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Really? The Ouroboros Portal is an Accolate, and that can be granted by one of a dozen different badges.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
There is no tech to grant an accolade based on one badge or another badge.
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Actually Accolades aren't granted by a combination of badges, they're granted by a badge that carries their name, which is itself granted from that combination. The game already has a system to grant an Accolade badge based on any one of many badges. It should be possible to add a "Pal" badge that's unlocked with either Statesman's Pal or Positron's Pal, which is then used as the final one to unlock said accolade badge.
Standard code rant obviously applies for final judgement, but precedent for this already exists.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm quite against having previously earned badges renamed. My character doesn't even like Stateman, but he did rescue him and that's what the badge should say. The "Pal" is ironic.
I really, really find it a stretch to see this as Matt Miller becoming like Jack Emmert, though. This is nowhere near Mr. Emmert's league in in arrogance even if it were an actual decision by Matt.
Paragon Studios has been good about doing things players have wanted for years, but sometimes just misses the boat on things. I don't see any malicious intent here.
Proud member of Heroes Inc.
I'm not like other moms.
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I think it's more of a slippery slope argument than anything else, really. Choice (admittedly slightly paraphrased) quotes like, "We'd rather develop a new powerset than update visuals for an old one," and, "We'd rather make a new character than update the appearance of an old one," make me question a lot of the direction that's occuring over there.|
Originally Posted by Primary_Unit
I really, really find it a stretch to see this as Matt Miller becoming like Jack Emmert, though. This is nowhere near Mr. Emmert's league in in arrogance even if it were an actual decision by Matt.
Paragon Studios has been good about doing things players have wanted for years, but sometimes just misses the boat on things. I don't see any malicious intent here. |
Obviously nobody's pointing figures at Matt and blaming him for everything, but if you don't see the ridiculous amount of grooming his in-game representation has gotten by now (not locked in a suit yet kept his powers, has a girlfriend, taking Statesman's old job, now being retro-actively inserted into old content), and the pure spite that killed off the two characters Jack Emmert made, it's reeeeeeal tough to not make this look like a one sided slap fight.
For as much as everyone at Paragon allegedly thought I was always in Statesman's shadow thus he needed to die, I never once felt that way. Positron, though, is trying his best to get to that status.
The problem with the claim that this is all about "revenge" is timing - there's a huge gap between now and when Jack left - it implies that Positron waited several years to act on this "feud", and even ignored things like the launch of CO as suitable dates for his "revenge" in favor of I21 and the relaunch of the game.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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His 3 post-WWD appearances so far invovle him being captured by the Praetorians, being captured and controled by Mot, and being beaten up by Trolls - plus, his other recent pre-WWD role was as a final TF boss for Villains to beat up and steal the source of power he was supposed to be guarding - he's not exactly overshadowing the players with his achievements.
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Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
the ridiculous amount of grooming his in-game representation has gotten by now
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Agreed. 4 years of planning his revenge, and this is the best he can come up with? Doubtfull.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The problem with the claim that this is all about "revenge" is timing - there's a huge gap between now and when Jack left - it implies that Positron waited several years to act on this "feud", and even ignored things like the launch of CO as suitable dates for his "revenge" in favor of I21 and the relaunch of the game.
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why Sam, I do believe this is the first time I've ever seen crack one of those things, what are they, JOKES, that's it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Is that what the kids are calling these days?
Wait, no, I'm thinking of something else. |
Thanks for my morning's forum amuse bouche!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Agreed: Badges should only be renamed when newly added if they duplicate an existing badge name. Such naming mistakes happen every issue and get fixed in a later patch. We are used to this. We grumble at the QA slips, but we are used to it.
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That works. Putting in new badges for updated/new story arcs and leaving the original badges tied to the Ouroboros flashback versions would be fine.
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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
A Hero's hero = Statesman's pal.
a Hero's epic = Positron's Pal. |
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They've said as much that it was done in order to "leave the nest." I don't think it really matters when it was done, but the fact that Jack's characters are gone. The leader figure was replaced by Positron, and the group's psychic was replaced by... a psychic. With flashier powers.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The problem with the claim that this is all about "revenge" is timing - there's a huge gap between now and when Jack left - it implies that Positron waited several years to act on this "feud", and even ignored things like the launch of CO as suitable dates for his "revenge" in favor of I21 and the relaunch of the game.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
His 3 post-WWD appearances so far invovle him being captured by the Praetorians, being captured and controled by Mot, and being beaten up by Trolls - plus, his other recent pre-WWD role was as a final TF boss for Villains to beat up and steal the source of power he was supposed to be guarding - he's not exactly overshadowing the players with his achievements.
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To quote Harvey Dent, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Just chiming in to agree with the 'don't erase history' crowd.
Statesman said let there be heroes, and there were heroes.
Lord Recluse said let there be villains, and there were villains.
NCsoft said let there be nothing, and there was nothing.
Add my two cents, leave my earned badges alone -add new ones as needed, by all means, but folks have the option to use those as titles. It would be like logging in and seeing your costume colors changed from black and gray to pink and green...
Hero Force - Beta Bruisers, Division Head, Virtue Server
Aleksandros Baelmah - 50 Fire/IceBlaster
Something I've found acting as a storyteller - and this is no great wisdom, just my own experience - is inserting a representation of yourself in a story that's not ostensibly ABOUT that representation of yourself mostly and primarily is just a bad idea all around. This is especially true if you intend to involve other, living people in it. Even for the best of authors, the trap of seeing "your character" as yourself is all too real and decisions regarding this character aren't always as objective as they might seem.
Why am I saying this? Because I honestly feel that none of this would have been news if someone ELSE, pretty much anyone other than Positron, had been promoted to the big cahuna. It could have been BABs, it could have been Miss Liberty. Hell, it could have been Sister Psyche if she were alive. Or it could have been someone brand new. Probably not as young and inexperienced as Penny Yin, but someone of that nature. Having it be Positron, the guy whose name our lead developer is using - the lead developer whose given reason for the change was nothing of not suggestive - become the leader is just not a good decision. Whether or not it's petty (I still think it is, but whatever), it LOOKS petty because it has all the circumstances of it.
It'd be like me getting hired into Paragon Studios and all of the sudden you start seeing Samuel Tow as the most important character in arc after arc. Yeah, whatever argument I might try to make that that's just a character and not my representation, will anyone really believe me, for as long as I've used that name for myself? Because, yeah, Sam actually is a legitimate separate character, the first one I made here.
I don't know if I've mentioned it, but I've actually always been against developers using the names of in-game characters as their online personas. It makes the people using these characters' names seem subjective in their actions and it colours people's perceptions of the characters in turn. I'll bet my left butt cheek the bulk of the hate the Statesman received is Jack Emmert's reputation more than anything else. And I can guarantee that the same will start happening with Positron now, ESPECIALLY in how he's being given preferential treatment.
As far as I'm concerned, developers should keep themselves out of the fiction of their work.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I completely agree with the above statement.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
This did make me very sad that we effectively lost two old badges in order to gain these two new badges.
 As above, Hero's Hero should award Statesman's Pal and have Statesman in the mission content - it's time travel, back to before Statesman died. Hero's Epic should award Positron's Pal and have Positron in the mission content. Sister Psyche's ouro task force should award Sister Psyche's Comrade, and Penelope's task force should award Penelope's Friend, and *BOTH* Sister Psyche -and- Penelope should count toward TFC. Having either one should count as credit for that unlock. (Having both shouldn't do anything extra, mind.) |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It should be possible to add a "Pal" badge that's unlocked with either Statesman's Pal or Positron's Pal, which is then used as the final one to unlock said accolade badge.
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Sister Psyche's Comrade on the other hand is required for TF Commander. Yes, it is possible to add equal requirements for badges (ie. making TF Commander require either Sister Psyche's Comrade or the yin badge), but that requires a bit of coding time.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
We don't care about the badge, we care about the superdickery behind the change. It's just shameful for company policy to be this way, it repeats very obvious mistakes of the past and it's just jerkish behaviour. There's no need for it. Removing the Statesman of the "here and now" is one thing. He died because Black Pebble suggested it and Dr. Aeon wants to kill off every major NPC in the game (except for his character).
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Fair enough |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Corrected for accuracy.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hey, we all know that marketing is evil and Dr. Aeon is a mad scientist.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Beaten up by trolls? Those guys are grey to him and he doesn't even get any influence from fighting them.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
His 3 post-WWD appearances so far invovle him being captured by the Praetorians, being captured and controled by Mot, and being beaten up by Trolls - plus, his other recent pre-WWD role was as a final TF boss for Villains to beat up and steal the source of power he was supposed to be guarding - he's not exactly overshadowing the players with his achievements.
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@Inquisitor
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That was probably so we could have Penny grow up and not be competing with Psyche for "screen time" (or mission/trial prevalence). Additionally, a character that's still trying to establish herself in the eyes of the Phalanx seems more in-line with supporting players as the stars, rather than Sister Psyche, who everyone kept regarding as the most powerful psychic in the world. I think it's the Mind of Mayhem trial, Desdemona has more reservations about letting Penny help than she does about the rag-tag bunch of incarnates that queued up. Even if Penny is on Sister Psyche's level (is she?) no one's treating her like it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
(so why did Sister Psyche had to die, then?)
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But maybe I'm just being optimistic about the dev's motives.
Edit: On-topic, I'd like to throw my hat in with the folks who want the old badges available via Ouro and, if possible, not to have their current badges renamed.
This was a stupid solution. The people who thought renaming the badge (probably cause it was easier) are stupid people who do not get the fan base at all. This is Sourcefed "Stooped vs Stewpid" level here.
As a random thought: it would be A LOT more work, but it might be interesting if the Hero's Epic got a third rendition where instead the hero Praetorians were trying to capture was YOU.
After you've humiliated them and smacked them around so many times, they want to both make an example of you as well as see what makes you so special?
The arc would end up much shorter and mostly be one LOOOOOONG mission, or possibly the mission exits would throw you out into Praetoria with a special bar on you that kept you from getting back into primal earth until you completed the arcs.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I don't know, that's been Sister Psyche and Aurora Borealis all along. I don't have a problem with multiple psychics on the same team, plus Penny could always have taken up that role even with Psyche alive. Or maybe the events of the SSAs could have simply shocked the Phalanx back into action and forced them to realise they can't rest on their laurels and that maybe Psyche isn't as powerful a psychic any more. I'm not saying make her a weaker psychic, just that maybe the rest of the world has simply caught up to her, more or less. Be a good way to give players with psychics a push, at least.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
That was probably so we could have Penny grow up and not be competing with Psyche for "screen time" (or mission/trial prevalence). Additionally, a character that's still trying to establish herself in the eyes of the Phalanx seems more in-line with supporting players as the stars, rather than Sister Psyche, who everyone kept regarding as the most powerful psychic in the world. I think it's the Mind of Mayhem trial, Desdemona has more reservations about letting Penny help than she does about the rag-tag bunch of incarnates that queued up. Even if Penny is on Sister Psyche's level (is she?) no one's treating her like it.
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Personally, I feel that any story angle has multiple ways to be solved, and in much the same way as introducing ****, character deaths should be a last resort, used only when absolutely necessary or when they will make for an incredibly powerful scene. These are the kind of plot points that you don't just toss around willy-nilly like a baby playing with a loaded gun, and these are sure as hell not the kind of plot points you want to explore in stories as badly-edited as the SSAs were. SSA7 almost broke my English and I'm not even a native speaker.
Maybe I can stand to be a bit more optimistic, but I just see so much of the SSAs as ideas that got BADLY mishandled. To follow them up with taking the Statesman out of history is just the last straw, at least in my eyes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Samuel, think of it this way:
For the first few years, we the players were looking up to the NPCs for examples of Heroes and Villains.
From Issue 18 to 22, we're getting to the level that we're equal to the NPC heroes & Villains.
From this point on, we're becoming more of the focus of the story instead of being the sidekicks of the stories.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I don't disagree with this. Far from it, it's what I've been asking for. However, I don't believe we need to DESTROY the NPC heroes and villains to achieve this goal. After all, we need to have these people around for us to be equal TO, right?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Samuel, think of it this way:
For the first few years, we the players were looking up to the NPCs for examples of Heroes and Villains. From Issue 18 to 22, we're getting to the level that we're equal to the NPC heroes & Villains. From this point on, we're becoming more of the focus of the story instead of being the sidekicks of the stories. |
The thing to remember here is context, and I'll give you an example. If you've seen me ask help in making a goddess recently, you may have noticed I'm going for sort of a Mary Sue indescribably powerful entity. I discussed this with Viking initially, and he said something quite appropriate - after a certain level of power, the distinction about exactly how powerful my entity is becomes meaningless. That's because I've transcended all possible context and there's no reference with which to explain to people the level of power I want. The solution? Invent a pantheon of more conventional but still very powerful gods to serve as her agents and then use those as context against which to describe said indescribable entity. It's still a kludge, but it's better than nothing.
It's the same thing here. In order for us to feel accomplished, we need context about what we're surpassing. The signature NPCs are this context. However, to do fulfil this role, they need to be worth admiring and therefore worth surpassing. The higher the NPCs stand, the greater our achievement is in surpassing them. By dragging them through the mud as the SSAs have, these NPCs lose status, and the achievement of surpassing them loses its magnificence in turn. If I surpass someone I admire, this is an achievement. If I surpass someone I scoff at, this is no big deal. They need to be big in order for us being "bigger" to have meaning, so to speak.
I really feel that systematically dismantling the old legends is bad for the game. It doesn't make players feel like their characters are better, it makes players feel like the NPCs are losers, and there is a subtle but important difference there.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think people would of had this outlook on Positron becoming leader of the Freedom Phalanx, if SSA1, was done better.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Something I've found acting as a storyteller - and this is no great wisdom, just my own experience - is inserting a representation of yourself in a story that's not ostensibly ABOUT that representation of yourself mostly and primarily is just a bad idea all around. This is especially true if you intend to involve other, living people in it. Even for the best of authors, the trap of seeing "your character" as yourself is all too real and decisions regarding this character aren't always as objective as they might seem.
Why am I saying this? Because I honestly feel that none of this would have been news if someone ELSE, pretty much anyone other than Positron, had been promoted to the big cahuna. It could have been BABs, it could have been Miss Liberty. Hell, it could have been Sister Psyche if she were alive. Or it could have been someone brand new. Probably not as young and inexperienced as Penny Yin, but someone of that nature. Having it be Positron, the guy whose name our lead developer is using - the lead developer whose given reason for the change was nothing of not suggestive - become the leader is just not a good decision. Whether or not it's petty (I still think it is, but whatever), it LOOKS petty because it has all the circumstances of it. It'd be like me getting hired into Paragon Studios and all of the sudden you start seeing Samuel Tow as the most important character in arc after arc. Yeah, whatever argument I might try to make that that's just a character and not my representation, will anyone really believe me, for as long as I've used that name for myself? Because, yeah, Sam actually is a legitimate separate character, the first one I made here. I don't know if I've mentioned it, but I've actually always been against developers using the names of in-game characters as their online personas. It makes the people using these characters' names seem subjective in their actions and it colours people's perceptions of the characters in turn. I'll bet my left butt cheek the bulk of the hate the Statesman received is Jack Emmert's reputation more than anything else. And I can guarantee that the same will start happening with Positron now, ESPECIALLY in how he's being given preferential treatment. As far as I'm concerned, developers should keep themselves out of the fiction of their work. |
Plus, the fact that all the characters killed were created by one dev, so it just looks bad. Especially when you it was popular characters.
Statesman was the face of CoH. Sister Psyche was this well known hero (though, I must say I'm surprised we didn't have thread after thread about how SP was fridged for Manti) to the players, and one I'd likely say was at the top of the favorites list.
I'd go with the whole "personality wasn't built on so it doesnt matter" arguement people are spouting, but they're the same ones spouting love for BABs who's developement is just as much as Statesman, and imo, less than SP.
Plus, I'd like to not see the FP written as idiots. It ruins the story of them being, you know, the top supergroup of the world! Some people may have hated that idea, because they saw their characters/sg as the number one supergroup, but personally, I prefered the idea of the #1 SG being NPCs, cuz as an RPer, everyone saying they're the number one group just comes off as silly.
I like the new look of Penny, I like that she's getting more screen time. But I don't think it needed to be at the cost of SP, especially when we could of killed off some of the others instead.
Maybe this is CoH's way of allowing Manti to hook up with his sidekick?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
My first post in this thread alluded to what I suspect is the actual reason for this change: there is no tech to grant an accolade based on one badge or another badge. Accolades are all or nothing. If your goal is to remove Statesman from the late-game timeline but doing so would mean either leaving him in a prominent 45+ arc or granting a badge called Statesman's Pal for rescuing someone other than Statesman or developing an entire new system to account for the old arc granting one badge and the new arc granting another or changing the badge, which one looks the most economical to you?