Who is the most evil villain in CoX?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 11:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Well, indeed for my definition of evil, intent is key. if you look at big villians in this game, just about everyone is something of a mass murderer and it seems to boil down to a numbers game. recluse kills/ enslaves the world at the end of the destined arc, crey kills and enslaves clones of heroes, the thing in baron zoria's body indiscriminately takes peoples souls and fills their bodies with its followers, and has mass demonic sacrifice rituals, mot is mot, nem killed off a few dimensions for various reasons, initiated a war with a innocent dimensions with untold casualties, and bound rather than killed rularru, rularru is more a force of nature, but still seemed to destroy a planet, a portal mission has an alt version of your hero killing off an entire world(haven;t run it in a while, i kinda wish that if they havent yet, they expanded this particular bit of lore to let you fight and beat alt you and save that world), vahz chops people up regularly for his experiments, hami either kills or mutates people into slaves so numbers are just that, numbers, so many have them that its hard to see a division line. phipps is weak, but he is happily , purely evil, the evil isn't a byproduct of a greater ambition, it is a purpose in itsself to prey on the weak and harmless. It is true that recluse bears the responsibility for allowing him to be like this, all in the name of breaking the will of the helpless, but he seems to formulate his own plans quite well.
|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
Most of the bad things Nemesis has done probably have included in there somewhere stuff on a similar level to the bad things Phipps has done (or incited). e.g. the poisoning of small kids - given Nemesis' weaponry tends to involve fire, explosives, and poison gas, it's pretty likely his enterprises have included the poisoning of children somewhere along the way - he may not have specifically decided that he'd like to poison some children today, but he's gone ahead with mass murder knowing that children would be poisoned as part of it. And those children will have suffered just as much as the kid(s) Phipps poisoned.
The main question here is whether the scale and indifference of Nemesis' evil trumps the sadistic delight Phipps takes in his own. (Personally I rate Nemesis as the most evil, as the suffering of the victims is pretty similar in either case, but he's got *way* more victims and not just due to success rates, his plans necessitate it - the reasons why he's inflicting that suffering do nothing to reduce it. I think Phipps is *nastier*, but his overall evil is dwarfed by Nemesis) |
Quote:
But doesn't the fact that all his crimes don't actually serve any real pupose make him pretty bad?
|
Originally Posted by Grendar
Phipps doesn't come close imo.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
As I understand it, Nemesis is racist but it is not his motivation. He does not go out of his way to attack black people, he simply considers them less than human (as did many at his time). Nemesis does not hate african people just like he does not hate trees.|
Originally Posted by GadgetDon
That mission never sat right with me. Because in both arcs and other missions, race has never come up as a major issue. Nemesis is plenty evil, done terrible things. But from every other mission, Nemesis sees the world a "There's Nemesis, and then there's ants", with no real difference between the ants. If he was that racist, wouldn't it show up more often?
Here's the writeup on it link "It got me thinking: why didn't he just threaten to use that device here? From the records you found, it looks like he was planning this for some time. I think I figured out why he chose that world too. According to Portal Corporation files, through some twist of fate the population of that world was mostly of African descent. To Nemesis, their skin color alone made the lot of them less than human. That monster probably didn't think twice about murdering them." Nemesis didn't think twice about starting a highly destructive war against a dimension of peaceful aliens, didn't think twice about overwriting the minds of those aliens, Unai has other missions with worlds that a version of Nemesis wiped out completely or nearly. Outside of this one comment by Maxwell Christopher, Nemesis is depicted as an equal opportunity mass murderer. And even in this comment, Maxwell is making a guess. "They were black, Nemesis used his doomsday device on them, therefore Nemesis killed them because they were black". Which sounds a lot like the "post hoc ergo proper hoc" logical fallacy. There's another mission with Maxwell where Nemesis has a device to control the mind of anyone he wants, but Maxwell says that Nemesis doesn't use it because he just wants to be loved. That also seems out of character with everything else written about Nemesis. Nemesis could work as a raging psychotic racist. But based on what we've known he's done, what he's said when confronted or when monologuing, there's no sign of it. |
To him, that other dimension was uninhabited. But it was infested by vermin. So Nemesis wiped them out and started setting up colonies.
To the larger point of this thread, it really depends on how one measures evil. By its results (body count) or its morality (sadism is worse than misguided authoritarianism and so on).
By the first measurement, I would say: Cole, Praetorian Hamidon and Nemesis are up there. Mot could be too depending on how the "releasing the devoured" worked out - did they come back to life ? And Recluse, if we count the futures he is building.
By the second, Phipps, Crosscut, Praetor Duncan, Master Midnight. Mother Mayhem if her insanity is not considered an extenuating circumstance.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
Protean.
That rat-******* ruined my cloning facility.
And what's with all this hate for Westin Phipps?
He runs an orphanage! He's a very sweet man.
And what would you do, haul him off to jail?
He's the only thing those poor orphans have...
You call yourselves heroes. For shame.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Quote:
Serial killers don't get released because of it, so I don't think she'd be able to use it as an excuse |
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
Mother Mayhem if her insanity is not considered an extenuating circumstance.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
The way I look at it is there's basically 3 components to a person's evil: their intent/motives, the severity of the suffering/harm they inflict, and how widespread the suffering/harm is.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
Well, indeed for my definition of evil, intent is key. if you look at big villians in this game, just about everyone is something of a mass murderer and it seems to boil down to a numbers game. recluse kills/ enslaves the world at the end of the destined arc, crey kills and enslaves clones of heroes, the thing in baron zoria's body indiscriminately takes peoples souls and fills their bodies with its followers, and has mass demonic sacrifice rituals, mot is mot, nem killed off a few dimensions for various reasons, initiated a war with a innocent dimensions with untold casualties, and bound rather than killed rularru, rularru is more a force of nature, but still seemed to destroy a planet, a portal mission has an alt version of your hero killing off an entire world(haven;t run it in a while, i kinda wish that if they havent yet, they expanded this particular bit of lore to let you fight and beat alt you and save that world), vahz chops people up regularly for his experiments, hami either kills or mutates people into slaves so numbers are just that, numbers, so many have them that its hard to see a division line. phipps is weak, but he is happily , purely evil, the evil isn't a byproduct of a greater ambition, it is a purpose in itsself to prey on the weak and harmless. It is true that recluse bears the responsibility for allowing him to be like this, all in the name of breaking the will of the helpless, but he seems to formulate his own plans quite well.
|
Obviously which of those a person places most significance on will dramatically affect who they consider the most evil overall.
For me intent is the least of those - I more or less define evil as what someone is willing to do to achieve their goals. The indifference Nemesis displays as he wipes out an entire world - that the inhabitants are of no consequence to him at all - is a different type of evil than Phipps' sadism, but it's no less terrible in my view.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Emperor Cole, while decidedly a villain prior to Going Rogue, I firmly believe has been retconed and at present is motivated by a convoluted sense of what is right--he is not evil. Though he forcefully maintains law by military power and a global brainwashing network, his reasons are nonetheless to protect the people from the Hamidon and to defeat the Coming Storm.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Meh, evil is all about perspective. The truly evil ones are the ones that think they're doing good while they enact genocide and other atrocities upon the globe.
|
"Whether or not good ends can justify evil means, they certainly cannot make evil means any less evil."
Quote:
To be found guilty of a crime, there's a require known as (I'm probably going to butcher the spelling) mens rea, or guilty mind. You need the ability to appreciate that what you've done is wrong. The Insanity Defense is arguing that, at the time, the perpetrator was unable to know that what they were doing is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Serial killers don't get released because of it, so I don't think she'd be able to use it as an excuse
|
It's what's called an affirmative defense. You must prove that you were insane, the prosecutor doesn't have to prove you were sane. It's also very rarely successful, perhaps too rarely.
Just because a person is found innocent by reason of insanity doesn't mean they get released. The insanity part gets you sent to a mental hospital (and a mental hospital with the capability to keep violent patients locked up - and scare tales to the contrary, they're pretty good at keeping them locked up).
The difference is that, if you are declared "cured", you are released. You were not convicted of a crime, so once released as innocent it's in theory over. But it's also very rare that those ever get released. From all reports, the John Hinckley currently locked up in the mental ward is very different from the one who shot at Reagan, but I doubt he'll ever be released.
Practically, there's not a lot of difference - you still get locked up, lose control over your life or the freedom to come and go as you want and are kept away from the general public to protect them. But there is a world of difference legally. You are being treated, not punished, and making you better is given equal weight to keeping you locked up (and "punishment" carries no weight) - on the other hand, it's a lot easier to force a mental patient to take drugs against his will than a prisoner. Should you be judged cured, you have a right to be released, as opposed to parole and pardon being privileges granted by the state (but in practice your odds of being declared cured are on a par with the odds of getting a parole).
So, if there was a trial, I think the defense wouldn't have much trouble proving that Mother Mayhem was legally insane and unable to tell the difference between good and evil, so she would not be found guilty. But she would still be locked up for the rest of her unnatural life.
Except, of course, this being a comic book world and the revolving door on the mental hospitals is as effective as the revolving door on the prisons.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Quote:
"Because I was told" hasn't been a reasonable out since the era of said camps.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Oh I almost forgot to add.. Westin Phillips is a good candidate as well and the missions he sends other on are despicable but he's still just working for Lord Recluse. He may be the one sending your character out to poison food or destroy books but like all the other contacts you deal with that are a part of Arachnos he's still just carrying out the wishes of Recluse himself or one of Recluse's deputies. I would definately rank him as worse than a lot of the others like Viridian or the Shadow Spider since he obviously got the job of seeing to it those missions were accomplished because he had no problem doing it. Knowing how Recluse reacts to anyone that disappoints of defies him .. can we honestly say Phillips is acting without someone's permission? The missions themselves may even be his idea on how to resolve a situation but he still had to get someone higher up to approve them before he contacted YOUR character to carry them out! Using a real world example He'd be very similar to a Nazi concentration camp commander during WW 2.. They carried out the genocide but not without Hitler ordering it to be done and approving of the methiods they used to do so!
|
You still had the ability to say no or to do the right thing but chose to just follow orders.
Excellent point on Nemesis though.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
If the Dream Doctor has been truthful in his letters, I'd have to say Twilight's Son is the most evil. Maybe he's not considered a villain in game, but selling out your own entire species to be used as starship fuel is about as vile as you can get.
|
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Quote:
With that in mind, I vote for Snaptooth.|
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
A memorably evil villain has a morality. But it's one in which their goal is the highest possible good -- whether it's their own power, the acquisition of knowledge, the destruction of the world, or even something like protecting their family. In the pursuit of this goal they are more than prepared to sacrifice anything else.
And for the worst of them, that goal is coupled with another -- the misery of everyone who doesn't share it. Not just death, although they may inflict this on a large scale, but the awe and terror of the petty sheep who would have stopped them. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sparkly Soldier
They don't have much in the way of a single villain to represent them, but collectively my vote goes toward the Red Caps. Most of the villains have some mitigating factor, or at least a motive: Mother Mayhem is insane, Emperor Cole believes the ends justify the means, Recluse wants to rule the world, Hamidon thinks the world's better off without humans and so on. None of which makes their actions any less evil, but it makes their characters a little more redeemable. The Red Caps have kidnapped people throughout history, grotesquely changed some of them into monsters while keeping their minds human, forced them into centuries of deathless combat (and that's only a small part of what they do to their victims, it's just the only part that's fully described) ...and the only reason they do any of it is because they think it's funny.
|
But the way the Caps are depicted in game, I have to wholeheartedly agree with you... nevermind my global
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Though Westin Phipps is sadistic and manipulative, he is nonetheless carrying out orders given to him by Arachnos. Someone else had the evil and he just takes delight in getting it done; that doesn't really make him the "source of the evil" as it were. Left to his own devices, Phipps wouldn't have the power or resources to do much evil, so I wouldn't put him very high on the "most evil villain" chart.
|
Quote:
| Now, whatever will I do with a desperate mother and her blind twin daughters? Hmmm... |
Phipps, easily, is the most evil to me, because he's doing it all for his own sadistic enjoyment, not for power or control.
Quote:
Silos ruined his great plan that was totally going to work with no flaws whatsoever if Silos hadn't changed it. |
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Dream Doctor is totally agenda driven and I don't believe him for one second.
|
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
"Because I was told" hasn't been a reasonable out since the era of said camps.
You still had the ability to say no or to do the right thing but chose to just follow orders. Excellent point on Nemesis though. Dream Doctor is totally agenda driven and I don't believe him for one second. |
Oh no don't misunderstand.. the "But I was only following orders" excuse didnt help all those death camp officials after WW2 one bit they were all guilty of horrible acts against human being.. My point was simply woulod those camps have even existed if Hitler hadn't wanted them? Along those same lines while Phipps is a total sleeze and sends us out of the absolute worst missions in game... What are the odds at some point a conversation between him and Recluse didnt take place..
Recluse: Listen Weston I need someone to handle a few rather disgusting jobs for me. I've watched you progress and you strike me as the sort who can do these things with no problem.
Weston: Thank you my lord. What did you wish me to do?
Recluse: Well lets start with this food those goodie two-shoes in Paragon sent to help our needy. I don't want the needy getting help from outside .. I want them totally dependant on me. Go and poison that food and take out anyone that gets in the way.
Weston: excellent idea sir I have just the man/woman for the job!
While we never see that conversation it is taken directly from the mission briefing for the poison the food mission. Recluse is never actually mentioned but ...
Briefing
The nerve of some people! I was approached today by some sanctimonious do-gooders from some Paragon City charity. Apparently there was a big food drive for the poor of the Rogue Isles, and now the shipment is in. The donations are being stored in a warehouse here in Grandville until they can be distributed. But I want the poor to be hungry. It keeps them more miserable and desperate for my help. So I want you to destroy and poison those donations. But watch out. There's a group of super-powered do-gooders guarding the shipment. I'd suggest you bring some other rogues along.
Can you see how he'd react exactly the same way if the chraity had approached him directly? Chances are the food never would have even made it to Grandville. Chances are that leader of that charity group would be dead or in some prison cell being slowly tortured to death.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
Quote:
^=== THIS is EPIC! |
Originally Posted by Obitus
 |
(ps: who read that playing star wars music in their head? *rases hand*)
and yes I say ZWILL along with the Devs are the most evil people cause they created all the "most evil NPCs" in the game so its gotta say something about their own selves to be evil
... im just kidding..
they are all good people (sometimes)
Id have to say Lord Recluse because hes so bad ***
VIG0S: 1356 badges in counting
Something for ppl to use
I vote for Hamidon, the villain who literally wants to make everything and everyone on earth into himself. He gains points over, say, Rularuu (who does sort of the same thing) in that he's willing to do such sadistic things as devour his own girlfriend in pursuit of his agenda. (Echo and Narcissus taken to the most extreme level imaginable!) Further, he has a kind of insidious charm, in that I've read not a few posts over the years that see him as just a devoted, misguided soul. (Even the devs tend to view him as more a Dante's-Satan/Godzilla mash-up of mountainous mass of non-being and unfocused destruction than an actively evil force, though there are exceptions, such as the Terra arc and the villain arc in which he speaks to the PC.)
Runners-up for me include Westin Phipps (his "power" is acting evil), Mother Mayhem (kind of like Hami in a less literal sense, as well as destructively crazy), Mot (nihilism given a personality and will), and Requiem (he promotes a fascist organization not even because he cares about its agenda, but for personal power- that's pretty scary).
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Quote:
Heh. To clarify, Arcanaville created the crawl; I just turned it into a gif when she observed that people are generally too lazy to click on links. |
Originally Posted by Blackleviathan
^=== THIS is EPIC!
(ps: who read that playing star wars music in their head? *rases hand*) |
* - And I include myself, by the way, in the too-lazy camp.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Ok. I think I tallied this right. So far, the votes for the most evil villain in the CoX universe are as follows:
Westin Phipps: 13
Nemesis: 9
Mother Mayhem: 5
Lord Recluse: 4
Hamidon: 4
Player villains: 3
Mot: 2
Protean: 2
Master Midnight: 2
Peter Themari: 2
Tyrant: 2
Dr. Vahzilok: 1
Reichsman: 1
Menders of Ouroboros: 1
Malta Group: 1
Captain Mako: 1
Circle of Thorns: 1
Nictus: 1
Family: 1
Carnival of Shadows: 1
Battalion: 1
Red Caps: 1
Twilight's Son: 1
Crosscut: 1
Praetor Duncan: 1
I think that's right.
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
Quote:
I genuinely don't see how he even makes anyone's list. A low level functionary following orders given above. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Westin Phipps. I can't even do his arcs after that first time because I got the crawlies.
|
I find it fascinating that so many people are so weird-ed out by conduct that is up close and personal, but manage to maintain detachment to vastly worse crimes committed by the likes of Nemesis, Tyrant & even Recluse on his better days.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
His very visible high level of job satisfaction makes him stand out even in the Rogue Isles.
|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I genuinely don't see how he even makes anyone's list. A low level functionary following orders given above.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I think that, for as long as the thread has gone, this really sums up my position quite well. I don't buy people who "want to be evil" because that reduces them to Saturday Morning Cartoons, which is where Westin Phipps is, though perhaps less Evil Con Carne and more Ren and Stimpy. Nobody "wants" to be evil, some people simply are because of how they choose to go about achieving what they want to achieve.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Meh, evil is all about perspective. The truly evil ones are the ones that think they're doing good while they enact genocide and other atrocities upon the globe.
|
Sure, you can quite serial killers and whack-jobs like the Joker, but I've never found those kinds of villains compelling. Oh, shock and horror, I don't like the Joker. Woe is me. I prefer villains who have a real motivation that "evil" is just a means to, rather than villains for whom evil IS the motivation.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
It's like that aphorism "one death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths is a statistic."|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I genuinely don't see how he even makes anyone's list. A low level functionary following orders given above.
I find it fascinating that so many people are so weird-ed out by conduct that is up close and personal, but manage to maintain detachment to vastly worse crimes committed by the likes of Nemesis, Tyrant & even Recluse on his better days. |
Phipps' crimes are more grounded in reality and thus more relatable than the comic book histrionics of many higher profile and objectively "worse" villains.
Nemesis is an impossible cartoon.
People like Phipps exist, right now, all around us.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I got news for ya--that guy carrying a baseball bat around? I took a double-edged battleaxe and hit him in the junk with it as hard as I could. He got back up again and took a swing at me. I don't think it's crazy to upgrade to a minigun after that. |
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Ms. Liberty. Managing to get a paramilitary force OK'd, deploying it to attack not only the citizens of a foreign country (where she has no authority) but people in her own city (since when is the appropriate response to a baseball bat or dagger a minigun or flamethrower?) and not have anyone bat an eye.
|
My vote would probably be Crosscut, who hasn't gotten more than an honorable mention: He's clearly sadistic, enjoys inflicting pain and suffering on an emotional as well as physical level, and pretty much walks away scot-free. (Fun tip: Do Graves' missions with a sonic blast character. There's some dialogue that comes off as really masochistic.
) There might be others who've done more damage, but Crosscut is about as nasty as they come.
MARTy...
Quote:
But, insane isn't necessarily evil. There's a reason the ruling of "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" in court cases exists. If you are sufficiently out of touch with reality, the nature of morality changes drastically. |
Originally Posted by jfp2004
I'd say Mother Mayhem. That mission where you experience the memories of that one Seer in First Ward was hard to take. She's totally insane.
|
As far as downright, deliberately, intentionally EVIL?
Phipps wins by a landslide. He knows exactly how terrible the things he has you do are, and he enjoys it.
That's Manson-grade evil there.
Tyrant and Nemesis are tied for second in my book.
There is something to be said for the evilness of a man who does horrible things to the very people he is supposed to be protecting while utterly convinced that he is doing it for the greater good. In my opinion, removing someone's free will and ability to think for themselves is worse than just killing them. If you kill them, they are just dead. Destroying who they are is far worse. Not only have you destroyed the person, but you've also corrupted their loved ones' memories of them. Unforgivable as far as I'm concerned. And Tyrant does that on a massive scale, as punishment for the crime of disagreeing with him.
And Nemesis makes Doctor Doom look like an amateur.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
And I put actual effort into that: I didn't just add two words to the alien guy's face or google a picture of a cat. I have to get some sort of return on investment there or I won't be able to write off the time.
Anyway, your crawl deserves to be shared, but I'm not sure whether our forum overlords would approve my posting a 5 MB gif.
(Edit: After consulting with the forum FAQ, I see that apparently the file size is good. Cool.)