CuppaManga

Mac-straordinaire
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  1. CuppaManga

    Confessions

    I did indeed get the Bug Hunter badge, but I never expected it.

    I started harassing NCSoft support, the community managers, and the devs from the day I read at this one rumor site that they were developing CoH for Mac, because I was determined to get into the testing group so it wouldn't suck. Because so many other Mac game clients *really* suck. I think Ghost Falcon was the one who got me in.

    From that point on, I wrote these weekly bug reports, sometimes with screenshots, detailing every bug I found from extreme on down. The high texture zones lag bug was one of my particular favorites to explore. I even built an entire SG base made to be as laggy as possible just so the devs could borrow it and test the issue (that means a base with lots of decoration, walls, and open space).

    But like I said, I did all that just so the Mac client wouldn't suck. Imagine my surprise when I got an email which said the devs nominated me for a Bug Hunter badge.

    So Castle was right all along; if you want a Bug Hunter badge, don't ask for it.

    Also, one night during a beta me and pohsyb got into a lengthy discussion about personal player name colors and RGB color sets that I think scared just about everyone in the Beta Testers channel, including some of the other devs.
  2. Those instructions are for the Windows version, D_R.

    On a Mac, you need to click the expand triangle next to City of Heroes in the NC Launcher, and double-click Properties. In the "Extra Command Line Parameters" area, enter the second part of what Dark_Respite suggested:

    -demoplay FILENAME

    Then close the Properties window, and launch City of Heroes. It will only play the demo file until you remove the contents of the "Extra Command Lines Parameters".
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scheol View Post
    Just got home now. We had a long talk and he said the venture capital market right now has been contracting, but after telling him about the situation with as many details as I have (which isn't a lot), he did say that investors either private or institutional should show signs of interest based on the fact that a lot of the infrastructure could potentially be maintained and a marketable product with a black track record acquired. He's going to try and get me a list of a few people and firms he knows of in the NorCal area but no promises. At the very least, some positive words from a big financial insider is good.
    If you and/or him manages to pull that off, PM me - it might come in handy combined with Titan Network plans.
  4. CuppaManga

    Not Goodbye

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Casual_Player View Post
    You know,

    I think I've let you all stew about my secret identity long enough.

    This is my (The Net's) original account.
    I can't hide anymore either. This is @Manga's original account.

    And the name CuppaManga was not originally intended to be permanent. I changed it after CuppaJo moved on, and the forums upgraded before I could change it back.
  5. Another important difference I've been repeating is that City of Heroes was not originally an in-house developed IP of NCSoft (it was developed by Cryptic). That might make them...even if only slightly...more likely to sell it.
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by _Pine_ View Post
    Is there anyway we can start from scratch, and make a new game called City of Titans or something? Using some of the tech and knowledge that the devs and other people have ammassed over the years of fiddling with the code?
    While possible in the long term, That's not realistic in the short term. Even if a pre-made game engine like Unity is used, it would take at LEAST a year just to get a working alpha or beta, with a release months later.

    That would be great for *having* a game, so it's good long term. But what it also means is losing most of the City of Heroes subscriber base in the process. They may still be hungry for a game like this a year later, but when they already paid for a year subscription to something else, it's going to be tougher to get them to jump in. Not impossible, but tougher.

    It also means that a new game will have much bigger shoes to fill, because it would have to be even more modern looking and more functional to draw enough people in and make it worthwhile.

    Also to everyone in this thread: I'd like to remind you that educating someone has a much higher value than pushing them away, especially right now. We have one common enemy; stay together and stay focused.
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Killerkitty View Post
    If it happens in a blue moon, cool, but it's horrible if people put all efforts into this and then people are left with nothing having trusted in "Tony" to do everything for them. Don't let that happen, that's all I'm saying. My post before the last wasn't even directed at Tony, but the cult of "NCsoft/Tony will save us" is ridiculous.
    It's not just TonyV, quite a few of us are working on it. We have him representing us because it makes more sense to consolidate our efforts, he's willing, and most everyone knows who he is and trust him. If he changes his mind and decides he can't do it, one of the rest of us will take over. We're going to see this through until we succeed, fail, or someone else saves CoH before we do.

    We have been given no authority by the player population; we're doing this because someone has to, and it may as well be us.
  8. I did a lot of thinking about why NCSoft would just close down Paragon Studios without any warning. But if you really think about it, maybe there *was* a warning.

    When Apple released Mountain Lion (OS X 10.8) in mid July, a warning was posted by Zwillinger to the Mac Users forum that the NCSoft Launcher crashes on some Macs running it. Since then, nobody has been able to contact NCSoft to get a fix for it. It's like the people working on the Launcher for Mac just vanished. As it turns out, they probably did.

    That clue leads me to believe that in the two months since then, NCSoft has been letting people go because it's so low on cash, it can't make payroll, and can't get a loan to fill the gap. When this past weekend came along, they made the sudden decision that to save the company (NCSoft) and be able to pays its workers, it had to take the money out of the pot feeding Paragon Studios and City of Heroes. Meaning they were all fired, and the game was to be shut down immediately.

    I can only speculate from that point, somewhat gratefully perhaps, that someone working at Paragon may have begged for leniency for us players, so we would be able to have a chance to say goodbye, and talked NCSoft into giving us 3 months.


    Some other semi-random thoughts I have about the contents of this thread, some good and some bad:

    - SOE making a bid for City of Heroes on a holiday weekend sounds more than a little suspiciously like a wishful thinking rumor. If it's real, however, the way it plays out could be interesting.

    - I would also prefer a smaller studio who would appreciate the smaller profits, or an independent Paragon Studios, but when the ship is sinking, you don't say no to any rescue.

    - SOE, if it is indeed making a bid, would not spend several million to bury the City of Heroes IP when it's as good as dead already. They could just let NCSoft kill it and bury it for free.

    - City of Heroes is more likely to be sold by NCSoft than any other title they killed, because it is not originally an NCSoft property, and they don't really want it. They bought it from Cryptic. That means there is no reason for them to try and protect the IP unless they already have a sequel in the works.
  9. TonyV, I'd like to add one more difference: City of Heroes was purchased, not created by NCSoft. So if they have pride issues, they could want it sold and not hanging over them.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xenos View Post
    If saving COH is a longshot, saving the Mac client is probably even more unlikely, but I think it would be great if some of us could poke their heads in over there. Folks like CuppaManga have done a lot of poking around the code that could be useful in any case, and there will be need for support in all sorts of areas (web design, media, legal...). So head on over and throw your name into the hat. Nothings wrong with taking a longshot.
    Big surprise, I'm involved in the Titan Network save CoH movement as well.

    Worry not - if by miracle or design we can pull this off, I will do everything I can to fix the Mac client, as soon as I'm sure we're in the clear.
  11. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    Couple that with the fact that CO stands to get a nice boost from CoH closing, and I still fail to see how buying CoH would make any kind of economic sense for PWI.
    Three words: Existing Subscriber Base. Since CoH is a hybrid f2p model, that's a particularly valuable thing.
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
    Perfect World owns Champions Online currently and are parents to any licensing rights of Cryptic Studios.

    City of Heroes is their direct competition.
    It doesn't prevent them from owning both titles, however. Actually since they bought Champions too, the two would be on even footing within the company.
  13. Remember that "Cryptic Studios" icon that used to be everywhere in the game? It was there because some of the characters, including Statesman, were still owned by them. I suppose at some point NCSoft decided they didn't want to pay the license fees anymore, so they had to remove the last of the Cryptic characters from the game.

    Which makes the sudden "sunsetting" even more strange, because NC was asking so much work to be put in the game to free it from its licensing agreements and make it independent. They made an effort to spin off Paragon Studios and make it autonomous, and encouraged them to not slow down, but accelerate the issue release schedule. They haven't tried this hard for *any* other game in their stable. And after all that they just cut it off? All I'll say is, I don't understand the logic behind the decision.

    Ok, that's not exactly true, the only logic that makes sense is if NCSoft is days, weeks away from closing its doors from lack of finances, and their only choice is to immediately stop anything that costs money - whether its profitable in the long run or not, because there wouldn't be a long run.

    Actually I'm counting on that possibility. Because if that's true, it also explains why they haven't sold the game to another company, or even entertained offers before now (they didn't have the time). And it *may* also make them more open to offers, so they get an infusion of cash, and they divest themselves of the expense. Yes, I actually thought this through.

    I also thought of the possibility that one offer draws *more*. Because CoH is a profitable game with a somewhat healthy population, if there is one announcement of intent to purchase, there may be more. There are several software companies out there who specialize in revitalizing and/or keeping alive older titles, like Lord of the Rings Online. I know some of you may not like some of them (Perfect World could possibly be a bidder as well, maybe even Blizzard, though they generally prefer in-house titles) but at this point? Anywhere but here is better.

    Of course, as I've said before, this all depends on whether NCSoft wants to let go. It's conceivable that they're killing CoH because they planned to replace it, only they don't have the money now, so they'll sit on the property until they do. We could try to talk them out of that, or into some sort of licensing arrangement, though that's not a certainty either. Until we know for sure, we know nothing but possibilities. But possibility is also what we're hoping for.
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
    Sorry, but I don't see a VC touching this. They're not interested in the slow but steady return, they're looking for the home run.
    You might possibly have a point. But that's Step 3, and we haven't finished Step 1 yet. First we have to see if NCSoft is even willing to deal. Then we have to see if we can raise funds via crowdsourcing. If those fail, then we would need venture capital.

    It's also possible a venture capitalist would not fund a purchase of existing CoH, but would fund the development of a replacement game. That happens all the time - with car leases for example. The dealer very often refuses to finance a lease buyout, but they will finance a new car easily.

    The most important thing to remember right now is people (the players). People make a market, and they're all *right here*. No matter which approach we take - if we can - we've already accomplished the hardest part. Trust me, I've tried marketing software nobody has heard of.

    A *market* is most of what a venture capitalist is worried about, because they know that's the hardest part. Since we have one right here, waiting and worrying...it doesn't make funding a sure thing, but it increases our chances astronomically.

    Anyway, back to Step 1.
  15. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    The issue, stated baldly, is accountability. And that's something that has to be clear as soon as the funding gates are open.
    True, but we're not there yet. Step 1 is finding out if NCSoft is even willing to deal. After *that* is when a corporation is formed, and all the corporate officers are listed etc. (actually they have to be by law when you file an application for a corporation)
  16. Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeProgrammer View Post
    I made a 3D model editor in one month's time. That's kind of similar.
    That could come in handy someday.
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
    A rebirth of CoH as a player run game would make a lot of news - and not just on gaming sites - it'd be a story with so many hooks, and the word would get around pretty fast.
    Even if it does we're playing with dispensable income here. I'd imagine quite a few people who were playing CoH would subscribe to something else after it shuts down, and then you're fighting on a playing field with other brand-new games. Which means the new-CoH had better be much more awesome to draw people back in.
  18. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    Oh, yeah. I didn't mean the actual process of creating a legal corporate entity; I meant the process of chartering it, establishing the hierarchy and all that so we have a robust description of the operating procedures. I have a bug's-eye-view of what that must be like, but contemplating the whole thing is pretty overwhelming.
    I wouldn't worry about that just yet. It's not really an obstacle to what we're talking about so far.
  19. Quote:
    Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
    I believe the idea to create a new engine and "wrap" the content of CoH around it.

    The old engine is hard to update because it is so bug riddled and many of the original people who coded it left and didn't leave notes.

    Just look at the whole base system.
    Actually that's backwards; the game engine is *easy* to update, or even replace. The question is whether it will be compatible with the old mechanics and content.

    Let me zoom out here and explain that more clearly, because there are multiple parts to what I'm saying:

    Graphics: All graphics objects in CoH are standard 3D meshes covered by texture layers. When I say textures, I don't mean clothing - in fact, clothing is a 3D mesh covered by a texture as well. Any solid object in the game that you can't see through is covered by a texture. By and large, those objects and textures are compatible with just about every 3D game engine out there, maybe with a little conversion work.

    "ZONES": The child of Graphics is Zones. That's the container in which the city zones, mission maps, etc, live, and which keep you from falling off into empty space. Those are proprietary 3D structures that are created with proprietary tools at Paragon Studios. The tools would have to be replicated before the zones could be displayed or edited. Otherwise you just have a jumble of buildings and enemy groups with no placement.

    Mechanics: The MECHANICS of the game include animations, actions, power animations, etc. Those are a mixture of 3D motion, sprites, and particle effects. While those are usually compatible with other game engines, they will require heavy modification, because no two game engines use the same commands for these. In fact, with a new game engine, it's likely some of the effects will be lost forever, while new ones will become available.

    Server Mechanics: This is the stuff that happens behind the scenes, and makes the game actually work so you can move around and fight stuff, so zones spawn, etc. Basically nothing would work without the "map server". This is NOT controlled by the game engine at all. It requires a separate system, which would have to be painstakingly duplicated.

    Content: The missions and story in the game, this is by far the hardest part to transfer to a new game engine, because it depends on the user interface and NPC interactions to behave a certain way. With a new engine, those behaviors will almost certainly change. And CoH has lots, and lots of content, so this work will take an extremely long time.

    I hope that helps everyone understand some of the complications of starting from scratch or replacing the game engine entirely.
  20. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
    Well, what part of the current version of CoH would you be afraid of losing with a new engine?
    The players, mostly. There's no way a game like CoH can be made in 3 months. By the time it's done, the players will be long gone somewhere else, and out of contact. Also, possibly some other game company with more people and money will have beat us to it.
  21. Quote:
    Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
    I much prefer the idea of generating a new game engine vs trying to license the old one
    GG, Voodoo - Let me present this idea: The game engine can be updated, it just hasn't been. Anything can be updated. It's actually more expensive and riskier to start over because you don't really know if the new game will have the same appeal with all of us.
  22. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    We could also just flat up incorporate a new CoH entity now with the *goal* of acquiring the IP for it, but I don't have the legal backbone to do that either.
    Oddly enough I've done that before, and it's basically just filling out a form and paying a fee. Voila, in a few days you get your articles of incorporation in the mail. At least that's how it works in Florida.

    The tricky part is creating one company to license the IP, and then another to operate it - because you can't call a company City of Heroes LLC (for example) before you own the name.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    It's not just the box'n'ship angle we have to work with here; publishers are the 'banks' of the gaming industry. They provide capital, stability, and usually other resources (technical, community management, etc) to the development studio. I mean, sure, it's kind of a protection racket, but... there's an awful lot of thugs out there.
    It *can* be done without that. The reason it isn't is because a lot of the time it's cheaper and easier to pay a publisher a percentage and let them handle all the dirty work. This is something that can be worried about after obtaining the IP and forming a corporation. It should not take any additional fundraising capital.
  23. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jetpack View Post
    My fear is that NCSoft doesn't have any interest in selling the IP. They may prefer to shelf it in case they want to use it later. I doubt people would come, but they may not get that.
    That's entirely possible, especially if they planned to make a new game with the CoH property but don't currently have the money. The only way to find out is to ask.
  24. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    Titan Network being incorporated. Are you guys? This is important because you're going to need to own something and it can't belong to any individual member of TN. I'm srs. The other option is for another incorporated body to step in here and TN to take on an organizational role.
    Yes, actually, I do have an incorporated entity. But, beyond the fundraising, it won't really help, because for multiple reasons it would make more sense to incorporate CoH as its own entity. (not a lawyer btw, researched this stuff)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
    Starting another campaign to find a publisher willing to take on the project. This is the real money angle. We'd have to convince them that we can make this profitable over a year or so, but we'd need a lot of money upfront.
    Publishers are not important anymore for MMO's because of internet software delivery.


    Also, yes, I have a few resources I'm willing to contribute to this plan, if only TonyV would answer my PM. :P I'd rather work with him than alongside, because there's more negotiating power that way.
  25. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
    I agree that you should at least try.

    There's also a remote chance that NCSoft might be forced to liquidate its assets at some point in the future. It might be a good idea to attempt to be ready to strike at that sort of opportunity if it ever arises.
    Just to note - this is a very, very narrow window. If the CoH IP can't be secured before the end of the year, the players and Paragon staff are gone, and it's going to be tough to get them back.

    That's also why developing a replacement game, reverse engineering the servers, etc are not the most viable option. They would take way too long.