Why was COH killed by NCSoft?


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Originally Posted by LeperDave1 View Post
Yes, CoH sales have dropped, but nothing compared to Aion. Any news of them axing Aion? Anybody? Bueller?
They probably won't because Aion is still making 10 to 15 times what CoH did? It's not just loss over previous quarters, it's whether the game is still bringing in more than it costs to support.


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Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
They didn't choose to do so - NCSOFT cancelled ALL recurrent billing so anyone whose account was due to renew after 31 August cannot do so.
^^This. Very much this! I've been on monthly auto renew for the past 5+ years. My renew JUST hit before the announcement. And now I have NO CHOICE but to be dropped when the next date hits because ALL billing was CANCELLED. ... I've been subbed for the past 5 years, and now time's ticking away and I have NO CHOICE but watch as I get dropped ... That's not fair...


 

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Originally Posted by LadyPhoenix View Post
^^This. Very much this! I've been on monthly auto renew for the past 5+ years. My renew JUST hit before the announcement. And now I have NO CHOICE but to be dropped when the next date hits because ALL billing was CANCELLED. ... I've been subbed for the past 5 years, and now time's ticking away and I have NO CHOICE but watch as I get dropped ... That's not fair...
As long as you were VIP before billing stopped you will remain VIP until the end.


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Posted

As long as that's the case, I'm fine with that. Thanks.


 

Posted

Regardless of how little money CoH was bringing in, it was still bringing in money. It was not a loss to the company. If NCSoft had cut some staff or stopped the "Secret project", something to cut expenditures to make CoH even more profitable, that would make sense.

But they didn't. They killed the whole shebang, profit and all.

If John Doe is making $100,000 a year, and he finds himself getting into debt due to outside problems, he would not go to his boss and say "Hey, I'm in debt, so could you lower my salary to $98,000 a year? I think that'll help me pay off the debt more quickly." Sure, it's only a 2% decrease, but it's still less money coming in.

Because that's exactly what NCSoft did. They said "We're $6 million in the hole, so let's kill the stable project that's bringing in around $1 million a year net. That'll make us more money."


 

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Originally Posted by LeperDave1 View Post
One of the theories I've seen floated is the loss of sales in CoH, which then links to NCSoft financial records. Well, here's a look at their sales since 2010:



Yes, CoH sales have dropped, but nothing compared to Aion. Any news of them axing Aion? Anybody? Bueller?
Looking over the numbers shed some light into their thinking... if you can call it that. While Aion's sales dropped, it was still making more overall than CoH and with Guildwars 2 coming out to cover Guildwars.. it left CoH in the crosshairs.

I get why now, it was pure business... Do I like it? NO! Will NCSoft ever get any more of my money? OH HELL NO!


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I guess I'm still in shock, I got divorced in 2003 and I remember starting that September and have been VIP ever since.. it took me through so many life changes. I remember doing the Eden trial the first time when the divorce was finalized, it was a nice break away from all of the legal stuff and a nice gift to myself to finally be out of a bad marriage. Got my girlfriend's involved and one became my fiance..all the while CoX was a constant. She knew certain times I was gonna be logged in and sometimes would login from her house just to reach me. Really became a fabric of my life. And then with mission architect, omg, I just got addicted, writing so many stories and then even started posting them to Youtube (got 23 loaded so far). No other game even comes close to the uniqueness that CoX had... this sucks big time!


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Originally Posted by Ukaserex View Post
Are you serious? We were notified on 8/31. The last day is Nov. 30.

That's three months. So, we got prep time.

You want VIP status? Non-VIP were too cheap or broke to support the game with a subscription and you think they're entitled to free VIP? Seriously?

If they gave them free VIP, then they'd have to refund every VIP that's paid for it - or it wouldn't be in the least bit fair. Of course, no one said life was fair.

I just wish NCSoft had a paid subscription from everyone who's stated that they should give free VIP to everyone, then maybe the game would have been profitable enough to keep.

I don't care to read/hear how free and premium players supported the game by spending money in the paragon market. If those same folks had been subbed, CoH might not have needed to switch to the hybrid model ( a desperation move) in the first place.
I have zero sympathy for free and premium players who whine about not having vip access -- (except those that just found the game in the past month. For those newer players, I have sympathy.)
Another problem with EVERYONE VIP MARKET IS NOW FREE is that if the game DOES get saved, it would really screw things up and new players would be So Mad they missed the opportunity, etc.

To answer your question OP:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Treees View Post

Basics
  • City of Heroes and Paragon Studios were officially shut down by NCsoft on August 31st, 2012.
  • The official date the servers close will be November 30th.
Theories
  • There may be several reasons for the shut down, but details have still not been fully revealed.
  • It was NCsoft's decision. "In a realignment of company focus and publishing support, NCsoft has made the decision to close Paragon Studios."
  • Theory: CoH was not bringing in enough money.
  • Theory: To compensate, closed Paragon Studios.
  • Sub-Theory: City of Heroes takes the fall for the mistake of Aion. "NCSoft loses 6 million in quarter." http://bit.ly/TFiZdc
  • Theory: "NCsoft is now going in outsource, and will be moving to certain new games with new technology that sadly CoH Engine cannot support."
  • Theory: CoH needed a licensing renewal but Cryptic/Perfect World does not want to extend a competitor (as they own Champions Online). Debunked! The real issue is that Cryptic/PW still own the license to the CoH engine. Thus, in order to sell the game, they would have to approve.


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Originally Posted by Thunder Knight View Post
If John Doe is making $100,000 a year, and he finds himself getting into debt due to outside problems, he would not go to his boss and say "Hey, I'm in debt, so could you lower my salary to $98,000 a year? I think that'll help me pay off the debt more quickly." Sure, it's only a 2% decrease, but it's still less money coming in.

Because that's exactly what NCSoft did. They said "We're $6 million in the hole, so let's kill the stable project that's bringing in around $1 million a year net. That'll make us more money."
It's not really a good analogy, though. You can't compare corporate investments to a paid salary. NCSoft has a certain amount of cash. They put that cash into games, and they get back more cash. Then they screwed up: they made some acquisitions and blew some money on advertising, while their income unexpectedly dropped. Now they find themselves with less cash than usual. So they have to make a choice: do they put that cash into game A and make a 10% profit, or put it into game B and make a 2% profit? Before, they had enough money to do both. Now they don't. So they chose game A, and we got shafted because we play game B.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that was the calculation that took place, and I can't really blame them for making the call if that was the case. I can, and do, blame them for not selling the game to someone who would be happy to make a meager 2% profit. Or for releasing the source code to the Titan Network, making the IP public domain, and wishing us all the best of luck. Or for spinning off Paragon Studios as an independent company, to succeed or fail on their own two feet. Or any other possible solution that would not result in the death of my favorite game.

NCSoft has spent years honing their reputation as a company that is willing to kill off a game with no mercy and no consideration for the players or developers. I wouldn't have started playing CoH if I had first heard of the game after the death of Tabula Rasa. And I hope the people playing Guildwars or Lineage or Aion today are comfortable knowing that someday all of their characters will be wiped with little warning and no hope of reprieve.

Sigh. Although, in all fairness, anyone playing any MMO should always be prepared for such a possibility. It's not so much and "if" as it is a "when?"


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ukaserex View Post
Are you serious? We were notified on 8/31. The last day is Nov. 30.

That's three months. So, we got prep time.

You want VIP status? Non-VIP were too cheap or broke to support the game with a subscription and you think they're entitled to free VIP? Seriously?

If they gave them free VIP, then they'd have to refund every VIP that's paid for it - or it wouldn't be in the least bit fair. Of course, no one said life was fair.

I just wish NCSoft had a paid subscription from everyone who's stated that they should give free VIP to everyone, then maybe the game would have been profitable enough to keep.

I don't care to read/hear how free and premium players supported the game by spending money in the paragon market. If those same folks had been subbed, CoH might not have needed to switch to the hybrid model ( a desperation move) in the first place.
I have zero sympathy for free and premium players who whine about not having vip access -- (except those that just found the game in the past month. For those newer players, I have sympathy.)
So if they are no longer taking payments, what happens to those that are VIP now, but would normally have a payment come out, say tomorrow? Should they be removed from VIP?


 

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Originally Posted by DarkGob View Post
As long as you were VIP before billing stopped you will remain VIP until the end.
There is no proof this is a truthful statement anywhere that I have found.

Please provide a link for this information.


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Originally Posted by peterpeter View Post
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that was the calculation that took place, and I can't really blame them for making the call if that was the case. I can, and do, blame them for not selling the game to someone who would be happy to make a meager 2% profit. Or for releasing the source code to the Titan Network, making the IP public domain, and wishing us all the best of luck. Or for spinning off Paragon Studios as an independent company, to succeed or fail on their own two feet. Or any other possible solution that would not result in the death of my favorite game.
That's the thing that puzzles me to no end. Why no attempt to monetize the IP in CoX? It really makes no sense at all to just shut it down instead of at least trying to get *something* for it. But we obviously don't have the full picture, or the view from their perspective. Maybe they don't have the managerial bandwidth to try and fob off CoX for a small amount while paying attention to their real money maker. Or maybe, as other posts have suggested, there's not a 'clear title' to all the IP and the game engine is still licensed. Or maybe they tried and no one who actually had enough money wanted to buy it. Whatever the reason, from a cost / benefit perspective they must have thought this was the "right" thing for them to do.

Guess we'll have to end with expletive deleted, as the forum software doesn't seem to want to display my one word closer.


 

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Originally Posted by Gaia View Post
They didn't choose to do so - NCSOFT cancelled ALL recurrent billing so anyone whose account was due to renew after 31 August cannot do so.
Wait...what? What a jerk I am! I completely misunderstood the dilemma.

Well, on the bright side, I've only got a few months left to cram the other foot in my mouth.

I read that they stopped recurring billing -- but it just didn't register. I guess it's fitting I made a toon called Obtuse Rex.

Sorry folks. That does stink.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpeter View Post
It's not really a good analogy, though. You can't compare corporate investments to a paid salary. NCSoft has a certain amount of cash. They put that cash into games, and they get back more cash. Then they screwed up: they made some acquisitions and blew some money on advertising, while their income unexpectedly dropped. Now they find themselves with less cash than usual. So they have to make a choice: do they put that cash into game A and make a 10% profit, or put it into game B and make a 2% profit? Before, they had enough money to do both. Now they don't. So they chose game A, and we got shafted because we play game B.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that was the calculation that took place, and I can't really blame them for making the call if that was the case. I can, and do, blame them for not selling the game to someone who would be happy to make a meager 2% profit. Or for releasing the source code to the Titan Network, making the IP public domain, and wishing us all the best of luck. Or for spinning off Paragon Studios as an independent company, to succeed or fail on their own two feet. Or any other possible solution that would not result in the death of my favorite game.

NCSoft has spent years honing their reputation as a company that is willing to kill off a game with no mercy and no consideration for the players or developers. I wouldn't have started playing CoH if I had first heard of the game after the death of Tabula Rasa. And I hope the people playing Guildwars or Lineage or Aion today are comfortable knowing that someday all of their characters will be wiped with little warning and no hope of reprieve.

Sigh. Although, in all fairness, anyone playing any MMO should always be prepared for such a possibility. It's not so much and "if" as it is a "when?"
I could easily deal with the closure of the game if things had been on the downfall for some time. People leaving, Freedom and Virtue becoming ghosttowns, Paragon Studios laying off employees, nothing new coming out for some time, you know, all the signs that a company and it's game is circling the drain.

But not like this. This was a sudden and out of left field slam on the game and the company. This is why it hurts so much, it was unexpected and nobody was prepared for it.

A fellow CoH'er on another forum put it this way for his theory about the shutdown instead of sale.

Quote:
Companies are always schizophrenic in these cases: the "new thing" (usually the dreamchild of the CEO or senior VP) consumes all available resources, resulting in staff for the "old stuff" being either fired outright (to cut costs) or press-ganged onto the new project, no matter how badly it stinks. And regardless of how warmly they encourage other companies to hire their freshly-fired staff, I guarantee they will not grant any leeway on the "non-compete" clauses in said ex-employees' contracts, so they can utilize their hard-earned game developer skills asking "do you want fries with that?".

The company will never sell its older (but successfull) project to a competitor for fear the old project will bleed off sales the "new thing" rightfully should garner; had the "new thing" actually gotten into production, the old product would have been killed off anyway, for the same reason.

Why, yes, I have been on the receiving end of such a MCF...


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Posted

I believe people who had yearly subs got their subs canceled, and are now premiums. The only people that get this month as VIP are the one and three monthers. anyone else got chopped off.

I am not even sure if the year subscribers are getting refunds.



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Originally Posted by _Pine_ View Post
I believe people who had yearly subs got their subs canceled, and are now premiums. The only people that get this month as VIP are the one and three monthers. anyone else got chopped off.

I am not even sure if the year subscribers are getting refunds.
My main account is on an annual subscription. I appear to still have VIP status. As of ten minutes ago, my account is not showing the "become VIP" star, my characters have access to incarnate powers and inventions, and I have full access to test server and beta server character slots. Everything I expect a VIP to have access to I current do.


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My main account is on an annual subscription. I appear to still have VIP status. As of ten minutes ago, my account is not showing the "become VIP" star, my characters have access to incarnate powers and inventions, and I have full access to test server and beta server character slots. Everything I expect a VIP to have access to I current do.
Same here. Mine is supposed to renew on September 14, so we'll see what happens then.


 

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Originally Posted by Gayla View Post
Same here. Mine is supposed to renew on September 14, so we'll see what happens then.
You'll retain VIP status, the same as people whose VIP time has already "expired" since the announcement.


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NCSoft is also BANNED from my wallet FOREVER.

The way this is being handled shows a complete lack of customer loyalty or respect, its sicking this is seems ok to them.

Had I not already picked up GW2 id never buy it now. The only thing that's going to keep me playing that is giving the dev team a job but ill be damned if ill be picking up any of there in game RMT crap and once it hits full pay to win ill be gone, dame shame I enjoyed gw1 from launch.

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Originally Posted by Ukaserex View Post
It's plenty fair. They chose to drop their accounts. Something else was more important. I'm sure it's not pleasant to realize that the option to wait a week before you resub leaves you high and dry - just be glad you had the option instead of being locked into paying it every month.
^^ Reason why *I* Dropped to Premium. Financial hard times. I FINALLY Got a new job, started to bring in some extra cash, was gonna re-up then this happened. Like come on.

Food on my kids plates was a bit more of a pressing priority. I could still log on and play as a premium member so there.


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Posted

OK, here is my theory, based in part on the corporate-speak from the announcement. (1) We know that Guild Wars 2 is having major server issues. GW2 is supposed to be a big money maker for NC Soft, but they have stopped selling on line due to the server issues. (2) We know that CoH was making a profit, but not a huge profit. CoH was not shut down because it was losing money. (3) We know that corporations are all about making a profit. (4) By the crappy way NC Soft handled the situation, we can assume that they made a quick decision and may have had a deadline. We know that the Devs had no idea this was coming.

So, what if the corporations wanted to re-purpose the CoH servers to use for GW2 in time for Christmas sales? CoH is an old game that probably won't last too much longer (in their view) and only generates a small profit while it uses assets (servers) that could be re-purposed to make a bigger profit. Considering the losses suffered by NC Soft, they might have decided to re-purpose the CoH servers rather than make new ones to deal with the GW2 Demand. NC Soft may not have anticipated (a) the server demand for GW2 and (b) the cash losses from Aion. If they had plenty of cash, they could have built new servers. But with a shortage of cash, they needed to find a way to provide servers for GW2 without spending cash. Leasing would be more expensive than re-purposing assets they already had and were using for a less-profitable purpose.

I don't know what would be involved in revising the servers to run GW2, but the rest of this theory seems to fit the corporate mind-set and the timing and the poor way in which it was handled. They had to rush to give the 3 month closing time for City of Heroes to be complete before the Christmas season. By shutting down some marginally profitable assets and changing them over, they will make more profit without incurring a significant cost.

It is kind of like a store that sells off slow-moving merchandise at a loss to clear inventory space and cash to buy new merchandise that will sell faster and turn a greater profit.


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Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
They had to rush to give the 3 month closing time for City of Heroes to be complete before the Christmas season. By shutting down some marginally profitable assets and changing them over, they will make more profit without incurring a significant cost.
Not a bad theory, but it seems to me that waiting until the end of November is not giving themselves a lot of time to reallocate the servers to GW2 to meet a Xmas shopping deadline, so I'm not sure that this is the whole story.

My initial assumption was that the devs presented a plan to NCSoft to upgrade CoH's dated graphics and the cost would eat up the meager profits of the game for the next ten years. But the abrupt cancellation of the title indicates something else, because CoH could have gone on for a few more years even with dated graphics.

I now suspect that it's a purely mundane reason: ending the game and closing the studio adds more to the bottom line in the short-term than keeping it all going. And CoH is probably not considered a long-term profit source any longer.


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Posted

Very certain they wer forced into it by something may have been a licienceing issue or cash flow or something else suspect we will never know the full reasons for it my own personal suspicion is that it was several diferent issues - it may even have been caused by an external event (for example marvel bringing out an mmo {yes they may have pulled it back off the shelf})


 

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After Freedom launched I noticed that there were none of the "we are making 2/3/4 times the revenue that we were making previously". Unlike DDO, LOTRO or even STO. In fact I noticed that post Freedom there were very few press releases at all, and commented on it.

Honestly I think Freedom was expected to be a DDO level of success and it wasn't. Just turning a small profit isn't enough. Thus all they can look forward to is a slow continued fall in profits so may as well pull the plug and retrieve and repurpose assets.


 

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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
After Freedom launched I noticed that there were none of the "we are making 2/3/4 times the revenue that we were making previously". Unlike DDO, LOTRO or even STO. In fact I noticed that post Freedom there were very few press releases at all, and commented on it.

Honestly I think Freedom was expected to be a DDO level of success and it wasn't. Just turning a small profit isn't enough. Thus all they can look forward to is a slow continued fall in profits so may as well pull the plug and retrieve and repurpose assets.
Quite possibly true.

But, very odd to cut if off at the knees this quickly, particularly with the items in the pipeline (packs and powers set and costums) that we would have paid for if they'd let us while quietly shutting things down in the back ground and then sunsetting after taking the cash.

It is all just... odd.


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