City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Dear Devs, can you PLEASE throw us a bone here?

Agent White

By Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-09-25 23:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
There's plenty of reason to be happy and to have hope. We should be happy CoH had such a good run. Eight years for a MMO is amazing. It knocked down two younger potential competitors effortlessly and the developers maintained an enviable level of support and commitment even in the bad times. We should have hope because no matter what, life after CoH goes on. One chapter ending just means another begins. Maybe the former CoH developers will reform to give the super hero MMO another shot. Maybe members of the community will. Maybe someone else entirely.
Since you're not at all reading what I'm actually telling you, I'll just drop this here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
One chapter ending just means another begins. Maybe the former CoH developers will reform to give the super hero MMO another shot. Maybe members of the community will. Maybe someone else entirely.


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See, i guess that is where we diverge. Coh was not, even at its strongest a massive publisher drawing hit, it was solid and dependable and had quirks that endeared it to a modest but devoted core of fans. it was a niche. other attempts to go into that niche gained little traction and did (supposedly) poorly with co and dcou.

Call me crazy, but I'm less than hopeful that a publisher would step up in the current gaming environment and give a reformed paragon studios the time and needed cash to make a competitive superhero themed mmo. Nor do I think that a portion of the fanbase old follow to a new game. For all the talk of loyalty, a lot of the fanbase was intensely particular about features in coh, and i suspect even slight changes that may well be improvements from a technical perspective wouldnt drive off a lot of players who want "their" characters back, unchanged and as they wanted them.

I know getting ncsoft to give whatever paragon employees rallied behind brian clayton is a very long shot, but for me, the pieces of your scenario are a lot more tenuous. Avengers notwithstanding (and that had a lot of external things that helped it do as well as it has) I just dont see a huge hunger in the general gaming community for superheros, And the coh community can be fantastically brittle when change happens, so this is the area where I have to be the pessimist about your "spiritual successor" scenario.

 

Posted

The reason CoH was always such a niche game, I believe, is because it went almost completely unadvertised. We used to give Black Pebble and the marketing department a lot of flak, but in hindsight, one has to wonder just how much they had to work with in the first place. Hell, we all but celebrated every time CoH was namedropped in mass media.

 

Posted

I never bought that excuse. Coh was heavily advertised at launch in areas that were cost effective and appropriate for gamers who would be into a superhero game, and following architect and gr it was heavily advertised again. It also got a lot of positive buzz from the major game magazines and had a favorable review from x-play.

Now there weren't tv ads, but those are very expensive and there is no evidence that they actually expand awareness that much.

One thing I have found time and again in gaming is that really fantastic stuff gets overlooked because it is different...well, coh was different. and that seemed to work to our detriment.

 

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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon View Post
I understand not wanting to rely on a 2nd hand source for info, but I don't see how her profession should be an issue. Authors are inherently untrustworthy? Really?
Don't you get it? Fiction is just another word for lies. Authors are professional liars. You can't trust them!

/tinfoil

Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinch View Post
The reason CoH was always such a niche game, I believe, is because it went almost completely unadvertised. We used to give Black Pebble and the marketing department a lot of flak, but in hindsight, one has to wonder just how much they had to work with in the first place. Hell, we all but celebrated every time CoH was namedropped in mass media.
Black Pebble already said (in this farewell thread where he started taking questions concerning marketing) that he was the *only* person dealing with marketing. That he didn't have legions of people backing him up.

Someone suggested giving some of the responsiblity over to the players.

Well... the thing is, the *players* shouldn't need telling to spread the word about the game. Hell, even with G+, Facebook, Twitter (ie the social side of the internet world), people just were not talking much about City of Heroes. Apart from on the official pages.

Which is good in a fashion, but it is still closed.

Now, we are looking at the #SAVECOH phenomenon, and how that is spreading.

Why on earth were we *not* doing something like that among ourselves and the people that we know, and the followers that we have before the fit hit the shan?

Laziness?
Fear of social media sites?

All of the above?

Eve Online has a *very* active #tweetfleet tag on twitter. It is handy and fun to follow (and some interesting news spreads among that hashtag), but it is still something that was embraced by the players of that game.

*shrugs*

Sure, you might not like Eve Online, but they (and the players) seem to have had a handle on how twitter can be used to get an online presence out there.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
Heh. This community as a whole has never done well with dev silence!
Haha, yeah.

And perhaps Alpha Wolf was pointing at VV as she is a trustworthy source with insider knowledge? I don't know, but I know Mercedes Lackey/VV has said she's had early contact with War Witch after disaster struck, and I think she's said she knows Brian Clayton as well. I don't think too many here can claim that. I know I can't. And there's probably a gag order on VV as well regarding some things, even if she does know things.

But there are still ongoing talks, and I *do* know that it took a couple YEARS for Hellgate London to be resurrected, A.P.B. was down for months before it came back, too, and Fallout and Gods & Heroes have been rezzed over time (I think G & H took multiple years, actually). And for that matter, Saga of Ryzom's original devs went bust back shortly after it launched, and it was rezzed later on too.

It can happen. It may not be within the timetable we'd like to see, or with some or most of the PS team intact, but it could still happen. Let's face it, we're already expecting possible complete wipes on the slim hope that anyone at all can pick it up later.....

 

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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Especially since, given the track record, NCSoft would rather let their IP rot than let someone else at it.
Sure, but the only track record to go by is of games that were dying, and everyone knew it. CoH was doing okay so the situation is different. The IP actually has significant value right this minute, which will steadily decline over time. It will never be worth as much to a potential buyer as it is right now.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Sure, but the only track record to go by is of games that were dying, and everyone knew it. CoH was doing okay so the situation is different.
I'll bet that's what the people who played those games thought too.



.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Having your news depend on someone who's job it is to imagine fantastical stories doesn't strike me as the best idea.
Aside from having great respect for the author in question (and her integrity), all I have to say is that you are an idiot.

No, wait, I do have more to say.

She has a closer relationship with the developers (past and present) than you'll ever have and I'll trust her when she is saying that talks are ongoing still.



Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
Heh. This community as a whole has never done well with dev silence!
Well, that and the general internet has an attention span that makes a hummingbird seem like some ancient master in a cave.


Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan View Post
Heh. This community as a whole has never done well with dev silence!
Hahaha, we're so not used to it!!
Best Dev and Community Team ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Well, that and the general internet has an attention span that makes a hummingbird seem like some ancient master in a cave.
d00d bleave wat u want 2 bleave but hmmingbrds arnt that fast

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Having your news depend on someone who's job it is to imagine fantastical stories doesn't strike me as the best idea.
As an aspiring author who has actually been trying to get stuff published, I take severe umbrage with the insinuation that writers are liars.

Do us all and the world a favor and go stick your head into a wood chipper.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
As an aspiring author who has actually been trying to get stuff published, I take severe umbrage with the insinuation that writers are liars.

Do us all and the world a favor and go stick your head into a wood chipper.
Hmm... If you're an aspiring author, then how do we know that you're not just lying?
And, if you are lying... You might be lying about being an aspiring author... therefore, we can trust you.



(just trying to share some laughs)

@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Having your news depend on someone who's job it is to imagine fantastical stories doesn't strike me as the best idea.
Normally I'd not dignify this with a response, but in this case--being the long-time lurker that I was and being familiar with your posts--I think you actually mean what you typed here. How many authors and other types of content developers would you imagine played, contributed to and loved City of Heroes/Villains over the years? I'd imagine a lot.

Here's a tip: former Paragon Studios employees who are now directly out of the loop are eagerly watching Mercedes's posts for new information. The reason isn't because they've all suddenly turned stupid. Context clues, Johnny. Context.

So, do yourself a favor. Think about what you're typing before you type. Because you just managed to insult two broad groups of people (every professional writer, and every former staff member of Paragon Studios, including the Lead Producer who is still communicating with Mercedes and NCSoft) in one fell swoop.

Good job pissing all over your own respect and credibility, but I don't think that is what you were trying to accomplish here.

@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Having your news depend on someone who's job it is to imagine fantastical stories doesn't strike me as the best idea.

To the OP: there are no more "Devs" left; officially, nobody is developing anything CoH related anymore.



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I support this message. I was going to say just about the same thing. No offense to M.L. or authors of course. I'd just like to be getting official information. And the only one that can truly give that would be NCSoft in my book.

Please buff Ice Control.

 

Posted

They can't, unless they want to kiss all future employment opportunities in this industry goodbye. The fact is, devs THEMSELVES have pointed to Mercedes as the next best thing and the ONLY thing we've got in the way of news.

When things get tough you work with what you've got and hopefully learn to be grateful for it. And I'm grateful for Mercedes Lackey.

Lackey has also openly, publicly made statements about how devastating this has been for her and how her involvement has created more stress for her, not less; and yet she has continued to stay involved and go to bat for us. I don't personally know Mrs. Lackey, but when I see people slamming her for CONTINUING to do what other people in her shoes may have quit doing by now (feeding news to an ungrateful audience despite having Paragon's trust), it only makes me respect her more and more.

At least she has plenty of support on the Titan forums, where people are apparently not living under a rock for the past three weeks.

@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH

 

Posted

QFT!

Take the news of "negotiations are ongoing" to mean just that...it is a good sign that NCSoft did not bother with negotiations and flat out said "No!"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
They can't, unless they want to kiss all future employment opportunities in this industry goodbye. The fact is, devs THEMSELVES have pointed to Mercedes as the next best thing and the ONLY thing we've got in the way of news.

When things get tough you work with what you've got and hopefully learn to be grateful for it. And I'm grateful for Mercedes Lackey.

Lackey has also openly, publicly made statements about how devastating this has been for her and how her involvement has created more stress for her, not less; and yet she has continued to stay involved and go to bat for us. I don't personally know Mrs. Lackey, but when I see people slamming her for CONTINUING to do what other people in her shoes may have quit doing by now (feeding news to an ungrateful audience despite having Paragon's trust), it only makes me respect her more and more.

At least she has plenty of support on the Titan forums, where people are apparently not living under a rock for the past three weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladiamors View Post
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
They can't, unless they want to kiss all future employment opportunities in this industry goodbye. The fact is, devs THEMSELVES have pointed to Mercedes as the next best thing and the ONLY thing we've got in the way of news.

When things get tough you work with what you've got and hopefully learn to be grateful for it. And I'm grateful for Mercedes Lackey.

Lackey has also openly, publicly made statements about how devastating this has been for her and how her involvement has created more stress for her, not less; and yet she has continued to stay involved and go to bat for us. I don't personally know Mrs. Lackey, but when I see people slamming her for CONTINUING to do what other people in her shoes may have quit doing by now (feeding news to an ungrateful audience despite having Paragon's trust), it only makes me respect her more and more.

At least she has plenty of support on the Titan forums, where people are apparently not living under a rock for the past three weeks.
Unfortunately my opinion of her has declined since her initial announcement of offering her services to NCsoft.

Couple of reasons, but as the common saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"

1) She has stated that in the initial announcement of the shuttering of City of Heroes, the forums would be going down September 1st (link to post when discussing Zwill's announcement of his depature from Paragon Studios)

Quote:
" I've made the decision to spend some time focusing on family and the job hunt, mostly family"

For those of you unfamiliar with the business and political world, this is company-mandated-speak for "I've been fired."

I have the distinct impression from this that NCSoft decided that rather than squashing us as ordered, he was encouraging us as much as he could without doing so in a way that was so overt they could smack him with something punitive.

Please remember the initial announcement was that the boards would be closing Sept 1. We made enough fuss they kept the boards open and gave Andy another 3 weeks worth of paychecks. However I expect the boards to be closed soon.

Probably we'd better post to all threads to remind people to come here.
2) That apparently the game was making $800K/month *profit* (this has been brought up on this board as well as the Titan Network forums).

Now, this one is interesting, because there are several people on the boards who have used the information from NCsofts financials to back up their arguments (both pro and against NCsoft/Paragon Studios/City of Heroes) in the past. For her statement to be correct, it means that we (the playerbase) have been reading the information in these reports incorrectly. Which in my mind is *highly* improbable.

Sure, she might have meant $800K/quarter (or even per year) but that is still a far cry from $800K/month profit, which is still the figure that she is sticking to, even when players provide evidence to the contrary.

She, however, will not supply any information/calculations/evidence to back up her claim.

So, long story short... i find her statements unbelievable until she starts backing up her claims.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
They can't, unless they want to kiss all future employment opportunities in this industry goodbye. The fact is, devs THEMSELVES have pointed to Mercedes as the next best thing and the ONLY thing we've got in the way of news.

When things get tough you work with what you've got and hopefully learn to be grateful for it. And I'm grateful for Mercedes Lackey.

Lackey has also openly, publicly made statements about how devastating this has been for her and how her involvement has created more stress for her, not less; and yet she has continued to stay involved and go to bat for us. I don't personally know Mrs. Lackey, but when I see people slamming her for CONTINUING to do what other people in her shoes may have quit doing by now (feeding news to an ungrateful audience despite having Paragon's trust), it only makes me respect her more and more.

At least she has plenty of support on the Titan forums, where people are apparently not living under a rock for the past three weeks.
Not trolling or anytthing I'm more serious than a gun in someone's face.

Who the heezies is Mercedes Lackey? Must be important to be the best chance we have?

And really I dont trust people just because someone else trust them. I trust them, because I trust them. There are some pretty powerful successful folks that trust Rick Perry but I and some other people wouldnt trust him with a rubberband.

-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
Not trolling or anytthing I'm more serious than a gun in someone's face.

Who the heezies is Mercedes Lackey? Must be important to be the best chance we have?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mercedes+lackey

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Sure, but the only track record to go by is of games that were dying, and everyone knew it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
I'll bet that's what the people who played those games thought too.
Only the stupid ones.

Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
if Im not mistaken, lmgtfy means Let ME Google That For You or something and I do not do anything that has anything to do with google. sorry not for me.

I'll go look her up though. brb.

-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!