Who is the most evil villain in CoX?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 11:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That mission never sat right with me. Because in both arcs and other missions, race has never come up as a major issue. Nemesis is plenty evil, done terrible things. But from every other mission, Nemesis sees the world a "There's Nemesis, and then there's ants", with no real difference between the ants. If he was that racist, wouldn't it show up more often?|
Originally Posted by Green Bean
Nemesis. No one else is even close. The guy literally committed genocide. He killed billions of people for the crime of not being white. Honestly, I'm surprised this isn't brought up more often in the lore, because it is easily the worst thing he's done.
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Here's the writeup on it link
"It got me thinking: why didn't he just threaten to use that device here? From the records you found, it looks like he was planning this for some time. I think I figured out why he chose that world too. According to Portal Corporation files, through some twist of fate the population of that world was mostly of African descent. To Nemesis, their skin color alone made the lot of them less than human. That monster probably didn't think twice about murdering them."
Nemesis didn't think twice about starting a highly destructive war against a dimension of peaceful aliens, didn't think twice about overwriting the minds of those aliens, Unai has other missions with worlds that a version of Nemesis wiped out completely or nearly. Outside of this one comment by Maxwell Christopher, Nemesis is depicted as an equal opportunity mass murderer. And even in this comment, Maxwell is making a guess. "They were black, Nemesis used his doomsday device on them, therefore Nemesis killed them because they were black". Which sounds a lot like the "post hoc ergo proper hoc" logical fallacy.
There's another mission with Maxwell where Nemesis has a device to control the mind of anyone he wants, but Maxwell says that Nemesis doesn't use it because he just wants to be loved. That also seems out of character with everything else written about Nemesis.
Nemesis could work as a raging psychotic racist. But based on what we've known he's done, what he's said when confronted or when monologuing, there's no sign of it.
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Bodycount is a bad metric for "evil" though.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If we're just going by bodycounts, then Battalion could take the top spot, as it's already destroyed 18 of the 21 planets where the Maaxigada'arzildilo live - although we've not been told how many Maaxigada'arzildilo lived on each palnt, or if any managed to escape in time - plus, we don't know how conscious Battalion is of its actions in moral terms.
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Evil is defined by immorality & wickedness. It isn't just "killing" that makes someone evil- its the why and how that really defines the evil.
Westin Phipps practically revels in the cruelty his acts bring to others.
We don't (yet) know the Battalion's motives. It may be that they have some twisted, misguided belief that their actions are truly necessary to save the universe. (At least, I haven't seen any lore about their true motives...
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There's no reason to believe he actually would have succeeded. Personally, I figure uploading a hostile mind into a network with billions of experienced psychics would not have ended well for Nemesis. |
Originally Posted by Seschat
Such as nearly getting away with erasing the minds of a planetary population and overwriting them telepathically using their own abilities with his own consciousness?
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@Gadget
Nemesis fought in the Civil War on the Confederate side, so it isn't like his racism is out of place. Given when he was born, it makes total sense, especially since his attitude towards women seems to have the same origin. Plus, his faction is nothing but white dudes. He's not producing a lot of contradictory evidence.
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*pokes head into thread*|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
I've always thought it was some MA Scrapper.
 Oh wait, you said Villain.  Nevermind.  |
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
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This is an interesting discussion. I don't have a contender to throw into the ring, but here are a few assorted thoughts.
Active vs Passive
Is it more evil to actively harm someone than it is to know that harm is being done and do nothing about it?
Intimate Evil vs Public Evil
Or the Casey Anthony vs Hitler question. Is it more evil to harm someone close to you than to harm many people you don't know?
Desire vs Eroticism
Does a crime become more evil when the motivation for it is wholely or partially related to sexual gratification? In other words, in a crime context, is a sexual desire more understandable than generalized desire (e.g. "I did it because it was fun"), or less understandable?
Regret vs Nostalgia
Is it worse to do something horrible and regret it, or to do something milder but be pleased with it?
Chaotic Evil vs Chaotic Stupid
Is it more evil to choose alliances carefully and work steadily toward an evil goal, than it is to willfuly engage in conflicts with everyone? An important question, because it may mean that capapcity for evil increases with intelligence.
Duplicity vs Publicity
How important is it that people actually know what the evil character is up to?
Peter Themari or Mother Mayhem.
Why Themari? By the time you get to Grandville and Phipps, you've already committed countless acts of villainy, including murder, kidnapping, theft, and arson. Phipps non-arc missions are just the push over that final edge of your character becoming a true monster. When you arrive in Cap au Diable, the worst thing you've done is kill Niles Worthington for the Vendetti family. Then you're introduced to Peter Themari and his Three Cheers... Course, with Dr. Graves around now, he might not be as bad.
Mother Mayhem is self-explanatory; she's a bat**** insane, psychopathic monster.
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Crey is the only villain group I can think of that's an equal opportunity employer (maybe trolls - who knows what their skin color was before they went green). While Nemesis did fight in the Civil War for the Confederates, his battle for power since then haven't shown any pattern of targeting minorities.|
Originally Posted by Green Bean
Nemesis fought in the Civil War on the Confederate side, so it isn't like his racism is out of place. Given when he was born, it makes total sense, especially since his attitude towards women seems to have the same origin. Plus, his faction is nothing but white dudes. He's not producing a lot of contradictory evidence.
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Yes, he's probably got more than a few prejudices bouncing around that metal casing he's in. But if race was a prime motivator of who he kills and who he conquers, it should have shown up more in the missions and the lore and his statements as we encounter him. He's regularly shown a willing to kill vast numbers of people for one plot or another, it seems a stretch to say "but THOSE people were killed because they were black." From all we've seen, it's more likely he killed them because for one thing or another they were in his way.
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Oddly enough, I think the Hellions and Skulls are also multi-racial groups ...
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Peter Themari I think gets bonus points for being evil for the sake of evil. He's not doing evil for power, or because he's been paid or ordered to, or for any larger plan. As far as I can tell he just likes being evil.
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He killed an entire world of people testing a Doomsday Device, chosen because they were overwhelmingly of African descent.
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
While Nemesis did fight in the Civil War for the Confederates, his battle for power since then haven't shown any pattern of targeting minorities.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Again, that's Maxwell's analysis of why Nemesis did it, and it's the ONLY mission involving Nemesis showing racism as a motivator. So it seems off that it was only there.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
He killed an entire world of people testing a Doomsday Device, chosen because they were overwhelmingly of African descent.
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My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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Not the only mission, Lt. Sefu Tandaji is murdered specifically for his race in Dark Watcher's RWZ arc
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Again, that's Maxwell's analysis of why Nemesis did it, and it's the ONLY mission involving Nemesis showing racism as a motivator. So it seems off that it was only there.
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Not sure if serious...|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Not the only mission, Lt. Sefu Tandaji is murdered specifically for his race in Dark Watcher's RWZ arc
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If so, please clarify where exactly this is stated. I've looked over the paragonwiki page for this arc, and didn't see anything to support this.
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Completely serious. But yeah I looked on wiki and it doesn't list it. I -believe- it's in the clue when you find his body.
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Originally Posted by Elf_Sniper
Not sure if serious...
If so, please clarify where exactly this is stated. I've looked over the paragonwiki page for this arc, and didn't see anything to support this. |
Redside Player Characters. They [Spoiler!]kick Recluse's *PANCAKE* and literally hand him his own faceplate.[/Spoiler!]
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But that's basically what we do on the MLTF too |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Redside Player Characters. They [Spoiler!]kick Recluse's *PANCAKE* and literally hand him his own faceplate.[/Spoiler!]
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
ah but vills can do it solo. heroes are forced to fight a buffed version in an 8 person tf or in a pvp zone. for my sub main villian, dire worg, it was the last redside mish he did before taking a morality mish and going rogue. heroes do not yet get to fight him solo (edge cases have been reported of him showing up as an AV in safeguard mishes. but av soloing is another ball of wax.)
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arachnos also has prominent African-american characters, including the indomitable marshall brass. also, "rogue" longbow are pretty diverse, even before you hit the powered bosses with the purple/green skin. also, i think a lot of boss level crushers from the outcast are African-american.
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Crey is the only villain group I can think of that's an equal opportunity employer (maybe trolls - who knows what their skin color was before they went green).
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Originally Posted by Paragon
Mother Mayhem is self-explanatory; she's a bat**** insane, psychopathic monster. |
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Most of the bad things Nemesis has done probably have included in there somewhere stuff on a similar level to the bad things Phipps has done (or incited). e.g. the poisoning of small kids - given Nemesis' weaponry tends to involve fire, explosives, and poison gas, it's pretty likely his enterprises have included the poisoning of children somewhere along the way - he may not have specifically decided that he'd like to poison some children today, but he's gone ahead with mass murder knowing that children would be poisoned as part of it. And those children will have suffered just as much as the kid(s) Phipps poisoned.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
That is one way of looking at it, but like i said upthread, part of why phipps is so hated is that he delights in hurting the helpless. One reason a lot of evil generals can to a flip to at least being respected even after killing lots of heroic characters is that they at least showed some class, they fought near equals and did so in open combat. phips orchestrates the poisoning of small kids he is a different, abominable kind of evil. its the same visceral reaction many have have to seeing some hurt a small dog or child, full on moral repulsion. I can sort of respect recluse, even if he does do the idiotic evil darwinist thing, he "picks on people his own size" but Phipps is a stain of humanity (as is midnight master). In fact, id go so far as to say that like agg said, phipps wants to be a monster. recluse has a goal, being the strongest and surrounding himself with the strongest, he does evil in persuit of a goal, but evil is not his goal, if he thought about things differently, he probably could do good as well, phipps is cruel to the core, it is his goal.
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The main question here is whether the scale and indifference of Nemesis' evil trumps the sadistic delight Phipps takes in his own.
(Personally I rate Nemesis as the most evil, as the suffering of the victims is pretty similar in either case, but he's got *way* more victims and not just due to success rates, his plans necessitate it - the reasons why he's inflicting that suffering do nothing to reduce it. I think Phipps is *nastier*, but his overall evil is dwarfed by Nemesis)
First of all I think one potential candidate was left out.. Hamidon. People tend to forget that according to Paragon Wiki:
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The Hamidon was once a scientist that believed humanity was ruining the planet and now unleashes his minions in an attempt to wipe out all of mankind. Now I don't want to get into the politics of who is right or wrong but this very much mirrors the twisted thinking that allows certain Pro-life avocate in the abortion debates to feel no remorse in blowing up a clinic and KILLING living human being to save a fetus or certain animal rights radicals that do the same sort of thing blowing up labs that use animals for testing with humans inside. Now there are plenty of others involved in both of those movements that would never resort to such extremes but how do you justify taking lives to save lives? The Hamidon is the same way.. Granted humanity has done plenty to screw up the eco systems of the planet but when a human being decideds the only possible solution to the problem is to kill off all humans you cross the line from being concerned to being fanatic. | The Hamidon was once a zealous scientist named Hamidon Pasalima. Using hideous dark magic and his own genetic genius, he transformed himself into the god-like monster that would spawn the Devouring Earth and threaten the entire world. In a Q&A done by Razer, developer Black Scorpion implied that Hamidon had somehow been able to tap into the Well of The Furies and turned himself into an Incarnate, which could explain his appearance and massive power. |
Okay that was just to get him in the running. I think my vote goes to Nemesis. A man who has cheated death itself by encasing his mind in a metalic body and is determined to control not only this world but others. Long before he had a hand in starting the Rikti War he used Weapons of Mass Destruction on civilians in an attempt to maintain control of the United States shortly after the end of WW 2. It's very obvious that he feels if he can't rule the earth he's perfectly happy destroying as many human beings, super powered or not, as it takes to control it. Using portal technology he has carried out this same sort of thing on numerous other worlds as we see doing missions from Tina McIntyre (Rescue the Freedom Fighters), Unai Kemen (Save the Military Advisors from Nemesis and Explore the new dimension.. Tau Delta 8-7), and his forces play a part in both the Doc Quarterfield and Sara Moore Task Forces in the Shadow Shard. According to the lore he amassed his fortune during World War two as an arms dealer .. and one can't help but wonder if he wasn't selling to both sides or IF he may have even had a hand in starting the war??? He used it to finance the building of his own army and used the fact that most of the US Military was still in Europe and Asia to launch the invasion that allowed him to cease control of Washington DC and proclaim himself Emperor. It's quite obvious he wants to rule the entire universe and has no problem lying, cheating plotting and killing anyone that is in his way.
Oh I almost forgot to add.. Westin Phillips is a good candidate as well and the missions he sends other on are despicable but he's still just working for Lord Recluse. He may be the one sending your character out to poison food or destroy books but like all the other contacts you deal with that are a part of Arachnos he's still just carrying out the wishes of Recluse himself or one of Recluse's deputies. I would definately rank him as worse than a lot of the others like Viridian or the Shadow Spider since he obviously got the job of seeing to it those missions were accomplished because he had no problem doing it. Knowing how Recluse reacts to anyone that disappoints of defies him .. can we honestly say Phillips is acting without someone's permission? The missions themselves may even be his idea on how to resolve a situation but he still had to get someone higher up to approve them before he contacted YOUR character to carry them out! Using a real world example He'd be very similar to a Nazi concentration camp commander during WW 2.. They carried out the genocide but not without Hitler ordering it to be done and approving of the methiods they used to do so!
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Tyrant also places quite high on the child-killing league table, as the loyalists prefer to make the families of his critics "disappear" rather than the actual critics themselves.
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Originally Posted by Biowraith
Most of the bad things Nemesis has done probably have included in there somewhere stuff on a similar level to the bad things Phipps has done (or incited). e.g. the poisoning of small kids - given Nemesis' weaponry tends to involve fire, explosives, and poison gas, it's pretty likely his enterprises have included the poisoning of children somewhere along the way - he may not have specifically decided that he'd like to poison some children today, but he's gone ahead with mass murder knowing that children would be poisoned as part of it. And those children will have suffered just as much as the kid(s) Phipps poisoned.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
They don't have much in the way of a single villain to represent them, but collectively my vote goes toward the Red Caps. Most of the villains have some mitigating factor, or at least a motive: Mother Mayhem is insane, Emperor Cole believes the ends justify the means, Recluse wants to rule the world, Hamidon thinks the world's better off without humans and so on. None of which makes their actions any less evil, but it makes their characters a little more redeemable. The Red Caps have kidnapped people throughout history, grotesquely changed some of them into monsters while keeping their minds human, forced them into centuries of deathless combat (and that's only a small part of what they do to their victims, it's just the only part that's fully described) ...and the only reason they do any of it is because they think it's funny.
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My vote goes for either Hamidon or Nemesis. Both have seen success at destroying entire worlds (admittedly, it was Praetorian Hamidon that succeeded, but still). Both are pretty much without conscience, doing what they do for warped reasons. Nemesis probably hedges out Hamidon by virtue of being more successful, but both are pretty evil.
Phipps doesn't come close imo. He doesn't even match the vigilante->villain missions in terms of evil (yet another reason why I wish there were heroic versions of the Patron arcs, those made me actively hate my character). Protean outclasses him by virtue of being his own villain rather than just another one of Recluse's henchmen, plus simply the scale of his villainy - unlike Phipps he actually tries to invade Primal Earth with the infinite copies of... you. Phipps, he's small time.
If the Dream Doctor has been truthful in his letters, I'd have to say Twilight's Son is the most evil. Maybe he's not considered a villain in game, but selling out your own entire species to be used as starship fuel is about as vile as you can get.
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Maybe you could wear an evil hat.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
But...but...
What if I want to be evil...  |
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If we're just going by bodycounts, then Battalion could take the top spot, as it's already destroyed 18 of the 21 planets where the Maaxigada'arzildilo live - although we've not been told how many Maaxigada'arzildilo lived on each palnt, or if any managed to escape in time - plus, we don't know how conscious Battalion is of its actions in moral terms.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork