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I doubt it. By the time Real Numbers was a twinkle in pohsyb's eye, the min/maxers had all the data they needed outside of the game to do that, and in fact Real Numbers didn't add very much to what we already knew and could know**.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
No offense to the people at Titan or the people that pushed for "real numbers", I think that that was one of the worst things added to the game because it popularized min/maxing even more.
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What it did do is allow me to slowly phase out of the role of giving the players data; City of Data basically put me out of that business by around Issue 18ish. And I was very happy to give that up.
Real Numbers has three components. The power and enhancement effects data displayed with info panels, the attribute display window, and the combat attribute panel. Info data we had outside the game, although Real Numbers made it easier to get it into a format we could maintain. The combat attribute panel is mainly useful for testing: it isn't really an effective min/max tool nor do I see how it could encourage players to min/max, separate from actually making them interested in the numbers in the first place, which I don't think you can really blame RN for. The combat attribute panel was the closest thing to a damage meter-like UI we had: we could see certain stats in real time conveniently while playing. But since it didn't show the kinds of real time information a min/maxer would want outside of Mids (like average DPS) I don't think it played a major role either.
What it *did* do was open the door to a whole new group of players that didn't really truly understand the game mechanics suddenly getting a much easier view of what was going on. Years after the entire matter was settled, mostly by me, wave after wave of new players that gained competency in the game were suddenly complaining about cascade defense failure, because they could now literally see it happen on screen numerically.
If RN had a negative impact, I think it was in actually convincing a lot of players they knew more about the game than they really did, because it distilled a lot of information that normally took a lot of effort to acquire, and a lot of collateral learning happened with that effort that now didn't need to happen, and as a result didn't happen.
All of this has a caveat that only a few players would fully appreciate. Its possible that if Real Numbers didn't happen, City of Data and Mids wouldn't have happened in the form they exist now. But that's a different topic.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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On the thread topic: Confessions
Back in the day of herding, I hated the idea of powergaming and farming, and herding. One thing I loved about the game was how we were able to knock enemies around, it made me feel strong. I also was running a tank, everyone expected me to herd for the team.
So... I do the most obvious thinig I was able to think of... I took Hand Clap and slotted it for recharge. My opening on every spawn was to jump in the center and handclap. 
Herders hated me, although I am not sure if they hated me as much as I hated them (at the time.)
Simlar lines: I got so angry about the knockback "nerf" (turning melee KB to KD) that I retired my Ice/Battle Axe tanker.
Second confession, although not as dramatic:
I loved the old Chun Li stile storm kick martial arts had. I had a martial arts scrapper called Shadowing in Triumph. I got so annoyed at the new animation I deleted the character. That is my biggest regret in this game, that was a frigging cool name that got snatched fast.
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I still want to know if the people who originally wrote the descriptions for things actually knew anything about the game. Mez protection powers still claim to offer Res. The difference between accuracy and tohit seems to be randomly interchangeable. And I still want to know why Radiation Blast was originally described as being able to bypass defense. It can't be because the writer confused that with debuffing defense, because it *also* says it debuffs defense, so "bypass defense" must have meant something else in the writer's mind.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah. Compare the name of recharge SOs and IOs. IIRC, SOs enhance "attack rate", while IOs enhance "recharge". Granted, if am recalling that correctly, IOs were probably the devs adopting player terminology.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
My confession, I routinely fall asleep while running TFs, especially at the end. So if you've ever teamed with me and my toon was stuck running into a wall while everyone else fought the AV... sorry...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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The ones that mention that have higher base accuracy (82.5% vs 75%, or 1.1 vs 1.0). So, I suppose those descriptions are technically accurate.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And I still want to know why Radiation Blast was originally described as being able to bypass defense. It can't be because the writer confused that with debuffing defense, because it *also* says it debuffs defense, so "bypass defense" must have meant something else in the writer's mind.
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But you know they didnt have a clue back then about the differences between ToHit and accuracy. You more than anyone had to fight with them to make them know the difference between the two.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I still want to know if the people who originally wrote the descriptions for things actually knew anything about the game. Mez protection powers still claim to offer Res. The difference between accuracy and tohit seems to be randomly interchangeable. And I still want to know why Radiation Blast was originally described as being able to bypass defense. It can't be because the writer confused that with debuffing defense, because it *also* says it debuffs defense, so "bypass defense" must have meant something else in the writer's mind.
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I am not sur if they ever had similar confussions with Mez resist vz prot or simply at some point during beta only intended those powers to offer resistance and no protection.
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That's her point: technically it is not accurate to say that accuracy bypasses defense. It does not. Global tohit buffs being provided full time would technically bypass defense, but it would do so for all attacks. |
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
The ones that mention that have higher base accuracy (82.5% vs 75%, or 1.1 vs 1.0). So, I suppose those descriptions are technically accurate.
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As far as I know, at the point of cancelation of the game, there was no way to grant power specific ToHit buffs.
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Hell... I still dont understand just what the difference is between the two. well, that to hit buffs are something that you can give to others. thats IT
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Originally Posted by <span style="color: GoldenRod; font-weight: bold;">Starsman</span>
But you know they didnt have a clue back then about the differences between ToHit and accuracy. You more than anyone had to fight with them to make them know the difference between the two.
I am not sur if they ever had similar confussions with Mez resist vz prot or simply at some point during beta only intended those powers to offer resistance and no protection. |
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From the wiki:|
Originally Posted by Star Ranger 4
Hell... I still dont understand just what the difference is between the two. well, that to hit buffs are something that you can give to others. thats IT
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ToHit and Defense work the same way as each other, but in opposite directions. What they do is pretty simple: they directly adjust the chance of hitting by the amount of the modifier. That is, they would be that simple if Accuracy didn't exist, but we'll ignore that for just a moment. Example: Let's say you're attacking something with a power that has a 65% chance of hitting. If you got a +20% ToHit buff, your chance of hitting would go up to 85% (65 + 20). If your target then got a +10% Defense buff, your chance would drop to 75% (85 10). If you then had your ToHit debuffed by -23%, your hit chance would drop further to 52% (75 23). Accuracy is subtly different. It modifies an attack's chance of hitting by a fraction of itself instead of by a fixed amount. Accuracy changes how often an attack hits in proportional terms instead of absolute terms. Example: Consider an unbuffed, unenhanced attack that hits 30% of the time. If it got a +50% ToHit buff, its hit chance would rise to 80% (30 + 50). If it got a +50% Accuracy bonus instead, its hit chance would only rise to 45% (30 + (50% of 30), which can also be written 30 × 1.5). Accuracy is applied in a second step, after all ToHit and Defense modifiers are applied. |
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There are self +ToHit buffs. Build Up and Aim both have +ToHit. ParagonWiki gets into their impact pretty thoroughly.
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Originally Posted by Star Ranger 4
Hell... I still dont understand just what the difference is between the two. well, that to hit buffs are something that you can give to others. thats IT
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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With how loosely the terms were used, in hindsight I think it's easy to interpret the intention. Higher base accuracy would, in turn, mean your attacks hit more often. It's a very poor way of conveying the actual benefit, but unless there was some cut mechanic that made attacks flat out not consider a portion of enemy defense, I don't think there's much mystery there aside from assigning blame to the appropriate intern.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
That's her point: technically it is not accurate to say that accuracy bypasses defense. It does not.
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I was also going for a pun.
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You could argue that an attack that had intrinsically higher tohit would be "bypassing defense" but not accuracy, and even if someone thought that that would not explain why they didn't describe all other sets with heightened accuracy as doing the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
The ones that mention that have higher base accuracy (82.5% vs 75%, or 1.1 vs 1.0). So, I suppose those descriptions are technically accurate.
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And as Starsman says, from launch to now there has never actually been a way to have an attack have intrinsically higher tohit, without resorting to some weird mechanics that I don't think existed at launch (you'd have to actually make the attack autohit and then make its effects have a separate programmatic chance to affect the target, meaning it would be possible for the attack to hit and none of its effects to land).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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My confession: I just don't care about the real numbers and all that junk. I would make a mids build of characters already at 50 (as someone already mentioned), and would just try to get as much recharge and def as I could. I don't know what all the numbers mean, and I don't care. I care that Dull Pain is ready to be used by the time that it's faded away, and that I always have a steady attack chain. I just like the shiny face-values!
Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG
Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007
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Yup! I guess that is what he inherited. And that and everything he added is what I inherited! lol, at least I left him the base, decorations, and all the prestige :-)
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Originally Posted by Star Ranger 4
*nods* Still, I was refering to the 'how dare you take my stuffz' attitude he displayed. As far as I'm concerned, if he was that 'ist MINE, ALL MINE' he shoulda made a sg of just himself. Granted he maybe thougth thats what he inheritied, but... never assume.
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Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG
Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007
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You cut me real deep right there, real deep.
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
That's awesome.
Confessions:
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Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG
Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007
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Yeah but you'll heal real fast, right?
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Originally Posted by Bohmfalk
You cut me real deep right there, real deep.
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When I've seen descriptions like that happen in other environments, it often turns out that two people touched it. One person was confused about a concept, and described it wrong, another person realized that a feature wasn't mentioned and added it, not realizing that the weird description was the same thing, and assuming whoever wrote the earlier bit knew what they were talking about.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And I still want to know why Radiation Blast was originally described as being able to bypass defense. It can't be because the writer confused that with debuffing defense, because it *also* says it debuffs defense, so "bypass defense" must have meant something else in the writer's mind.
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My guess is, the 'bypass defense' was for debuffing defense, and then someone later added the 'debuff defense' phrasing not realizing the bypass defense was the same thing, assuming that was another mechanic they just didn't know about those powers, but hey, they know it's got -defense, so let's put that in there.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Confessions:
I couldn't get Mids working on my machine. Well lets just say it used to work, then it stopped working for me probably around issue 12 or so, I removed it from my machine and from that point on I was a pencil and paper builder of my characters. For that reason, I hated hated hated respecs. I still have characters with Fitness pool because I just did not want to respec them, and then have to remember how my powers were setup in the trays.
I still have an AR/Dev blaster that didn't take targeting drone or snipe. Even the blaster changes that would have come with i24 would not make me take targeting drone or sniper rifle. Hows that for stubborn? I was however, looking forward to the changes to cloaking device that would have made him even more dominant. I took and used every devices power. It was just a different way to play the blaster archtype, and I don't regret one minute of time I spent playing him that way.
I used to add range to my TP foe for the purpose of trying to tp NPC's into areas like AE, or inside ICON or Facemaker.
I never once pvp'd. But I did enjoy going into PvP zones to do those instanced missions. Im going to have to go do that again before the game ends.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
I have an incurable habit of giving stupid answers to questions asked on broadcast/help.
SOMEONE: Where is Pandora's Box?
ME: Between Pandora's Legs.
DUDE: Help, I can't find my mission. I'm at where it says on the map but the arrow is below the ground!
ME: You need the Shovel temp power. You can get it by farming the CoT digging in Potter's Field.
GUY: When I click on Kara the Scorpion, it says "You cannot enter."
ME: Try buying her dinner first.
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Because that would still be confusing.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Agreed, but if (made up numbers) only 50% of a recharge time is reduced by a recharge-reduction item that claims to be 30%, why not just call it a 15% reduction?
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Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
With the exception of the last 1 or 2 gained in the past year while I was inactive, I've used EVERY SINGLE respec available to my main, Topher Wade. That's after 7 years of vetspecs, freespecs given a few times a year, (maybe minus a few freespecs that didn't stack), respec trial respecs, and any other way I may have gotten one.
Topher Wade lvl 50 Claws/Regen
The Crimson Heroes Society SG
Chaos Faction VG
Official Naturalized Citizen of Justice since 2007
I used to herd up the entire Drek map main island, pull all the Freaks around a corner and let them all jump into the same physical space. Then, I'd hit them with Seismic Smash slotted with 6 Nuc HO's and kill 200+ with one single target attack.
Another time I slotted 6 KB SO's in Heavy Mallet and went to Atlas Park to find a level 1 Hellion. I teed up and tried to drive him from the courtyard to the Hollows Gate. Unfortunately he only flew about 2/3 of the way there.
I PL'ed CMA the last 3 levels to 50
All of those were pre-ED, pre-GDN and pre-aggro cap.
I used to raid Hami 3 times a week for years until the issue 9 changes. For old times sake I did my first Hami raid since issue 9 last week. I still have 3 storage bins full of HO's in my base.
My very first toon was a Blaster... I got him to 23 and got tired of constantly dying so I rolled up CMA. From the time I rolled CMA until the time I hit 40 I never faceplanted. Then I encountered Malta and got owned by the Sappers.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Dark Armor really does suck.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Dark Armor really does suck.
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http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
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Side note: Before we all knew better, I also remember thinking it would had ben darn cool if we got some way to reduce cast time of attacks (before I realize how insanely overpowered that would be.) I recal thinking for recharge to affect everyone equally, the cast time also had to be reduced by the recharge buffs or enhancements (again, before I knew better.)