The CO Community & You
I'm with Tenzhi on this one: There's nothing wrong with blocking, and using "console games" like a derogatory term is unfair.
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It is a console game mechanism.
I despise console game-style gamplay.
Call it 'action', call it whatever you like- it's a concept rooted in gamepads and CO's original hybrid console/PC model, and I dislike it intensely.
If you don't mind it, that's fine.
But it is entirely fair to call it a console game mechanism because that's exactly what it is.
Champions really isn't an action game or a console game... |
It's enough of an MMO to maintain my engagement for now, but that doesn't improve my opinion of the residual design concessions to the console market.
The biggest thing to remember about Champions blocking is you're not supposed to react to every attack an NPC throws at you. |
It is a mechanism that hails explicitly from console design, and it does not appeal to me in any way.
That said, I *do* like it as applied to holds. It removes the binary 'helpless/fine' dichotomy of CoH and makes getting free more pro-active.
However I'd prefer if they'd left it at that.
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I said "action games" and that's precisely what I meant. "Console games" would be inaccurate, and not just because the artificial division the effete elite try to maintain between PC gaming and console gaming is becoming more meaningless by the moment, but because the mechanic extends to arcade gaming and various bits of shareware one would download off of BBSs back before the WWW was the place everyone got their kicks.
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But I'm not surprised you could have been one of the derelicts who showed up on my BBS message board back in the day burping 'WERE R TEH FILEZ?!?'
CO was designed for consoles.
And while I'm sure arcade console fighters played a part in the genesis of the mechanism, that isn't any sort of recommendation.
Odd, from Saturday to Monday (during which the double XP was conveniently available) I put in at least 24 hours of gaming without server disconnects, and the only technical issues I had was twice when I alt-tabbed away from the character creation and tried to come back all it would give me was a black screen with the mouse cursor so I had to End Task. |
YOU SHOULD TOTALLY MARRY CO!!
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*edit*
Actually, let me reword that...
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All I'm saying here is that I object to using "console game" as a dirty word. You're fine with not liking console games. It's a matter of taste. But to use them as a reason for why something is bad is not justified. "Blocking" has nothing to do with console games or console controllers. It has to do with the fact "blocking" an attack is a common part of how real fights happen, from ye olde knights using physical shields, to martial artists using their hands, to power armour users employing forcefields, to Earthbenders using walls of rock and so forth. It's not even a thing from gaming, either. Watch the remake of the thundercats, and you'll notice a recurring power artefact: The Spirit stone, which generates a forcefield with which protagonist Lion-O can block nearly any attack.
As far as I'm concerned, any action game that doesn't feature blocking is missing out. To reduce blocking and dodging and other combat ACTIONS to passive dice rolls is, to me, to compromise the point of having an ACTION game. Granted, Champions might not be an action game, so that may not be entirely appropriate there, but games like Rune, Drakan and so forth do let you block just fine, and those are PC exclusive. Hell, Olaf of the Lost Vikings fame is wholly and entirely defined by his shield, with which he can block a wide number of hazards. Sure, if you're making a purely stat-based RPG like a hands-off remake of D&D where this is dice rolls, then OK. I can dig that. But to make an action game and not let the player block just isn't a "good" thing for PC games to be proud of. Hell, there's nothing more frustrating to me than carrying a shield and not being able to block with it, with all that it does amounting to making my character numerically harder to hit.
I want to block and dodge and bob and weave and target my attacks. I want to move around and climb and outmanoeuvre my enemies. I want to act and I want to react. That's what defines an action game. And that the PC is seen as a platform for which action games shouldn't be made is nothing but a loss for PC gaming as a whole.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And as you get to know the mobs, you'll find that some of the attacks that are broadcast aren't really dangerous enough to worry about blocking, although this is more of a thing in the lower levels.
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Actually, that was always true, IMO -- but now it seems more true. It's just a matter of working enough survivability powers into your build. Hell, I've been using an offensive passive and I can herd up whole rooms for AoE destruction. Granted, I haven't played any Archetypes; free/premium players might feel differently.
In any case, and provided you're willing to subscribe and/or buy free-form character slots, I wouldn't sweat the blocking thing. Blocking is more a measure of last resort -- something to use when you need a breather and/or when you take on way more than you can chew -- than it is a staple tactic. There are many reasons not to like CO, but block shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
All of that said, and on a tenuously related side note: I was just a tad annoyed that all of the high-end Unity gear I grinded for ~2 years ago was rendered effectively useless in the interim. The good news is that it's not difficult to get the newer version of the same. (Silver Recognition gear)
Sidestepping the rather pointless blocking/console argument... If anyone wants to give CO a try with full access, give places like Amazon a look. I just picked up a box copy for £1.80 including postage and tax. That's 30 days game time for pennies.
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Ironically, the F2P archetypes "fixed" my biggest gripe about CO -- that the character creation system was entirely too complicated. I am not a number-cruncher at all, and when I played in beta I found the game entirely too difficult for the (no doubt horribly gimped) characters I was coming up with. I reinstalled the game a few days ago, rolled up a Behemoth, and it's going much better. Blocking is still pretty annoying, though.
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After about two weeks of reacquainting myself with CO's mechanics -- the new equipment and the new specializations and the balance changes to various powers and trees over the last two years -- I'm finding that you rarely need to block at all in solo content, even at high difficulty levels.
Actually, that was always true, IMO -- but now it seems more true. It's just a matter of working enough survivability powers into your build. Hell, I've been using an offensive passive and I can herd up whole rooms for AoE destruction. Granted, I haven't played any Archetypes; free/premium players might feel differently. In any case, and provided you're willing to subscribe and/or buy free-form character slots, I wouldn't sweat the blocking thing. Blocking is more a measure of last resort -- something to use when you need a breather and/or when you take on way more than you can chew -- than it is a staple tactic. There are many reasons not to like CO, but block shouldn't be a deal-breaker. All of that said, and on a tenuously related side note: I was just a tad annoyed that all of the high-end Unity gear I grinded for ~2 years ago was rendered effectively useless in the interim. The good news is that it's not difficult to get the newer version of the same. (Silver Recognition gear) |
I was messing around with offensive builds last night and survival powers outside of defensive passives are pretty viable, and going with an offensive role and offensive passive means dealing out a lot of damage.
I do like having block options like force sheath (to get endurance from every hit) or the darkness block which provides a lingering damage resistance buff.
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You have to consider one other thing - City of Heroes has "trained" us what to expect, but what it has trained us to expect isn't always a good idea.
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Like you, I too started out wanting energy melee powersets... But then I remembered WHY I started using Energy Melee to begin with - because I wanted an energy-using character who wasn't squishy. |
Currently he's a Km/Ea brute, but if Paragon had been able to release the "Kinetic assault" powerset talked about, I'd most likely re-roll him as a Grav/KM Dom.
My point here being I'm actually more at odds with the hardiness of my character than the fact that he uses energy powers in close combat.
That's a thing that makes him feel more unique. Instead of a hard line between shooting energy and punching, there's the fun middle ground.
In fact I'm pretty sure that for most people, if they're "kludging" energy/fire/ice/darkness/kinetic melee powers as anything, it's other energy-type melee powers that aren't specifically in-game.
I hate that all my melee characters in this game are naturally tough and none of them can defend themselves in other, more unique ways while still being basically defenseless otherwise. None of them parry with their swords or brace with their shields or throw up stone walls to hide behind. This is, of course an engine limitation, that doesn't mean it's not a flaw, just an unavoidable one.
"Defense" Vs. "resist" as a metagame thing is a big perpetrator.
Defense as a concept represents attacks not hitting you, something often achieved via action on the part of the target, but it's a passive effect in City.
Resist is fine as a passive effect, things still hit you, you just don't care as much for whatever reason is appropriate to you.
Having defense achieved from a purely "behind the veil" numbers calculation feels less like you are dodging attacks and more like enemies all just have completely terrible aim. Super Reflexes doesn't feel like having Super reflexes, it feels like having super luck.
I like the "blocking" mechanic in Champions for this specific reason. Although it's using different calculations and functions more like Resist than defense, it still represents action taken to defend oneself.
That's why my Princess Inna is Energy/Will, a reroll from an Energy/Energy Blaster. Champions' considerably different system is kind of helping me think outside the box, and the more I think about it... |
Really, my biggest issue with Champions is how rigidly they define broad concepts. Fire is always used in one way, Ice, Darkness, Energy, e.t.c.
In City I'd have to answer two questions when creating a character:
- What kind of powers do you want
- How do you want them to work?
In Champions I'd only get to answer one question:
- What kind of power do you want?
Every single powerset in Champions has a few powers designed to fill an essential role, Energy Builder, Self-heal, block, passive, energy unlock e.t.c. Many of these are actually pulled from the same framework, so certain sets don't even have a unique expression of these.
The rest of the set is geared towards a very specific type(or not, if that's the set's primary gimmick) In Champions, fire is all ranged blast powers. Want Fire-control? Tough. Fire melee? Sucks to be you. The trade-off is that you can select from multiple groups and mix-and match, but being able to have a fire blast and a punch as two separate things doesn't mean I have a "fire punch", it means I have a Punch and a Fire blast as two separate things.
This could be easily solved by having Melee and Ranged versions of each Power Set's energy builder, at the least.
The more I realize that elemental and energy melee sets don't make sense TO ME. |
Hear me out. |
For years, I complained how "punching with darkness" is goofy when you stop to think about it, yet I kept doing it because... What else was I gonna' do? |
But if I had options? Well, Inna wouldn't be punching with energy, because that's not how I envisioned her back in 2007 when I first made her. She'd be shooting energy and be very hard to kill. |
The oddest part about this is Melee archetypes actually do have ranged energy blast abilities.
and you definitely seem to adhere to the "as long as I have one blast, it counts" mentality, so, I'm not seeing the problem, unless the late availability of ancillaries bothers you that much.
And, again, you don't have any more options there than you do here. If anything you have less because now you can't define your Energy powers as anything but ranged blasts and a few explosions. Powers you may or may not have used are now more narrowly defined. Instead of five(or seven, if you include kinetic) nine-power powersets for energy powers, you have one fourteen-power one.
When you start being able to mix ranged sets with defenses, the "glowing fists" powersets start to lose their appeal, at least to me. And I can always pick punching attacks from other sets to make do. The fists won't glow, but they'll still be punching attacks. |
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I'll miss you all.
But I'm not surprised you could have been one of the derelicts who showed up on my BBS message board back in the day burping 'WERE R TEH FILEZ?!?'
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CO was designed for consoles. |
WOW YOU ARE AWESOME! AND YOU LIKE BLOCKING! YOU SHOULD TOTALLY MARRY CO!! |
I don't *hate* the blocking mechanic, either. I just don't find it to be some alien concept that I can't tolerate. And I haven't had any technical issues hampering my use of it, not even back in Beta when my computer and internet connection were inferior to my current setup. Indeed, I'd have to say that I've had more issues with click abilities lagging in this game than I've had with blocking in ChO.
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Someone earlier in this thread said that CO's Earth set beat CoH's Earth "set"... which is something I don't see at all, particularly in that CO has one Earth set (which, like most of CO's elemental and energy sets, is a mix of ranged attacks and PBAoEs, with exactly one single-target melee attack), while CoH has six of them, covering a wide variety of concepts (Melee, Armor, Assault, Control, and two Epic power sets, one for Brutes/Tanks, one for Controllers). Concepts were further helped by being able to make the attacks look like regular stone, lava, or crystal. My next dominator was probably going to be Earth Control/Earth Assault, which is impossible to create in CO. (The Earth Assault part, maybe, but not the Earth Control)
Same for fire, ice, electricity, energy, etc. If you want to use those elements in CO, then you can shoot blasts of that element, and that's the only option. Their entire Electricity powerset, for example, is pretty much CoH's Electric Blast, but without any of the powers that make Electric Blast unique or interesting (no Aim, no Short Circuit, no Voltaic Sentinel) and a lot of redundancy (with several single-target blasts, several AoE blasts, one short-duration hold, and one PBAoE). There's certainly nothing remotely like Electric Melee, Electric Armor, Electrical Manipulation, or Electric Control. The same goes for fire, ice, darkness, psychic powers, and plain old generic "energy". You can only blast.
That's why its elemental system limits concepts despite the freeform power selection.
As for CoH "training" people to expect elemental punches....
City of Heroes was released in 2004. The first Pokemon game (which contains skills explicitly called Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch) was released in Japan in 1996 and the US in 1998. M. Bison (the dictator) had psycho-powered flaming fists and Chun Li an ki-powered energy punch in Street Fighter II in 1991, and Ken got into the act with his flame Shoryuken in Champion Edition a year later. Back in 1988, the way you proved you were a Bad Dude (bad enough to rescue President Ronnie) involved charging your punches with fire. Thunder Punch He-Man, a toy released in 1985, has his arm wreathed in (plastic) lightning. And so on and so forth, further and further back.
City of Heroes didn't invent elemental or energy punches, not by a long shot. It's just the only superhero MMO that lets you actually make characters with them.
My friends and I used to play the tabletop Champions game. So when CO went F2P, I played with them for a bit. I wrote up some notes:
Silver Survival Guide
Here's other ones that I found helpful:
Guides for Silver / F2P
Hope this helps!
Both CO and DCU are F2P, so it doesn't hurt to try both out. For me, there are too many things in CO that I can't stand. After playing CO, I feel so spoiled and pampered in CoH.
As I've said...having tried DCUO and CO.....I'll take CO as filler until something else comes along.
That said....City of Heroes is what...8+ year old now? And CO is three + ?
Champions was only made after Jack Emmert got canned from this game. To me, CO will always be the redheaded stepchild of this game, even after this one goes away. (IF)
That also said...there's things that CO has that CoH doesn't. Holy god. Lairs. And a TAILOR IN THE LAIR. Some pretty damn good costume pieces that aren't direct copies. I've seen a couple heads that made me have to look twice. Wait...three times. Okay, four. But no more than five. Six?
I still hope and pray that our efforts will save this game so it can go on and perhaps see some of those things come to life in CoX.
CO's graphics are still way too cartoony and WoW-ish for me to really like. It's not a matter of superiority...it's a matter of realism. CoX just looked more...lifelike, even with mittenhands. *sigh* I hate comparing games...but after CoH? Yeah....everything will have this huge candle held to it.
Redacted until I know for certain what is going on. If I'm the only one having problems than it's not right for me to condemn CO for it.
Haven't really been seeing any issues with being dropped on zoning, myself, though there's the usual rubberbanding I expect while playing CO. Monster Island especially, which is part of the reason I hate that zone. I think my only disconnect happened in there, actually. To be honest, I figured your post was about how possible it was to make really broken (either broken as in soloing lairs or broken as in this powerset got so nerfed it's like playing Power Pool Man in CoX). Perhaps it's seen more going into Alerts and the like, which I've not gotten in the mood to do yet?
Really can't find much in me to recommend DCUO, though, aside from how well they did superspeed. Played it to level cap and then some a while back, and it just seemed fundamentally poorly designed unless you were DPS. I can only have so much fun running up buildings as SS before the rest of the game's uninteresting design makes me leave.
As for CoH "training" people to expect elemental punches....
City of Heroes was released in 2004. The first Pokemon game (which contains skills explicitly called Fire Punch, Ice Punch, and Thunder Punch) was released in Japan in 1996 and the US in 1998. M. Bison (the dictator) had psycho-powered flaming fists and Chun Li an ki-powered energy punch in Street Fighter II in 1991, and Ken got into the act with his flame Shoryuken in Champion Edition a year later. Back in 1988, the way you proved you were a Bad Dude (bad enough to rescue President Ronnie) involved charging your punches with fire. Thunder Punch He-Man, a toy released in 1985, has his arm wreathed in (plastic) lightning. And so on and so forth, further and further back. City of Heroes didn't invent elemental or energy punches, not by a long shot. It's just the only superhero MMO that lets you actually make characters with them. |
Kyosuke Kagami from Project Justice: Rival Schools 2 showed me how awesome lightning melee attacks could be (I'm still sad that to this day there's nothing like his Cross Cutter, Raijin Upper. There isn't anything like Batsu Ichimonji's Burning Elbow or Shooting Star Kick.
TV Series Mutant X had Brennan Mulray, an Elemental New Mutant with the ability to generate electricity not only using his powers to blast people from afar, but deliver 'taser jabs', pick electronic locks, jumpstart cars and electrocute things by touching them.
Brennan inspired my Electric/Electric/Electric blaster, Fusebox, and having those elemental punches made her so much better. If something gets into close range, what does she do with her powers? Amps up her fists and goes to town on their face.
I had some server disconnects, but they seem to have gotten quite a bit better in the last couple of days.
Troubling news.
I've mentioned before that I've played CO off and on since launch and generally had a lot of fun with it. I've been trying to help people in my SG and here in the forums get used to it if they wanted to try it. But the thing is, I had been on hiatus playing STO free. And I wasn't paid up on my Champions sub. And ALL my characters were Freeform gold and I wasn't willing to change them to silver (because that's a one-way trip.) So I had not actually been in-game in CO since before the announcement to sunset CoH. Just helping people here based entirely on my memory and what I knew of the game from the last time I played it. (About 2 months back) Well. I hate to say this. I really do. But I'm going to have to eat crow. CO is badly BADLY broken at the present time. The last few patches have SHATTERED the game in a thousand ways, both large and small. And currently, it is all but unplayable. The worst thing right now is the zoning bug. Every time you zone from one instance to another. The game cannot handle it. And times out from the server and drops the client. This is UNACCEPTABLE. If they don't re-assign what few devs they have working on this game away from lock-boxes and costumes and get them fixing the broken nature of the game between now and Dec 1st. I'm going to have to retract every statement I've ever made about CO being the alternative for Cox and do the unthinkable. Recommend that you go to DCUO. Because, whatever problems DCUO has, from the limited chat functions to the wildly different gameplay... at least those are all problems with DESIGN. DCUO at least WORKS. I can't say that about Champions Online at present. CO does NOT WORK. The bugginess is maddening and has made the game all but unplayable. Until the countless bugs are fixed. I recommend staying away. |
I did a complete uninstall and re-install. And the exact same problems are happening now as before.
Constant load screen lag to the point of timing out and losing connection back to the log-in. Constant rubberbanding and "Server Not Responding" every 10-30 seconds.
It's unplayable.
Haven't really been seeing any issues with being dropped on zoning, myself, though there's the usual rubberbanding I expect while playing CO. Monster Island especially, which is part of the reason I hate that zone. I think my only disconnect happened in there, actually. To be honest, I figured your post was about how possible it was to make really broken (either broken as in soloing lairs or broken as in this powerset got so nerfed it's like playing Power Pool Man in CoX). Perhaps it's seen more going into Alerts and the like, which I've not gotten in the mood to do yet?
Really can't find much in me to recommend DCUO, though, aside from how well they did superspeed. Played it to level cap and then some a while back, and it just seemed fundamentally poorly designed unless you were DPS. I can only have so much fun running up buildings as SS before the rest of the game's uninteresting design makes me leave. |
There's just no there there. What starts as a refreshingly different take on MMOs transitions disturbingly quickly into a painful, transparently repetitive end-game raiding grind. And there's basically nothing else, except for grinding out skill points, which requires a completionist mindset to put any compulsive CoH badger to shame. The leveling progression is fast and easy, but the skill-point system makes alting painful. That, and the fact that you accrue costume looks by acquiring gear.
Anyway, I wouldn't tell anyone not to try DCUO. It's worth picking up just for the week or so of leveling content. But for what it's worth, I think it's obviously the least appealing of the three superhero MMOs, and that goes double if you're a COH player looking for a new home.
As far as CO goes, I haven't had any problems with zoning or playing in general. I've tripped over a couple of annoying quest bugs, and there are a tiny handful of QoL issues that I'm frankly surprised Cryptic hasn't addressed in the last two years, but with all due sympathy for Atlantea's plight, I wouldn't recommend against the game on the basis that one CoH player reports game-breaking bugs. CO may very well be buggier than the usual MMO; honestly I can't say, but as usual with PC games, technical issues are pot-luck. You might have 'em; you might not.
You won't know til you try.
Atlantea, it's because you're in Texas. My roomie and some other CO players did some trace-route research, and there's an issue with two pipeline providers, Time Warner and Cogent, who are for some reason losing a crap ton of packets in their data hand-off. A Time Warner engineer (not a support tech) has the trace route data from the players and has opened an investigation as of last night.
(I can't believe I'm helping with CO problems, but you're pretty awesome so I guess it's okay. But still, LONG LIVE CITY OF HEROES!!!)
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I did a complete uninstall and re-install. And the exact same problems are happening now as before.
Constant load screen lag to the point of timing out and losing connection back to the log-in. Constant rubberbanding and "Server Not Responding" every 10-30 seconds. It's unplayable. |
I've redacted my previous post. I now am not certain of what's going on. I thought if I had uninstalled and re-installed the game and was still having problems then it had to be the game itself and not me or my computer. But if no one else is having these issues, it would be wrong to make a blanket condemnation of CO for general bugginess.
I'll try and find out more of what's going on on my end.
And as you get to know the mobs, you'll find that some of the attacks that are broadcast aren't really dangerous enough to worry about blocking, although this is more of a thing in the lower levels.
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