Meanwhile, in the Halls of Titan...
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2012-08-31 17:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm leaning that way too - or licensing another engine - especially if a long-term goal is to have a subscription/hybrid payment model - a new engine would attract more new players, I think.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I much prefer the idea of generating a new game engine vs trying to license the old one
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, what part of the current version of CoH would you be afraid of losing with a new engine?
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Originally Posted by CuppaManga
GG, Voodoo - Let me present this idea: The game engine can be updated, it just hasn't been. Anything can be updated. It's actually more expensive and riskier to start over because you don't really know if the new game will have the same appeal with all of us.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Those are possibilities, but to be clear, my #1 goal right now is to keep the lights on. After we meet that goal, we can focus on improvements and/or alternatives. If the lights go off, though, especially for any significant length of time, we're going to lose opportunity and committed players. My goal is first and foremost to keep what we have intact. Other options are on the table, but only if we reach an impasse with regards to keeping the lights as they currently exist on.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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I believe the idea to create a new engine and "wrap" the content of CoH around it.|
Originally Posted by CuppaManga
GG, Voodoo - Let me present this idea: The game engine can be updated, it just hasn't been. Anything can be updated. It's actually more expensive and riskier to start over because you don't really know if the new game will have the same appeal with all of us.
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The old engine is hard to update because it is so bug riddled and many of the original people who coded it left and didn't leave notes.
Just look at the whole base system.
Note that if the rumors are true, Perfect World (ne Atari, ne Cryptic) is the real problem... they own the rights to the engine, and the reason the rug was pulled out form under everyone's feet is that they basically said "no, we won't re-license this at a reasonable price".
If that is accurate, getting the IP may be less difficult than the engine. Note that animations and models are often tightly tied to the engines... you typically can't just grab resources and plop them in to a new engine. I've heard it's usually easier just to remake them... which would be painful.
Note: Not trying to rain on any parades. Just trying to help create an accurate understanding of the lay-of-the-land, so the best decision can be made as to how to move forward.
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Zwillinger seems to be hinting that this is not the case.
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Originally Posted by Magenta_Phoenix
Note that if the rumors are true, Perfect World (ne Atari, ne Cryptic) is the real problem... they own the rights to the engine, and the reason the rug was pulled out form under everyone's feet is that they basically said "no, we won't re-license this at a reasonable price".
If that is accurate, getting the IP may be less difficult than the engine. Note that animations and models are often tightly tied to the engines... you typically can't just grab resources and plop them in to a new engine. I've heard it's usually easier just to remake them... which would be painful. Note: Not trying to rain on any parades. Just trying to help create an accurate understanding of the lay-of-the-land, so the best decision can be made as to how to move forward. |
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Oh, yeah. I didn't mean the actual process of creating a legal corporate entity; I meant the process of chartering it, establishing the hierarchy and all that so we have a robust description of the operating procedures. I have a bug's-eye-view of what that must be like, but contemplating the whole thing is pretty overwhelming.
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Originally Posted by CuppaManga
Oddly enough I've done that before, and it's basically just filling out a form and paying a fee.
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That's what I mean - even though contniuation is the top priority, we've got to be ready with Plan B or Plan C.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
If the lights go off, though, especially for any significant length of time, we're going to lose opportunity and committed players.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
An RL friend of mine who was having a rough time once said that he just hoped never to get to plan H, which was basically, "go out with a bang." I asked him what that made plan J, and man, if you want to see someone's eyes light up...
I gotta say, though, Plan N was pretty crazy.
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Specifically, I'm sure they had to explicitly sign the rights away to those characters and all copyrightable content associated with them.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, they're safe, because they're not part of the official IP - Positron is written into the IP, and features in the official comics and other promotional material.
As another example, when Jack left, he wouldn't have been allowed to use the name Statesman anymore - and the same goes for BAB. |
I signed away no such rights, and so while NCSoft can continue to use my characters indefinitely, they have no legal way to stop me from using them myself. Those authorship rights are baked into US copyright law, and an EULA cannot take them away.
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Yah.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Specifically, I'm sure they had to explicitly sign the rights away to those characters and all copyrightable content associated with them.
I signed away no such rights, and so while NCSoft can continue to use my characters indefinitely, they have no legal way to stop me from using them myself. Those authorship rights are baked into US copyright law, and an EULA cannot take them away. |
If I wanted to write stories about Onyx Monolith or Bianca Tallin, or even to revamp the already-written stories about them while ripping out all of the elements created by Cryptic/Paragon, and sell them, I would be free to do so. However, if through some trick of fate, Onyx Monolith and Bianca Tallin became famous characters, NCSoft could theoretically use a version of them to hypothetically help launch a new CoH.
Typically corporations do not do that sort of thing though, because it tends to cause problems and it generally ends up being worth a lot less than any potential boost these characters might provide for them.
First, thank you Titan Network.
Second, I fully support any and all efforts to continue playing and supporting CoH by anyone and everyone.
Third, like many others, I don't want to see this community stopped in any way.
Finally, I'll eagerly contribute money to help fund continuation of this game.
@Cannonfodder
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Ditto here too because its soo worth it
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Originally Posted by Storyteller
First, thank you Titan Network.
Second, I fully support any and all efforts to continue playing and supporting CoH by anyone and everyone. Third, like many others, I don't want to see this community stopped in any way. Finally, I'll eagerly contribute money to help fund continuation of this game. |
VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use I'm in. I'll give whatever I can to make this happen.
@Ashen Fury
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As long as my money goes through CoH I don't really care much where it ends up. Give me something to throw money at and you've got at the minimum my old monthly sub money.
Extra Options
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Class action lawsuit for emotional distress -- How many players we have in this game? That's one big lawsuit, which ofcourse can go away with nothing more than releasing the IP 
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COH more than likely was axed due to the numbers game. I say we buy Arcanaville a house and plane ticket and let her go work her numbers magic on them to show them exactly why this is a bad idea.
I don't know much about Titan Network, but I can tell that if you are up for saving the Cities that we have saved countless times, I will do what I can to pitch in.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
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Just a crazy thought, but this just popped into my head:|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
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What if they actually were being charitable.
If a charity for the preservation and proliferation of City of Heroes was set up, then if they donated the IP (and possibly code) to it, it might well be that the 'full' value (which they would probably never hope to realise otherwise) would then be tax deductable. That might just be more lucrative to NCSoft than the amount that we could raise to buy it.
Donations/subscriptions to the charity could then, in theory, be used for game development.
Not sure if that would work, would depend on the various tax and charity laws. Just desperately trying to think outside the box.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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The Titan Network is basically a fan-run hub for various other fan-run CoH websites:|
Originally Posted by magikwand
I don't know much about Titan Network, but I can tell that if you are up for saving the Cities that we have saved countless times, I will do what I can to pitch in.
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http://www.cohtitan.com/
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The players, mostly. There's no way a game like CoH can be made in 3 months. By the time it's done, the players will be long gone somewhere else, and out of contact. Also, possibly some other game company with more people and money will have beat us to it.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, what part of the current version of CoH would you be afraid of losing with a new engine?
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Manga @ Triumph
"Meanwhile In The Halls Of Titan"...Titan Network Working To Save City Of Heroes
Save Paragon City! Efforts Coordination
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A rebirth of CoH as a player run game would make a lot of news - and not just on gaming sites - it'd be a story with so many hooks, and the word would get around pretty fast.
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Originally Posted by CuppaManga
The players, mostly. There's no way a game like CoH can be made in 3 months. By the time it's done, the players will be long gone somewhere else, and out of contact. Also, possibly some other game company with more people and money will have beat us to it.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I made a 3D model editor in one month's time. That's kind of similar. |
Originally Posted by CuppaManga
The players, mostly. There's no way a game like CoH can be made in 3 months. By the time it's done, the players will be long gone somewhere else, and out of contact. Also, possibly some other game company with more people and money will have beat us to it.
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Actually that's backwards; the game engine is *easy* to update, or even replace. The question is whether it will be compatible with the old mechanics and content.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I believe the idea to create a new engine and "wrap" the content of CoH around it.
The old engine is hard to update because it is so bug riddled and many of the original people who coded it left and didn't leave notes. Just look at the whole base system. |
Let me zoom out here and explain that more clearly, because there are multiple parts to what I'm saying:
Graphics: All graphics objects in CoH are standard 3D meshes covered by texture layers. When I say textures, I don't mean clothing - in fact, clothing is a 3D mesh covered by a texture as well. Any solid object in the game that you can't see through is covered by a texture. By and large, those objects and textures are compatible with just about every 3D game engine out there, maybe with a little conversion work.
"ZONES": The child of Graphics is Zones. That's the container in which the city zones, mission maps, etc, live, and which keep you from falling off into empty space. Those are proprietary 3D structures that are created with proprietary tools at Paragon Studios. The tools would have to be replicated before the zones could be displayed or edited. Otherwise you just have a jumble of buildings and enemy groups with no placement.
Mechanics: The MECHANICS of the game include animations, actions, power animations, etc. Those are a mixture of 3D motion, sprites, and particle effects. While those are usually compatible with other game engines, they will require heavy modification, because no two game engines use the same commands for these. In fact, with a new game engine, it's likely some of the effects will be lost forever, while new ones will become available.
Server Mechanics: This is the stuff that happens behind the scenes, and makes the game actually work so you can move around and fight stuff, so zones spawn, etc. Basically nothing would work without the "map server". This is NOT controlled by the game engine at all. It requires a separate system, which would have to be painstakingly duplicated.
Content: The missions and story in the game, this is by far the hardest part to transfer to a new game engine, because it depends on the user interface and NPC interactions to behave a certain way. With a new engine, those behaviors will almost certainly change. And CoH has lots, and lots of content, so this work will take an extremely long time.
I hope that helps everyone understand some of the complications of starting from scratch or replacing the game engine entirely.
Manga @ Triumph
"Meanwhile In The Halls Of Titan"...Titan Network Working To Save City Of Heroes
Save Paragon City! Efforts Coordination
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I wouldn't worry about that just yet. It's not really an obstacle to what we're talking about so far.
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Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
Oh, yeah. I didn't mean the actual process of creating a legal corporate entity; I meant the process of chartering it, establishing the hierarchy and all that so we have a robust description of the operating procedures. I have a bug's-eye-view of what that must be like, but contemplating the whole thing is pretty overwhelming.
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Manga @ Triumph
"Meanwhile In The Halls Of Titan"...Titan Network Working To Save City Of Heroes
Save Paragon City! Efforts Coordination
You have my axe...