Who is the most evil villain in CoX?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 11:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Sorry. Random thought.
Why didn't the Devs think to include Westin Phipps Praetorian counterpart into the GR content. He would've made a great Responsibility Loyalist contact.
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
[QUOTE=cursedsorcerer;4304600]I had a thought recently. The CoX universe is filled with deviants who run the gamut between truly evil, to bizarre, facepalm-worthy Saturday Morning cartoon villain status. However, who do you think is the most evil?
[QUOTE]
I think Statesman is or was the most evil. At least his alter ego Reichman knew he was evil and was honest about it. Tyrant and States are about the same except one just happen to be a head of state. Both gloss over their deeds as doing good, both have very similar mannerisms, and both think they are above everyone else. Evil.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
My vote goes for Calvin Scott. Whatever you may think of the resistance, the man leading it {especially in the light of First Ward} is little more than a charismatic, vengeance-driven monster.
Quote:
So MARTy is evil like Macavity? An evil whose involvement is suspected even though it can never be detected?|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
MARTy...
|
"Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw -
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair:
For when they reach the scene of crime - Macavity's not there!"
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Definately a case of art immitating life here |
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Ms. Liberty. Managing to get a paramilitary force OK'd, deploying it to attack not only the citizens of a foreign country (where she has no authority) but people in her own city (since when is the appropriate response to a baseball bat or dagger a minigun or flamethrower?) and not have anyone bat an eye.
|
Quote:
I suspect MARTy's involvement everytime I roll a common after an iTrial run I totally rocked -_-
|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
So MARTy is evil like Macavity? An evil whose involvement is suspected even though it can never be detected?
"Macavity's a Mystery Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw - For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law. He's the bafflement of Scotland Yard, the Flying Squad's despair: For when they reach the scene of crime - Macavity's not there!" |
Quote:
In my opinion, that just means that Phipps has a sanctioned channel for his evil. It's not at all clear that Arachnos specifically asks him to be as cruel as he is. Phipps doesn't just hire you to do evil things - he revels in them. He often goes on in glee about the anticipation of things he will do as he gives you instructions and then again when you complete them when/if you do it. While his job for Arachnos is brutal and Arachnos is evil for even wanting someone in the role Phipps fills, he takes explicit glee in what they want him to do, and takes his soul crushing to a personal level that it's unlikely Arachnos specifically needs him to.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Though Westin Phipps is sadistic and manipulative, he is nonetheless carrying out orders given to him by Arachnos. Someone else had the evil and he just takes delight in getting it done; that doesn't really make him the "source of the evil" as it were. Left to his own devices, Phipps wouldn't have the power or resources to do much evil, so I wouldn't put him very high on the "most evil villain" chart.
|
Moreover, it's completely false that he only is "evil by proxy" on the basis of having the player characters do all his dirty work. He has you kidnap people, but he orchestrates their torture. You rescue a Fortunata spy, and he personally has her killed to "keep things tidy" - something your character has no knowledge is coming. He gloats about what he's going to do with a mother and blind daughters that come to him as the proprietor of Haven House. Yes, you poisoned them, which is unquestionably evil, but it wasn't clear that you'd be handing them to him as a result - killing people or making them very sick is bad, but giving them to Phipps is almost certainly worse.
There's no question that willingly associating with Phipps is an act of evil. All the things I've described above mean it's clear the man is a sadist of the highest order, and after you do a couple of jobs for him, you should have no doubt that continuing to do so will blacken your soul by association. However, I consider him the most personally evil character in the game's lore.
Most other villains we see have ulterior motives of power, and a number of them are even the sort that makes them believe what they do is for a greater good. I would put Nemesis, Lord Recluse and especially Tyrant in this category. There is no question that these characters all do evil things, and all of them have done evil that affected millions if not billions of people, making the scope of their evil acts very large.
There is a question of whether "more evil" is defined by quantity of harm done or the nature of the intent. Personally, I consider Phipps more evil than any of those three, because they commit evil out of callous indifference to human life - their goal is not specifically to cause harm, but they cause harm as a means to end. Phipps' goal is specifically to cause harm. Yes, that harm is a means to an end for Arachnos in order to maintain control of the Rogue Isles, but Phipps does the job for them because he enjoys it. For him, it's an end unto itself that he has the excuse to do because Arachnos needs that means, and to me, actively enjoying the harm makes him more evil, even if he affects less people total than, say, Nemesis. If I ran Hell, they'd both be in the deep end of the fire pool, but Phipps would be deeper.
Peter Themari is similar in this regard. He seems to revel in twisting people to evil. His scope is a bit smaller than Phipps', and he doesn't seem quite as gleeful about it, but he clearly enjoys watching other people's lives fold underneath them so that they turn to evil - and him. It's not just a means to an end, he clearly considers it at least a partial end unto itself.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
If only that were true.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I think that, for as long as the thread has gone, this really sums up my position quite well. I don't buy people who "want to be evil" because that reduces them to Saturday Morning Cartoons, which is where Westin Phipps is, though perhaps less Evil Con Carne and more Ren and Stimpy. Nobody "wants" to be evil, some people simply are because of how they choose to go about achieving what they want to achieve.
|
There are people who actively revel in harming other people, and doing it for the simple sake of doing it. That you think such people do not really exist does explain why you prefer to measure "more evil" by the number of people affected by evil deeds. I know such people are real, though thankfully rare. It's common to find them in places where the other sort of evil - what I like to refer to as "callous evil" is systemic, because they're allowed to carry out their sadistic ways in service to whatever power structure puts them to use.
Both are evil - the people who enjoy harming others and the people who knowingly employ such people. But of the two, I would reserve the deeper hatred, if ever so slightly, for the people who actively enjoy bringing harm, rather than those who think they need to bring harm to achieve power, profit or whatever.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The most evil villain in CoX is which ever Dev or group of Devs thinks it's a good idea to just have 3 regular TAoE recipe sets...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Mother Mayhem because everything she did over the course of GR, First Ward, and the Trials was just ridiculous.
The problem with Mot and Hamidon is that they're less sadistically malicious and more "force of nature" now. Hamidon's insane to a level even over Praetor Tilman, and he was even before he morphed himself into an amoeba. And Mot was just a spirit of Death that went over the line.
My vote is for Positron, all those poor heroes pummeled and he stands there watching, unhelping simply because it does not net him any xp.
I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
Quote:
Original Hamidon, as in the person, seems to fit what I understand to be a sociopath. The Wikipedia definition is...|
Originally Posted by Issen
The problem with Mot and Hamidon is that they're less sadistically malicious and more "force of nature" now. Hamidon's insane to a level even over Praetor Tilman, and he was even before he morphed himself into an amoeba. And Mot was just a spirit of Death that went over the line.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Sociopathy is the result of social conditioning which leads to a lack of natural human values. It refers strictly to a social condition where a person knows, yet has been socially conditioned to disregard, the intrinsic human values which are believed to be universal.
|
Whenever Hamidon first stopped caring about humans as individuals, he certainly became evil. It's not the type of evil where he rejoices in pain and suffering, but it's evil nonetheless.
That actually reminds me. As an organization they're more diffuse than most of the examples of evil we're talking about here, because they practically lack a clearly visibly leader, but in terms of inflicting uncool fates on people, the Circle of Thorns have to be up there. Yes, Nemesis is responsible for the deaths of millions of people via the Rikti War. Hamidon has killed many people and shattered huge numbers of lives. Lord Recluse has ruled atop a pit of despair, violence and slavery for several generations. And Tyrant tried to enslave the very minds his entire metropolis' populous to create a perfectly pacified society, and did something utterly terrible when faced with failure.
But for all the evil that these folks inflicted on those they oppressed or who were simply collateral damage, the things they did to their victims ended in the worst case when the people died. The exception is Hamidon, but as far as we know, once people are "devoured", they don't suffer - they're happy with their new state.
But not the CoT. Oh, no. When the CoT take your body, they cast your soul into an eternal void. They don't kill you. They damn you to eternal nothingness.
This is a setting where the lore explicitly assumes an unspecified afterlife. Everyone has a soul, and it goes somewhere when you die. (Souls that don't or can't leave become ghosts, which we see and sometimes fight many examples of.) So by dismissing souls into a void this way, they aren't just effectively killing the person (by removing their personality from the living world). They're barring them from whatever afterlife they would have warranted for all time, and replacing it with an endless sensory deprivation tank. Now, depending on your assumptions for this unspecified afterlife, for evil people, that might actually be something of an upgrade. But the same assumptions would lead one to expect this to be a horrific injustice to the souls of innocent, or at least fairly ordinary folk.
Several story arcs about the CoT tell us that soul might end up stored in a crystal. If not, it ends up cast into the void. (Sometimes being stored in a crystal just defers being cast into the void.) It seems likely that only interesting souls are kept in crystals - souls the CoT think will somehow be useful later. The everyday people whose bodies we see the CoT stealing in, let's see... King's Row, Steel Canyon, Perez Park, Founder's Falls, and even Portal Corp in PI (and that's ignoring the ones in the Rogue Isles)? None of them probably warrant being stored. So the most ordinary of bystanders? To the void with them.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's not how the Trial rewards work - there's no scale of success - you either fail to do enough and get 10 threads, or you do enough to qualify for a random reward roll.
|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I suspect MARTy's involvement everytime I roll a common after an iTrial run I totally rocked -_-
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
So I've been told... I still say it's a conspiracy, and MARTy's definitely involved -_-
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's not how the Trial rewards work - there's no scale of success - you either fail to do enough and get 10 threads, or you do enough to qualify for a random reward roll.
|
It really rather depends upon your definition of evil.
If you're talking about evil in the sense of absolute amounts of pain, death and suffering caused by any one character within the City of Heroes' canon, then there is a clear, unquestionable, winner: Rularuu.
Rularuu is both an Eldritch Abomination and an Omnicidal Maniac, a creature that we are told has "absorbed whole dimensions".
Let's think through the implications of that for a moment. We're talking here about a creature that has literally consumed entire universes, plural, presumably inhabited ones, and consumed the information/energy within.
Effectively, we're talking about a creature that has violated and eaten the souls/minds of countless trillions of sentient beings across multiple parallel universes, out of nothing more than simple avarice - he doesn't need the energy/information to live, he simply desires more information, more power, and will put this desire above the lives of literally uncountable innocents.
Across entire universes, an unknowable number of innocent creatures have looked up into a murdered sky to see the light drained from their suns, a cry of horror stillborn on their lips as they feel the very essence of themselves enslaved and consumed.
Recluse is responsible for the death, suffering and enslavement of many tens of thousands, Nemesis' bodycount possibly racks up into the billions, but they're both babies next to Rularuu.
However, if on the other hand you want to be less utilitarian in how you approach good vs evil, if you want to judge how evil a character in the CoH canon is by the "squick factor", the moral intuition, the feeling of wrongness, the urge of outrage, then others are better choices. Westen Phipps is the most often cited example, but there are other examples to choose from. There are the sadistic (Phipps), the insane (Mother Mayhem, Dr Aeon), the sociopathic and amoral (too many to mention), the souless (Mako, Ghost Widow or Johnny Sonata) and the misguided (Scirroco, and arguably Recluse); whichever causes you that moment of repugnance is a good enough choice.
-Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
Quote:
You're overlooking the obvious.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
It's like that aphorism "one death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths is a statistic."
Phipps' crimes are more grounded in reality and thus more relatable than the comic book histrionics of many higher profile and objectively "worse" villains. Nemesis is an impossible cartoon. People like Phipps exist, right now, all around us. |
If you think evil is best defined by hurting a single individual or someone and their family, Phipps has it covered.
If you think that evil is best defined by destroying hope, Phipps has it covered.
If you think it's more about the intent, he has it covered.
If you think it's more about results, he has it covered.
If you think it's about taking joy in inflicting hurt on others, he has it covered.
If you think that it's all about ruining or destroying the lives of others, Phipps has it covered, or can't do it but does as much as he can.
He's like the friggin Batman of villains. He's not superpowered (or maybe he is) but uses the appearance of poverty to lure in the weak, helpless, and desperate, and maximize the evil he can do.
In short, he hits the sweet spot in every single category.
Westin Phipps could never be given power on a scale of Lord Recluse because he'd USE IT.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Quote:
Phipps is so horrible that he's the one arc I refuse to do.
|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
You're overlooking the obvious.
If you think evil is best defined by hurting a single individual or someone and their family, Phipps has it covered. If you think that evil is best defined by destroying hope, Phipps has it covered. If you think it's more about the intent, he has it covered. If you think it's more about results, he has it covered. If you think it's about taking joy in inflicting hurt on others, he has it covered. If you think that it's all about ruining or destroying the lives of others, Phipps has it covered, or can't do it but does as much as he can. He's like the friggin Batman of villains. He's not superpowered (or maybe he is) but uses the appearance of poverty to lure in the weak, helpless, and desperate, and maximize the evil he can do. In short, he hits the sweet spot in every single category. Westin Phipps could never be given power on a scale of Lord Recluse because he'd USE IT. |
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
Quote:
Someone say Architect Entertainment Arc?
|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
Westin Phipps could never be given power on a scale of Lord Recluse because he'd USE IT.
|
Quote:
Whatever you think of the Resistance's methods, Calvin Scott wouldn't make the top 25 most evil villains in City of Heroes. Everyone is entitled to an opinion of their own, of course. But IMO, that contention is absurd, especially in light of what we learn about him during the Praetorian storyline.
|
Originally Posted by Quinch
My vote goes for Calvin Scott. Whatever you may think of the resistance, the man leading it {especially in the light of First Ward} is little more than a charismatic, vengeance-driven monster.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I don't think evil is best defined that way.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
You're overlooking the obvious.
If you think evil is best defined by hurting a single individual or someone and their family, Phipps has it covered. |
Quote:
| If you think that evil is best defined by destroying hope, Phipps has it covered. |
Quote:
| If you think it's more about the intent, he has it covered. |
Quote:
| If you think it's more about results, he has it covered. |
Quote:
| If you think it's about taking joy in inflicting hurt on others, he has it covered. |
Quote:
| If you think that it's all about ruining or destroying the lives of others, Phipps has it covered, or can't do it but does as much as he can. |
In my opinion, Tyrant is easily the most evil villain in City of Heroes. All the suffering that he causes and he supposedly is in it for the 'greater good'. He allows that team of monsters he calls Praetors to act as they will. He was willing to enslave the people of two Earths. He consigns little girls into slavery and a loss of their individuality for the crime of having been born psychic. This meglomaniac was willing to steal the souls of his own people to maintain his power.
Phipps would have been nothing more than a PPD stooge in Praetoria. Evil he may be, but he's more pathetic than evil.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I just finished the First Ward story arcs for the first time in a while. Mother Mayhem is still the most singularly non-deific evil I've run across. The flashbacks are...enough to make me want to run M.O.M over and over to defeat her until the dirty sensation washes off.
Quote:
I have a pretty thick skin, but those arcs really were disturbing. I had forgot about them (blocked them out). You may make me change my mind. |
Originally Posted by Hqnk
I just finished the First Ward story arcs for the first time in a while. Mother Mayhem is still the most singularly non-deific evil I've run across. The flashbacks are...enough to make me want to run M.O.M over and over to defeat her until the dirty sensation washes off.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
I think you are confusing actions with intent.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
In my opinion, Tyrant is easily the most evil villain in City of Heroes. All the suffering that he causes and he supposedly is in it for the 'greater good'. He allows that team of monsters he calls Praetors to act as they will. He was willing to enslave the people of two Earths. He consigns little girls into slavery and a loss of their individuality for the crime of having been born psychic. This meglomaniac was willing to steal the souls of his own people to maintain his power.
Phipps would have been nothing more than a PPD stooge in Praetoria. Evil he may be, but he's more pathetic than evil. |
Tyrant's actions are evil. No question about it.
Phipps' actions AND intentions are evil (and destructive) in a way that no other NPC in CoH can match.
Is consistently self-deceiving, with the intent of avoiding guilt and maintaining a self-image of perfection? Yes, Phipps is that.
Deceives others as a consequence of their own self-deception? Phipps has made this an art form.
Projects his or her evils and sins onto very specific targets, scapegoating others while appearing normal with everyone else ("their insensitivity toward him was selective")? Phipps to the core.
Commonly hates with the pretense of love, for the purposes of self-deception as much as deception of others? Phipps to the core.
Abuses political (emotional) power ("the imposition of one's will upon others by overt or covert coercion")? Cole & Phipps are equally guilty of this.
Maintains a high level of respectability and lies incessantly in order to do so? Cole & Phipps are equally guilty of this.
Is consistent in his or her sins. Evil persons are characterized not so much by the magnitude of their sins, but by their consistency (of destructiveness)? Nemesis, Hamidon, and Tyrant aren't consistent in this respect. Phipps is.
Is unable to think from the viewpoint of their victim? Other than to think how much pain his actions cause, this is true of Phipps in a way that Nemesis, Tyrant, or Hamidon can't achieve.
Has a covert intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury? Most of the big villains suffer from this, but Phipps goes out of his way to make sure that any criticism is deflected onto others.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
This confuses me. Why is degree to which one is evil a function of whether or not you can execute your evil intentions without help?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Oppressing people with the apparatus of Arachnos at your back isn't all that impressive to me. Captain Mako has done worse than Phipps and he did it himself, not through functionaries.
<snip> Phipps would have been nothing more than a PPD stooge in Praetoria. Evil he may be, but he's more pathetic than evil. |
Mako is a metahuman, presented as one of the more powerful beings in the game world. Ultimately, in any world (real or fictional), superior might trumps enforcment of rules, including behavioral standards. Mako can sow death largely at will because there are limited numbers of people/beings/organizations who can stop him, including Lord Recluse and Arachnos.
Phipps is not, as far as we know, a metahuman, so he lacks this degree of self-empowerment. But his lack of ability to brush aside behavioral norms through sheer might own does not lessen the degree to which he is evil. If he did not have Arachnos at his back he would certainly achieve less, but he would still be a terribly and willfully evil individual. He would just have to hide it better.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork