wouldn't usually be an issue. HOWEVER, you chose to accost someone in written fashion with the comment, "learn to read....." which then would hold you to your own statement requiring you to "learn to communicate clearly" should you have ANY desire to not look like a pedantic hipocrate.
Not that you are one, just that SHOULD you strive NOT to be one, you would need to follow the above guidelines of communication to do so.
And Scion, you have no idea what my attitude on anything is unless I specifically tell you what it is. You can assume. That's something, I suppose. We all know what assuming makes someone into. 
I will gladly pvp your tank anytime Mistress. What server are you on? It's not Justice I am assuming cause I have never seen you in Sirens or Warburg.
Now when I said tanks get owned in PVP does that mean every single tank? NO, there are a few tanks out there that can hold their own. But as a whole they are pretty gimped. Ever try a Fire tank in PVP? You don't even have KB protection unless you get acrobatics, which means you have to take 3 total powers from leaping.
To the "regen" tank - because your ONE type of tank that takes aid self etc etc is able to do missions on invincible and take the agro from "17 +3 mobs" doesnt mean ALL tanks can do it. In FACT most tanks can't do it.
You said I need to maybe "adjust my play style" which to me means I should now be expected to buy aid self? My fire tank already has a self heal and consume. He just can't tank the dmg at all. 2 Shields with a total of 6 dmg resists between them just can't cut it in PVP or PVE. Thats a FACT.
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I will gladly pvp your tank anytime Mistress. What server are you on? It's not Justice I am assuming cause I have never seen you in Sirens or Warburg.
Now when I said tanks get owned in PVP does that mean every single tank? NO, there are a few tanks out there that can hold their own. But as a whole they are pretty gimped. Ever try a Fire tank in PVP? You don't even have KB protection unless you get acrobatics, which means you have to take 3 total powers from leaping.
To the "regen" tank - because your ONE type of tank that takes aid self etc etc is able to do missions on invincible and take the agro from "17 +3 mobs" doesnt mean ALL tanks can do it. In FACT most tanks can't do it.
You said I need to maybe "adjust my play style" which to me means I should now be expected to buy aid self? My fire tank already has a self heal and consume. He just can't tank the dmg at all. 2 Shields with a total of 6 dmg resists between them just can't cut it in PVP or PVE. Thats a FACT.
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Please re-read my posts and show me exactly where i said all tanks can tank as well as eachother. Please also show me where my posts say ANY tank can tank 17 +3 foes.
You mention that "possibly adjust your playstyle" to you means "i should now be expected to take aid self." You specifically add a question mark to the end of this, so i will answer it (even though it's glaringly obvious that it is rhetorical). **Here's your answer: no you don't need to take aid self.**
My comment about your playstyle was in direct reference to your innabilities to tank, AS SPECIFIED in your post.
I would imagine, if you review your post, and my post pertaining to said post, you would then see that i suggested possibly it's your playstyle. I would also surmise we both understand that in our native language that saying the word "playstyle" does not equal the words "aid self." Also i would surmise we both understand that "aid self" is not a synonym of "playstyle." It simply means: how you play.
I specifically did not mention ways to alter it as a) this would be very assumptive in light of the fact i do not actually know your playstyle and can only suggest it may BE your playstyle, as many other tanks can actually do this; and b) would be considered rude, as i wouldn't attempt to condescend to your playstyle without actually having witnessed it.
You mention in your post that "most tanks" cannot do what i have mentioned in my posts. Most means majority. A stone tank can do this. An invuln tank can do this. So, half the tanking CLASS can do this. Most would be a greater share of the tank class, or 51% or more.
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Guys, this isn't a tank thread, it's an endurance thread. Can we stick to that, please?
Two things Scion. You didn't have it out with me at any time. Your manner is disrespectful in my view, and i asked/informed you to desist.
Scion, your comments to the Burst fellow concerning "tanks died in I4" and "learn to read, then post" were very lacking in grammatical correctness, so please refrain from attacking his ability to read should you choose not to exercise any ability to communicate in a written fashion. The actual literal meaning of "tanks died in I4" would mean very specificaly that Tanks (plural) died in issue 4. Meaning they all died. So, his response to you was accurate. They did not "die" in issue 4. Now, if you meant to say "even a tank could suffer from defeat or death in issue 4," then you would be accurate. There's a literal difference between the two, which wouldn't usually be an issue. HOWEVER, you chose to accost someone in written fashion with the comment, "learn to read....." which then would hold you to your own statement requiring you to "learn to communicate clearly" should you have ANY desire to not look like a pedantic hipocrate.
Not that you are one, just that SHOULD you strive NOT to be one, you would need to follow the above guidelines of communication to do so.
And Scion, you have no idea what my attitude on anything is unless I specifically tell you what it is. You can assume. That's something, I suppose. We all know what assuming makes someone into.
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Wow....was just gonna post the same thing almost. Thank you Sempre_Fi for doing it for me.
But to beat the zombie horse a wee bit more.....Scion, I am not "drunk"- glad to see the level that you must believe people post at to possibly disagree with you.
Also I am posting because I think I got it- I got what drives you Scion to post on and on and on about ED and I5- You DO have the "facts" on your side. You have the numbers and math on your side. Tanks are MUCH weaker than they were in I4, and under ED they have almost been spayed and/or nuetered. But all these "facts" aside, what really pi$$es you off is the "FACT" that there are still people out there playing and more disturbing ENJOYING their tanks, dispite the losses and shots they have tanken since I5. And you cannot fathom that- you are like the Grinch siting atop of the mountain looking down at who-ville- wondering what is meaning of Christmas, how can the Whos' still enjoy Christmas without all the material things he stole from them. I would love to see tanks get something back in I7, I would love to see powers that only take one type of enhancement get some love as to what else the power could slot- or get the ability to reach a certain cap on its own. The difference is that it won't break the game for me if I don't get anything.
To take this topic back to the OP- I would LOVE to see the fitness pool become an inherent. LVL 6- you get hurdle, LVL 10- you get swift, LVL 14- you get health, LVL 20- you get Stamina, all of these powers scale to your lvl. To compensate introduce more end draining villians through out the game. I am sure someone else has come up with this idea, and I am sure someone else has beaten it to death as well.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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He, he... Not really to contribute anything but I quit CoH in like Issue 3 and just came back a week ago, so I have certain memories of the former state of affairs. Tanks (invulns in particular) were broken and everyone knew it. It was _bad_.
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You will not find me saying that NO adjusting needed to be done. My response is an appeal to the opposite extreme of "all tanks routinely solo'ed AV's", which is patently untrue.
Even AV's who COULDN'T hurt me, like when I tanked Infernal at +2 so my blaster friend could take him out "solo" - (he didn't take any damage, and I didn't do any, that kind of thing), couldn't be defeated by my tank solo, because I COULDN'T overcome their regeneration rate.
And my controller? Please. Couldn't maintain a reliable hold, there WAS no "containment", and whenever Phantom Army went down, AV's would take out my Phantasm and chase me around, regenning the damage I'd been doing like crazy.
So, yeah, if you're remembering I3, there were some things that needed fixing. But what was done to tanks with the combination of I5 and ED, including aggro nerf, damage nerf, defense nerf and damres nerf, has swung the pendulum MUCH too far the other way.
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Quote:
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No one. That doesn't mean tanks are, either. A tank should be able to tank for an 8-man team, taking the aggro, and the damage, from a full spawn while his teammates do whatever it is that squishies do during that time.
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This is the crux of the matter right here.
There are only 5 different ATs, meaning that least three-slots of an 8-person team will have redundant ATs. Yet despite this, some people believe that a Tanker should be in the unique position where a *single* one can do their job (holding aggro and not dying) for a full team of 8, on Invincible, with *no help* from the other 7 members of the team.
That seems irrational.
One controller cannot lock down a full team spawn on Invincible.
One defender cannot heal 7 people fast enough to recover all of the damage caused by a full team spawn on Invincible.
One scrapper or blaster couldn't take down a full team spawn on Invincible with no heals or other support.
Why should One single tank be able to hold aggro with no buffing for a full team spawn on Invincible?
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Because, even with a great tank, the spawns are likely going to go after the squishies somewhat, when they start doing damage. That means their attacks on the tank are on again/off again, as he regains aggro stolen by a pair of blasters, or what have you. He doesn't have to TAKE all the damage or attacks from a full spawn, but he SHOULD be able to "tank" the spawn alone. This allows the "extra" slots to be filled by more damage dealers and lockdown/debuff types. With two tanks, the damage drops significantly, or the control, but the aggro doesn't correspondingly become better managed, due to random aggro grabbing between two tanks operating in close proximity, whether by taunt, punvoke, or aura.
A controller can see if mobs are confused or what-have-you. A defender can see the debuffs running in an area, whose buffs are fading, etc. A tanker CANNOT necessarily "see" that, out of 10 mobs, 3 of the 5 he's about to try to taunt are already focused on another tanker.
Hence, it is better for the entire TEAM if there is only ONE tanker, so long as that tanker can stand the punishment long enough for the alpha strikes and follow-ups to fade, while the other AT's do their jobs.
But obviously, just because it's better for the whole team, and hence for all players, doesn't mean it's better for everyo...oh, wait, yes it does....
P.S. There are 7 AT's in COH. Warshades and Peacebringers need love too. That leaves room for ONE redundant spot. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say that MOST people would like to see that spot filled by a second defender.
But I could be wrong.
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So, yeah, if you're remembering I3, there were some things that needed fixing. But what was done to tanks with the combination of I5 and ED, including aggro nerf, damage nerf, defense nerf and damres nerf, has swung the pendulum MUCH too far the other way.
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They dont get what were trying to say. Your wasting your time. Tanks are balanced they are right.
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I would LOVE to see the fitness pool become an inherent. LVL 6- you get hurdle, LVL 10- you get swift, LVL 14- you get health, LVL 20- you get Stamina, all of these powers scale to your lvl.
[/ QUOTE ] I would love to see fitness become a inherent as well this is a smart idea if you think about it, fitness is natural and not really a super power plus this opens another pool power slot.
End drain, from what Ive seen so far tanks and blasters burn too much endurance way too fast unless you slot endurance cost reduction which takes up too much room (at least 4) on your slots. Now I would not want to slot endurance cost reduction early on in the game the powers miss enough already, I can see maybe slotting endurance cost reduction at lvl 35+ only because you get 3 slots at a time, but as things are right now you have to pick your poison when starting out in the lower levels, no end or miss a lot.
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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
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That helps but some of my characters notice the pinch even more after ED with out stamina 6 slotted or Conserve power six slotted as well. Even with END reductions in all my attack powers its more noticeable than before. I would carry more blues to cover the gap but universally i need to carry more greens because I take more damage and the amount I dish out is lower. Granted with recharges DPS might be able to stay the same but when I need to put down that one hard mob and it takes 4 of my attack chain instead of say 3 (it used to) its noticeable. END and incoming damage wise.
Just my two cents after many months of testing.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
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That helps but some of my characters notice the pinch even more after ED with out stamina 6 slotted or Conserve power six slotted as well. Even with END reductions in all my attack powers its more noticeable than before. I would carry more blues to cover the gap but universally i need to carry more greens because I take more damage and the amount I dish out is lower. Granted with recharges DPS might be able to stay the same but when I need to put down that one hard mob and it takes 4 of my attack chain instead of say 3 (it used to) its noticeable. END and incoming damage wise.
Just my two cents after many months of testing.
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I'll have to chime in, Conserve Power just isn't up enough to even think about doing without Stamina.
While I think that ED was pretty good for the most part, some powers (with really long recharges) need a bit of tweaking to be useful again.
Still here, even after all this time!
Scion... if 1 tank can can tank for an 8 man spawn.. should 1 Controller be able to control an 8 man spawn? Should 1 Blaster be able to pump out enough damage to blast an 8 man spawn? Should 1 scrapper be able to scrap down an 8 man spawn? Should 1 defender be able to protect an entire team from an 8 person spawn's damage?
This thing is about Stamina beeing nerfed with ED right? What about travel powers?
We got a nice end discount but what about the other things that were just nerfed for no apparent reason. If there actually is a reason for me needing to travel slower plz enlighten me. There might be other things like travel powers but i can't think of any.
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This thing is about Stamina beeing nerfed with ED right? What about travel powers?
We got a nice end discount but what about the other things that were just nerfed for no apparent reason. If there actually is a reason for me needing to travel slower plz enlighten me. There might be other things like travel powers but i can't think of any.
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Which travel powers were slowed? Flight required 3 SOs to hit its speed cap before and after ED. The others, excluding TP, hit speed cap with one or two SOs for jump or run-speed. Hover is the only thing I can think of that needs a speed-boost. With 6 SOs it was pretty fast, and definitely useful, but now, with 3 SOs being pretty much the max, it's painfully slow with those 3 SOs.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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He just can't tank the dmg at all. 2 Shields with a total of 6 dmg resists between them just can't cut it in PVP or PVE. Thats a FACT.
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u obviously arent well versed on the fire tank build. no combat jumping, acro, weave, or tough, and u WILL suck. fire tanks need the extra pools, but once we have em we become the invicible bastards that tank 17+3 mobs. u just need to make room ;-)
if ur on infinity, allow me to show u a real fire tank sometime. Medicine-less
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Scion... if 1 tank can can tank for an 8 man spawn.. should 1 Controller be able to control an 8 man spawn? Should 1 Blaster be able to pump out enough damage to blast an 8 man spawn? Should 1 scrapper be able to scrap down an 8 man spawn? Should 1 defender be able to protect an entire team from an 8 person spawn's damage?
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For starters, yes, i do realize the question was not posed directly at me.
My answere would be that two of these AT's can handle spawns generated for an 8 man team. One blaster or one scrapper could take out an entire spawn. This is simply because, that means if a group had one scrapper and no blaster, their are 7 People holding aggro, locking down mobs and Healing. It may not be the most efficient use of time, but eventually everything would fall with little if any risk to the scrapper. I see a blaster being similiar.
So maybe youve hit a point. On a consistant and reliable basis Defenders couldnt heal/buff 7 other melee toons and controllers couldnt keep everything locked down if blasters are knocking baddies around everywhere.
Well, we could call for massive nerfs to Blasters/scrappers, but I would rather see my Controller and Defender friends given a little love.... and yes tankers could use a tweek... the combination of Damage/deff/resist/ED nerfs have swung them too far the other way.
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No one. That doesn't mean tanks are, either. A tank should be able to tank for an 8-man team, taking the aggro, and the damage, from a full spawn while his teammates do whatever it is that squishies do during that time.
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This is the crux of the matter right here.
There are only 5 different ATs, meaning that least three-slots of an 8-person team will have redundant ATs. Yet despite this, some people believe that a Tanker should be in the unique position where a *single* one can do their job (holding aggro and not dying) for a full team of 8, on Invincible, with *no help* from the other 7 members of the team.
That seems irrational.
One controller cannot lock down a full team spawn on Invincible.
One defender cannot heal 7 people fast enough to recover all of the damage caused by a full team spawn on Invincible.
One scrapper or blaster couldn't take down a full team spawn on Invincible with no heals or other support.
Why should One single tank be able to hold aggro with no buffing for a full team spawn on Invincible?