This is a reasonable method of addressing the silly endurance cost issues that the game currently has, but it's hardly something that "comes with" Enhancement Diversification, which also in no way diversifies enhancements.
You guys are having some trouble with your lexicon.
It's a nice gesture, but honestly, ED essentially forces the use of Endurance Reduction enhancements, so this really doesn't help.
I was gonna post this in the Enh Div thread but it was locked without notice. I apologize for the length and that it is 'off-topic'
Some of the issues that I see with the Enh slotting penalty system:
1) Defender's base damage was reduced a long time ago because some Defenders were outdamaging Blasters, notably Rad, but potentially Kin and now maybe even Dark. However, with this change, 3 slotted Damage for a Defender will be equivalent to a 1 slotted Blaster. If a Defender cannot expect to receive much of a benefit for the additional slotting of Damage in an attack, then the Base Damage for a Defender should be restored to 75% instead of 66%; alternatively, an appropriate base number should be determined.
2) There are a little more than 630 powers in CoH. 22 of the powers (excluding Warshades and Peacbringers) are Auto powers. These powers use 1 enhancement type (e.g. Defense, Damage Resistance, Endurance, Health, Run Speed, Jump, and Recharge Reduction). These powers are unnecessarily penalized since there is no possibility for diversifying the enhancement choices. It is by design. Consider giving Auto powers some secondary bonus (e.g. Def and Dam Res, Health and End, Jump Height and Run Speed, Rec Red and Acc) so they can be diversified.
3) It seems you are moving everyone back to the trend of City of Lethargic Heroes. It has always frustrated me some that to create a good attack chain seemed to require Perma-Hasten. Quite a few powers had their recharge times increased (notably final attacks such as Blaster Primaries/Defender Secondaries, Unstoppable, Moment of Glory, Elude, Recovery Aura/Regeneration Aura, Controller AoE holds, etc.). Please reset recharge times to their I1 or I2 levels, since you have made a concerted effort to penalize players that rely on recharge times to attack or contribute to a team; alternatively, re-evaluate every recharge time that is in excess of 2 minutes to determine an appropriate recharge time with the Enh Div change in mind.
4) Recharge Reduction and Reduce Interrupt Time work very differently from almost every other type of enhancement in the game. Most enhancements used to be calculated by multiplying the base effectiveness of the power by the percentage increase of the enhancement; i.e. If the base damage is 10, 1 damage SO (33.33% increase) is calculated by 10*1.3333 or 13.33 as the end result. On the other hand, powers that affect the recharge time are calculated by dividing; i.e. If the base recharge is 10, 1 recharge reduction SO (33.33% reduction) is calculated by 10/1+.3333=7.5. The main difference is that there is already a system of diminishing returns built into Rec Reduction. Change Rec Reduction to follow the Schedule C just like Reduce Interrupt; alternatively, reevaluate penalizing Recharge Reduction and Reduce Interrupt at all and just leaving them out of the penalty calculations for enhancements.
5) Allow players to combine SOs just like HOs are combined, to create multifunctional enhancements; alternatively, make the secondary effects of some powers meaningful. E.g. Disorient Duration, To Hit Debuff, Range, Defense Buff, Damage Resistance Buff. Some of these powers were reset (and claimed to have been internally tested with the I5 changes). One of the reasons that there is little enhancement diversification in the first place is because slotting anything to improve a base effectiveness of 1-14% seems almost completely useless in the scheme of things. It was better to have the additional 33.33% damage then the additional .5% or 2% buff of something else, particularly because Damage is the great equalizer in the game.
6) Change the enemy AI. The Enh Div does nothing to make the fights more interesting, more fun, more interactive, require much more thought, etc. There might be more defeats because are heroes are wearing Kryptonite spandex now, there might be longer fights, but they will look the same. Cluster of enemies, engage, enemies approach melee, fight up close, defeat, move on. The fights have continued to lack any sense of maneuvers, tactics, or positioning to be very effective, beyond the most rudimentary things (like making sure you had enough end to engage, that critical powers for the fight were recharged, that people positioned for cones, or that the team knew what the basic method of attack was (e.g. Snipe pull, Tanker aggro, Controller rush, Defender debuff, Pet drop, etc.). Those methods will still work, and the enemy AI will remain the same. That is a tragedy, because the lack of an entertaining fight encounter in a game that is centered almost exclusively around combat, just begs the question as to why this is not a priority.
7) Give us the numbers! In particular, a table that has as its columns, TO, DO, SO for each schedule and as its rows every point at which a percentage reduction occurs (e.g. when does 99% get reduced and is it a flat amount like:
Enht | 05.00 08.35 10.00 16.66 20.00 30.00 33.33 40.00 60.00
__________________________________________________ _______
0-90 | 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
100% |-1.00 -1.10 -1.40 -1.60 -1.75 -3.00 -5.00 -6.00 -7.10
120% |................................................. ....
140% |
160% |
180% |
200% |................................................. ....
and fill it in with accurate numbers instead of the bogus ones I put in here, etc.
OK, I guess we could determine on our own accord once it goes on test without violating the CoV NDA by testing there and posting here. It already seems that the CuppaJo post indicates that instead of getting 3*33.33% benefit (99.99%) you will only get 94% (is that exact or is it 94.99 or 93.99%?), but for some reason using DOs you could get 95% instead of 99.99%. Why the discrepancy? In the past, we have had infrequent but much appreciated posting of numbers, particularly those that are broad sweeping changes (my favorite was when Positron posted the xp changes in table format).
8) This will affect nearly every build guide and will affect every hero planner that has been designed. Such a system begs for actual numbers for buffs to be given. Please provide actual stats for powers, or have a company like Prima publish actual stats for all enhancement types that each power can be slotted with. The old Prima guide, which is now hopelessly outdated and the new PDF manual that was hopelessly outdated within a month of it being released to the public cannot fill the void. We are being forced to make many uninformed decisions. Another good reason for the lack of enhancement diversification was that people could not detect bonuses for slotting and had no stats to back up whether it would be worth it to slot ancillary enhancements, so they ignored those enhancements in favor of ones that worked and/or produced cognizable results, like Damage and Accuracy.
9) You are forcing us into City of Mathematically Min/Maxing Builds. I think in the smoky back rooms where these nerf negotiations occur, the developers have in the back of their mind something like: We want players to be less cookie cutter, how can we accomplish that. Or, the game is getting too easy, even Defenders and Controller can solo now and Scrappers never die, what can we change to make the game harder (even though enemy AI never seems to make the priority list there). Because these changes add further complexity to the enhancement system with no additional control (e.g. rather than giving us the ability to 10 slot some powers or combine enhancements, we are only faced with further limitations), players will have to seek out those that do the hard work behind the scenes to min/max and will try to replicate them. This method takes a while, and those that read the forums again become the Haves that will make good choices and the rest of the community is the Have Nots that have to rely on trickle down information about good build and design choices that are useful.
10) There seems to be no point in having Schedule D enhancements. Remove the Schedule D classification and make Knockback Schedule A or B/ Knockback is almost universally reviled in team settings and this enhancement does not increase Change to Knockback it increases Knockback Distance. You cannot Knockback a villain beyond their return fire range distance, and it's my understanding tha tno Knockback power is so small unenhanced that they remain within melee distance once knocked back. So why give such an inordinate bonus to such an unloved enhancement (unless it is to make it less reviled, which it would not unless you are a compulsive solo player).
11) Travel powers (Hover/Fly/Teleport) seem to be hit harder than other Travel powers which are good "out of the box". Exempt Travel powers and pool powers that have travel effects from the Enh Div changes; alternatively, increase the base flight speed of Hover and Fly and the base range of Teleport. The only way Hover is useful if you do not have Power Boost is by multislotting it with Flight Speed. I have 4-5 slotted Hover on a couple heros and it's nice, but will now be slower yet again.
12) Builds that are defense oriented, despite a plethora of complaints about the discrepancy between scaling Def and unscaling Dam Res, are once again kicked in the face (and can't dodge it). An SR scrapper has 3 Autos that only take Defense (last I checked, I deleted my SR a long time ago).
13) Consider implementing something in game that helps players cope with these changes. Such as indicating when penalties kick in when people are trying to add slots, warning messages before slotting, enhancement calculators in game at trainers or stores, etc. Find ways to help players make informed decisions.
14) Also, don't forget you all encouraged, damn near demanded that we did not diversify enhancements. By selling only 'Power-10' enhancements at stores and making enh drops so useless in the game experience, you required us to go Acc, Dam, Rec Red, End Red, Def, Dam Res. It wasn't our fault, it was your design that made us do that. Try relying on drops for Recovery Increase, To Hit Buff, Range Increase DOs or SOs. You'd be wasting your time. Until around 30-35 (depending on whether you tweak your heroes, have people pass you DOs/SOs, etc.) you are quite limited in what you can purchase. The goal it seemed was to have you using secondary effect TOs when you could get power 10 DOs and secondary effect DOs when you could get SOs, but since the secondary effects are nigh negligble, it was a WASTE of time to get TO/DOs of things like To Hit Debuff, Range Increase, etc. Change the store model so they sell all enhancements of their type(s) and do the same with contacts at all level ranges; also, consider making drops more customized to your build (so that the game tries to give you a higher percentage of drops that occur in your powersets and pool powers or at maybe just the powers that you have chosen. I.e. you would get more Defense SO drops if you have Def powers and a very low chance of getting Range enhancements if you have no powers that accept Range.
So, in summary, please look at previous changes made to Damage, Recharge, Endurance Cost, Def, and Damage Resistance for other powers before making this change. Consider Auto powers in the equation. Think of ways to diversify slotting in ways that don't penalize players. Please post the numbers for the enhancement penalties so we can make informed decisions.
As for other thoughts, this will allow most players to 3-4 slot each and every power, and heavily discourages them from 5-6 slotting some of their powers. The addition of 1 recharge reduction and 1 endurance discount (or secondary effect enhancement) into some powers won't add diversity to the gaming experience, but might at least counteract the neutering of single enhancement powers like Hasten, Health, and Stamina. The change can be somewhat liberating at the same time it constricts the vitality out of the game. Whereas before many players stressed about finding enough slots to fill powers, now it is likely people will be unsure and make uninformed and uneducated decisions as to where those slots should now go since the penalties of diminishing returns are so severe for 5-6 slotting some powers that only benefitted from being 5-6 slotted with the same powers. It's not doom and gloom, it's just a tragedy that it took so long, that it's being done so heavy handed and without informed consent. As usual, many users might have chosen not to continue their subscriptions had they known this change was being implemented behind the scenes. I might even like the change if I can find a good hero builder that lets me make informed decisions, since relying on a strategy guide or CoH manual is a waste of time.
Please let this be the last massive game-breaking, mold destroying, archetype rebalancing feature in the game. PvP nerfs almost wrecked me the first time. Random snipe attacks on powers and powersets were further disheartening. The continuing reduction of fun for non-buff bot defenders and the continued effectiveness of controller buffs over defenders still has me questioning why Defenders are considered the epitome to balance around, I still think they should be balanced up. Really, anymore massive changes and it might just take away any confidence I have left that the development team is still in touch with the player experience. Respeccing every 1-2 months is not fun. Some people have probably spent a considerable amount of time in the last year and a half just trying to overcome the non-game challenges the dev team keeps throwing our way. Give us a real out of combat system, not the Sisyphean task of continuous respeccing.
It's obvious that CoH is being reduced to match CoV.
I don't know why people don't seem to be realising that. If you want to know what is next in store for CoH,or how CoH is ultimately going to play ask someone in CoV Beta how that plays, and that's exactly what we are going to have with CoH.
Our game WAS changed to match CoV. There's no question about it.
-Jentia Argool(Bostic)
Freedom Server
Spines/Regen I5 Guide!
SG:-Civic Alliance
Jentia Argool (41)- Spines/Regen Scrapper
Justice Server - Jab Molassie (14) En/Ela Brute
Devil Mas(11) Dk/Dk Brute
Hechler Glocklan (20) Th/Dk MM
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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ha, well how about a 20% increase in damage accross the boards as well? Or a 13.33% increase in accuracy? How about a 20% decrease to recharge times across the boards also?!? That might help to stev off the fact that your nuking our abilities! Sure, the end rdx is a start, but you'd better dig a little deeper into other things as well, such as the MAJOR damage reduction your doing to Blasters (thier only defense) and the MAJOR defense reduction your doing for Scrappers and Tankers (thier sole means of survival). You guys used to say that you didn't want to "force" coh players to have to group for survival, that's turning out to be a bald faced lie....
End cost? Meh, it's a start, a good start, but it's not the "band aid" you guys are needing right now, not even close. You guys are going to lose alot of people, and many of whom have been advent board members and CoH buffs since release. Don't make that mistake.
Later.
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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
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The least they could have done is given us some sort of carrot with this.
Couple of things didn't get posted. We're cutting Endurance costs by 12% across the board (to ameliorate the effect that Enhancement Diversification has on Stamina). We're also cutting the Debt cap in 1/2 . Yep. In half.
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A 12-13% % endurance reduction across the board for all powers?! Sweet!
Waaaaiiit a second... Awww man, how am I going to diversify now that I won't need endurance reduction SOs? This is limiting me MORE... not diversifying me!
-River
Well, I'm sure what I'm going to say has been echoed already, Posi.
First, thanks for throwing that little bone to us. Not meant insultingly, but every tiny bit of good news (after how many thousand posts) helps. And my SR scrapper, if she's still viable after this, can use it.
But please, tell us - are *other* values being adjusted? How about my damage? Or, conversely, the mobs' damage and accuracy - are they being revised again? You can't honestly lower *those* again without making mobs essentially a joke, turning the game into "City of who needs heroes, these guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn."
Or the one honestly more near and dear to my heart - how are my teams going to live, literally, with the reduction in healing and buffs from my emps? I've managed many times to just "maintain" someone - five slotted (1 end, 5 heal) - who's taking massive amounts of incoming damage from a bad pull long enough for the rest of the team to take down a couple of mobs and allow us to pull ahead. Why? 5 heal. Hasten (not permad, as my EMP set and other team support gets priority.)
Yes, I know I can three slot with "little" penalty, or four slot with "a bit more" of a penalty, and drop a recharge redux in there. But for my emps, ANY reduction is a great penalty - the penalty not being in your spreadsheet.
That penalty is the death of teammates. Knowing I won't be able to heal like I could, buff like I could. Yes, as an emp, I take that personally, because keeping them up and fighting is *my* job. I know many tanks that are... let's just say obsessed with "ANY damage the team takes is MY (the tank's) fault." My emps have the same attitude, frankly - unless a player suffers from "Hey y'all, watch this!" syndrome, I take deaths personally.
You're giving everyone an END discount. Great, thank you. Honestly. It'll make part of my job easier. And i'm sure I'm going to see more use out of Vigilance now. Which I don't consider a good thing, since it means my emps are *failing* in their job.
It also means they're going to full six-slotted heal, since *every* tenth of a percent of health, of regen or recovery, is now more precious than gold to them. Sort of the opposite of the way we're 'supposed' to be slotting with ED now, isn't it?
The broadsword/SR scrapper I also love playing thanks you, as I think I mentioned. My kin/dark, not yet 20, thanks you. They were having end problems, and I was going to try to avoid stamina. The scrapper just hopes she lives long enough to enjoy another attack or two before her end runs out, since her defenses are being gutted again.
I don't know about my forum name's namesake, my first toon, still only lvl 17. I don't play him much. He's a fire tank. Nice guy, if you ever meet him. Really takes the team seriously. Their lives are more important to him than his own... but he'd like to know what's happening to his defenses. Can't really fight, mind you. Has an attack or two, but he's there to take hits, to keep the bad guys focused on him as that delicate blaster knocks down their life, as the scrapper takes them down, as the defender does their part to make the bad guys jobs a bit more difficult...
The end discount is nice. Thanks. That flame shield, plasma shield, whatever he needs to run for this group of bad guys can stay up a bit longer... now what about helping him do the rest of his job?
Tell us there's more *good* news. Please.
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Because they're frantically attempting to cool down a runaway reactor before it melts down?
Sorry ... this "token buff" is like they're wizzing in their pants in a dark room ... it may give them a warm feeling but nobody will notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quick! We must let Major Richard Flagg, Captain James Harlan, and Jane Hallaway know about this! They can get the right people in place to stop the reactor!
Let's Dance!
I'm with the others, Positron. You and Statesman are completely off your rockers. I'm under the impression now, more than ever, that both of you frown upon the usefulness of Tanks, especially the Invulnerability ones.
First came the Global Defense Nerf. This made Tanker Resistances much less valuable to a Tanker's survivability, and his or her reliance on +Def to stay alive. This hit Invulnerability hard because Inv has four passive powers that grant +Res. These powers would have to be six slotted with +DamRes in order to be MARGINALLY effective. Second comes this Enhancement Diversification. Now the 6-slotted passives are worth even less to the Inv Tank's survivability. This does not help my tank stay alive. This does not help my team stay alive. This helps absolutely nobody.
Everyone gets nerfed this time: The Global Defense Nerf was to make sure +Def and +Res sets couldn't do much by themselves. The Enhancement Diversification hits all the other classes AND those "balanced" by the GDN.
My poor Tank.. He's slowly becoming less and less fun to play, because his effectiveness is being reduced time after time.
I was skeptical at first to the others who say the Developers aren't playing the same game we are. I'm starting to believe the players are right. If you're going to screw me over with the Enhancement Diversification, give me my Resistances back!
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
... thus making the End reduction enhancers that we're being FORCED to use even LESS worth-while.
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Isn't this akin to offering a free toaster with every gunshot wound
[/ QUOTE ]
More like free salt to shake right in the wound.
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for throwing us a bone, but how about a recharge reduction since so many powers are based on the amount of time it takes for them to recharge with the soon-to-be-non-existent perma-hasten?
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
While I appreciate this, it doesn't really make a lot of sense for two reasons:
1) You wanted to encourage us to slot endurance reducers.
2) The problem with the ED system is how it cuts the potential Res and Def powers in the defensive sets by another 1/3 after I5, because they have no other real slotting options.
What you need to do, to make ED palatable, is raise base Def and Resistance values. Heal powers can choose to slot recharges instead, but Def and Resistance powers have no other options, aside from Endurance reduction, which doesn't help defensively.
This doesn't matter to me so much, aside from the not-so-logical nature of this proposed tradeoff confirming my decision, as I have cancelled my pre-order, and shut off the auto-payment on my account. I'm going to keep playing for the rest of the month, to finish up some TFs with my friends that I haven't done.
This isn't an "I'll quit" threat. I effectively already have, and I doubt you really care about whether or not this one player that loved your game sticks around or not. I'm not quitting over this one thing either, just the general design methods (but not goals) that you've had the last several months. I'll look back every couple of months to see if you guys have changed your design methods and added any content that interests me.
I'm sorry it came to this. I loved this game, and I still love its potential. It will always be the game that made me realize that I loved the superhero genre, and that MMOs can break the mold and be about fun gameplay instead of getting stuff and gaining levels, if they want to.
Good luck.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Too damn little, too damn late.
25% base increase to damage
25% base decrease to end cost
25% base decrease to end cost
Anything less means that you've crippled us, and even that's still weakening us. Kiss 1/3 your playerbase goodbye.
for the love of god leave us alone devs
I mean u make trollers dmg dealers and tanks just big guys who die alot and blasters a bunch of suicidal dmg junkies
Why dont u leave well enough alone
good fix for the problems ED created with endurance. Now fix every other problem ED has created, and you will have undone the mess.
Super. But you know whats a 100% endurance saver? A cancelled account.
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, vigilance is now more pointless. Good job. Add a recharge rate enhancement to vigilance so it serves a point on sets that don't suffer from endurance as it is. Trick Arrow needs help damnit!
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Positron: Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
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Statesman: We're cutting Endurance costs by 12% across the board (to ameliorate the effect that Enhancement Diversification has on Stamina).
[/ QUOTE ]
And Statesman's nerfing the endurance reduction bonus already!
Woot!
-River
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Positron, but you've really done nothing more than simply throw us a bone. The main issue isnt endurance, since part of the 'diversifying' will be using end reducers in our powers. It's the fact that the sets that rely on defense and damage resistance have taken yet another sore beating by the nerf bat that you guys continue to wield. So when we see a corresponding increase in defense, damage resistance, as well as a reduction in the ridiculously long recharge times of a lot of powers as a result of the I5 nerf, and a base increase in damage, then this idea of 'enhancement diversification' will be moving in the right direction.
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this akin to offering a free toaster with every gunshot wound? It doesn't really take the sting out of something being forced on you against any illusion of free will you might have...
[/ QUOTE ]
How is this forced upon you? You can still 6 slot your powers with the same type, the bonus for doing so just got reduced....
Positron...I for one like the change...I tended to do this anyway...the only ones that are hurt are the min/maxers..who complain anyway after they chew up the content...Go Cryptic!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, vigilance is now more pointless. Good job. Add a recharge rate enhancement to vigilance so it serves a point on sets that don't suffer from endurance as it is. Trick Arrow needs help damnit!
[/ QUOTE ]
without permahasten I'd laugh a trick arrow guy off my team concern. no offense. 
[ QUOTE ]
for the love of god leave us alone devs
I mean u make trollers dmg dealers and tanks just big guys who die alot and blasters a bunch of suicidal dmg junkies
Why dont u leave well enough alone
[/ QUOTE ]
best.post.ever...
you forgot. defenders are now vampiric vultures feeding off the pain of their friends.
So why am I supposed to slot endurance reduction then?
How does this helps my defence?
Oh wait I don't have slot for endux!
Oh wait I don't do that already!
Guess I lose.
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great cause when you lower my defenses even further what I really need is more endurance......so im not tired when they beat the pulp out of me.......how bout you give me more hit points instead and well call it 'im not walking away quiet yet'? whats that? statesman got your balls? come on posi...yur better than this.
[ QUOTE ]
With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.
Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a strange number. How did you come up with this particular figure?
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