City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I am not Positron's Pal.

8_Ball

By 8_Ball,
Posted on: 2012-04-20 18:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Maybe this is CoH's way of allowing Manti to hook up with his sidekick?
By having him murder his own wife O_o I'm not sure I'm keen on that story...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I'll reiterate what I said on the beta forum:

I'm opposed to replacing the Statesman's Pal badge with Positron's Pal. I didn't rescue Positron. I don't even like Positron. He can rescue himself. :P

I also lament the time and effort that has gone into 'fixing' Statesman's presence in the game that could have been directed to sprucing up old missions that actually need the work.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creole Ned View Post
I'll reiterate what I said on the beta forum:

I'm opposed to replacing the Statesman's Pal badge with Positron's Pal. I didn't rescue Positron. I don't even like Positron. He can rescue himself. :P

I also lament the time and effort that has gone into 'fixing' Statesman's presence in the game that could have been directed to sprucing up old missions that actually need the work.
Pretty much this.

seriously, they spent time on this???

I'd really like to know what the logic is behind this?

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Posted

I can appreciate the devs trying to introduce a more 'dynamic' story but the implementation has been pretty clumsy. It feels very much like someone thought it would be cool to kill off Statesman without thinking through the repercussions to the actual game.

But it did accomplish the goal of making me indifferent to the game's lore. It's such a convoluted mess now that I no longer care who lives/dies/gets retconned!

Just as long as they leave the stinkin' badges alone. You do not mess with player achievements.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9 View Post
No no no, you're [insert lead designer's name]'s Pal! Everyone knows [insert lead designer's name] can do no harm!
They should just make it Lead Designer's Pal. Y'know, future-proof against further changes to the game's leadership and the Phalanx membership.



Character index

 

Posted

My Emp/Sonic defender soloed the Sister Psyche TF. He wore that badge with pride, and I as a player regard it as special too. It's an utterly dick move taking it away from him and me.

Bagdes maybe just be a piddling little bit of code or a word or few of text hovering above a toon's head to the devs, but some, most or all of them are IMPORTANT to many players.

Yeah yeah, I signed the EULA, you can do whatever you like to the game and my toon, I know.

But you do this, and I hear 'Eco, your badges aren't yours. They're ours. We gave em to you, and we can take em away from you. What you gonna do about it? Nothing.'



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

Posted

Reading over on the comic hero/culture forums about the Superman case, that got me thinking.

What if they have to remove Statesman and Sister Psyche, and things associated with them, from the game for legal reasons they can't explain, making this seem like a petty change?

Hear me out. If they are required to put up in the comics/promotional material that these two characters were created by Jack Emmert, he may still have some legal control over them, causing difficulty when it comes to keeping them in-game or making changes to the characters. For all we know they may be contractually obligated to pay him when their image is used in game, and they want to close that door. (As for 'promotional material' that may not be included in the clause, making that safe to still use, for example)

Now I'm not saying this is true. I have no idea. I'm just tossing that out there as a possibility. It's really bothered me that these moves seem very out of character for our Dev team, with little to no response from them regarding, or even defending, these moves.

Remember, Positron isn't the lead Dev anymore, it's War Witch, and I really feel if this was just a petty move on Matt's behalf, she'd would probably have had something to say about it, yet these 'broad stroke' changes dealing with these characters are being made as quietly as possible, with little fuss or defense on their behalf.

Again, just tossing that out there. I have no clue what the actual situation is, so I could just as well be spitting in the wind. (Still don't like the badge changes though)

"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

Posted

If all of the characters I create become property of NC Soft as part of the EULA, I have a hard time seeing how characters people paid to work on the game create don't really fall under a similar clause. Irrespective of who made them, they should be part of City of Heroes intellectual property and as such subject to change and alteration.

And, really, if it's a legal problem, I'd appreciate being told it's a legal problem. I might not like it, but I'd not like it less than what's happening now. For all their super-dickery, I still prefer what Ubi did in saying they weren't releasing the Prince of Persia DLC for "business reasons" over pretending to not know what players are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
If all of the characters I create become property of NC Soft as part of the EULA, I have a hard time seeing how characters people paid to work on the game create don't really fall under a similar clause. Irrespective of who made them, they should be part of City of Heroes intellectual property and as such subject to change and alteration.

And, really, if it's a legal problem, I'd appreciate being told it's a legal problem. I might not like it, but I'd not like it less than what's happening now. For all their super-dickery, I still prefer what Ubi did in saying they weren't releasing the Prince of Persia DLC for "business reasons" over pretending to not know what players are talking about.
As for our characters being part of the EULA, I get that, but this could have been a rider in the contract way back when the game was first conceptualised. For all I know, all the Dev's 'personal' characters may be included in that clause. Way back, the thought may not have occured to them that this could cause problems down the line. They made a LOT of assumptions like that back in the day about a lot of things in-game, I don't see why that wouldn't apply in this case as well.

As for not disclosing anything about it, Paragon has a bad habit of keeping things 'too close to their chest' even when it's good stuff, much less a sticky legal thing. The funny thing is, as far as I know, they're not acting like they don't know what we're talking about... they just aren't saying anything at all.

Again, I have no clue if there's legal reasons, I'm just trying to wrap my head around why they'd do such a pancake move, and if it were just a 'petty revenge' thing, I would think someone in a position of authority would call shenanigans before it got to the point that they're ret-conning badges.

Unless everyone over there really hates Jack that much, and if that's the case, he may deserve such a snubbing. However, I still feel the loss of those two badges isn't fair to the players.

"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Pretty much this.

seriously, they spent time on this???

I'd really like to know what the logic is behind this?
Consistency? Naw, too obvious.

I can understand being upset about the change of the name of the badge, though. And not saying consistency is the reason for that. However, I have to wonder if it would have been FAR more work than it was worth to have the altered mission award a completely different badge without changing the badges that had already been attached to it and awarded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
If all of the characters I create become property of NC Soft as part of the EULA, I have a hard time seeing how characters people paid to work on the game create don't really fall under a similar clause.
They originally belonged to Cryptic before Cryptic sold the property to NC Soft. I have a pretty hard time believing that Jacko would have just handed over his in-game persona entirely without strings even as a part of selling the whole CoH bundle.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Something I've found acting as a storyteller - and this is no great wisdom, just my own experience - is inserting a representation of yourself in a story that's not ostensibly ABOUT that representation of yourself mostly and primarily is just a bad idea all around. (and all the rest that is basicaly pointing out mary-sueism)
From my POV, you've hit the nail on the head.
The death of Sister Psyche even feels like it only happened as she'd be the only one who outranked Positron and stood in the way of his promotion.
This is made even worse when you know that Positron was not a character created specificaly for CoH like all other rednames/npcs were.

I unsubbed for several months after I was forced to aknowledge that Possitron was the most important member of, and founder of the FP. I didn't even turn the mission in, I exited the game, and unsubbed right then, along with long winded message to customer support as to why I unsubbed. The whole thing had left a terrible taste in my mouth. I'm back now, but cant even bring myself to read mission text, as I know that it's just going to be even more drivvel.

 

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Originally Posted by Big_Lunk_NA View Post
I unsubbed for several months after I was forced to aknowledge that Possitron was the most important member of, and founder of the FP. I didn't even turn the mission in, I exited the game, and unsubbed right then, along with long winded message to customer support as to why I unsubbed. The whole thing had left a terrible taste in my mouth. I'm back now, but cant even bring myself to read mission text, as I know that it's just going to be even more drivvel.
Wow. I'm a pretty avid roleplayer. I like my storylines, and I like getting storylines in the game. Just saying that so you know where this is coming from: Get therapy.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyger42 View Post
Wow. I'm a pretty avid roleplayer. I like my storylines, and I like getting storylines in the game. Just saying that so you know where this is coming from: Get therapy.
Actualy, that was just the straw that broke the camel's back. There was a lot of other points that had me on the edge of quiting, and with the new content being one of the few reason I was still playing.
What I saw as a drop in quality, for the benefit of someone's ego, which was enough for me to give up.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
Reading over on the comic hero/culture forums about the Superman case, that got me thinking.

What if they have to remove Statesman and Sister Psyche, and things associated with them, from the game for legal reasons they can't explain, making this seem like a petty change?

Hear me out. If they are required to put up in the comics/promotional material that these two characters were created by Jack Emmert, he may still have some legal control over them, causing difficulty when it comes to keeping them in-game or making changes to the characters. For all we know they may be contractually obligated to pay him when their image is used in game, and they want to close that door. (As for 'promotional material' that may not be included in the clause, making that safe to still use, for example)

Now I'm not saying this is true. I have no idea. I'm just tossing that out there as a possibility. It's really bothered me that these moves seem very out of character for our Dev team, with little to no response from them regarding, or even defending, these moves.

Remember, Positron isn't the lead Dev anymore, it's War Witch, and I really feel if this was just a petty move on Matt's behalf, she'd would probably have had something to say about it, yet these 'broad stroke' changes dealing with these characters are being made as quietly as possible, with little fuss or defense on their behalf.

Again, just tossing that out there. I have no clue what the actual situation is, so I could just as well be spitting in the wind. (Still don't like the badge changes though)
If I remember correctly NCsoft bought out the entire City of Heroes IP, such IP would include Statesman etc. Meaning Jack has no way of having any control over them. He lost that ability the instance he decided to depart for making that other superhero MMO.

However I can see why these changes aren't being defended.
1) lets say that Positron comes out and says "Yes I did it out of spite, I wanted everything removed about Statesman, right down to the fact that his cape is flying above Atlas City Hall (Yes they actually changed that too) to be completely removed, I hated Jack, I hated his face." Then people would rightly be outraged, infact I imagine quite a few people would be downright disgusted enough that they would unsub there and then.

Not only that it would probably hit most gaming news websites and City of Heroes is made to not only lose subscribers but actively deter new ones.

2) They come out saying that "We didn't do out of spite," people call them liars and there is still the underlying feeling that is going on right now.

Now I was one who was iffy on killing off Sister Psyche, I felt her death was ultimately pointless. Statesman however I was 'eh' on.

However the sheer level of Retcon involved here where Statesman isn't simply being removed from the game "where appropriate", he is being made into an Unperson. Everything that even remotely references him, bar SSAs is being completely redone. Even arcs where, by all rights, he should be alive (a Hero's hero...since it takes place BEFORE the current timeline, hell Maria Jenkins references it in Hero's Epic).

Hence why the suggestion of, you create two versions of each badge, Statesman's Pal = Hero's Hero since you've travelled back in time to work with him. Positron's Pal = Hero's Epic since that is suppose to be in the current timeline. Both count towards Dimensional Warden (if the 'pal' badge does at the moment) the same way you should keep both Sister Psyche and Penny yin taskforce badges counting for the same slot in Taskforce commander.

As mentioned by Sam this is a retcon on the same level as the 5th Column->Council Retcon.

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A real showstopper!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
Remember, Positron isn't the lead Dev anymore, it's War Witch
Positron is still the lead developer - War Witch is the producer.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Lunk_NA View Post
Psssssst, if you're going to be mad at Matt for Mary Sue-ing Positron into the game, you might want to know:

Statesman and Sister Psyche were Jack Emmert's characters from pre-CoH.

Castle got some dude in a red spandex suit to play trainer in Peregrine, and no one even knows if he's even a super.

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
If I remember correctly NCsoft bought out the entire City of Heroes IP, such IP would include Statesman etc. Meaning Jack has no way of having any control over them. He lost that ability the instance he decided to depart for making that other superhero MMO.
Interestingly, the reason why Horus isn't featured in the game - or is ever likely to be featured in the game - is down to IP problems, so I'm not toally sure that NCSoft got hold of every single part of the CoH IP.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Castle got some dude in a red spandex suit to play trainer in Peregrine, and no one even knows if he's even a super.
It's orange and black, actually

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

You know, this is More of the reason why I'm refusing to play WWD. Killing off Statesman is of absolutely no value at all. The added insult of killing Psyche is just Wrong.

Really, I have Yet to hear a convincing argument for this.

Now, retconning the history of the game is even stupider. What is the meaning of being Incarnate, if we don't have Statesman as an example? What is the value of the whole cautionary tale, if we don't see the results of being too close to the Well?

What purpose does Lord Recluse have, without his opposite?

Are we supposed to buy Positron as a shining beacon of goodness now? He's just not equipped for it. Put Hero 1 in there, instead, he's at least qualified.

Look, the game has history. It has existed for most of a decade. Part of what the new kids are buying into, here, is that History. It does not overshadow them, it is a foundation that lifts them up. If, for whatever reason, Statesman and Psyche must be removed from the game's future, then their lives, history, and Taskforces must still remain in the game's past, and accessible through Ourboros.

As it is, there is a Statesman-shaped hole in the game, which completely overshadows the Sister Psyche-shaped hole.

Be Well!
Fireheart

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Lunk_NA View Post
From my POV, you've hit the nail on the head.
The death of Sister Psyche even feels like it only happened as she'd be the only one who outranked Positron and stood in the way of his promotion.
This is made even worse when you know that Positron was not a character created specificaly for CoH like all other rednames/npcs were.
Here's something else I've noticed, while we're on the subject:

The audience should never be able to spot the writer's hand at work. We all know these are just stories and they're all fake and everything in them happens because someone chose for it to happen. Of course we do. But the magic of the experience comes from being able to pretend it's real and the actions in it are real. That the story has some kind of weight to it. This cannot happen if the audience can deduce or explain a plot point not through the plot itself, but by meta-story circumstances from either the writer's personal life or from lack of subtlety in story execution.

For instance, if a beloved character dies in a very poignant way, this may make me angry as a fan of the character. If it's handled well, I will be angry at the villain who killed my favourite character. I will want to see this villain get his comeuppance. I will be more invested in the story because I will want to see an in-story resolution. If it's handled poorly, however, I will be angry at the WRITER. I will want to see the writer ashamed of what he's done, and I will be less invested in the story because it will seem like the writer is ruining the whole thing by ruining the illusion.

Even when we're not talking about big character deaths or dramatic reveals, the rule still remains - the writer's hand must always be invisible. That's the only way to maintain the illusion and keep the story feeling "real."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireheart View Post
Now, retconning the history of the game is even stupider.
The SSAs aren't a retcon of the history of the game - they advance it.
It's important to rememebr that right form the start, the SSAs have been marketed as not just another story arc - they're world changing events that have an impact on the whole game, as they advance the meta-story.
For new players joinign after I23, Statesman will have a similar status to Hero 1 before the RWZ revamp - a famous hero took part in important events, but was "removed" from the game before the player's own timeline/career started.
The SSAs allow players to experience a major world chanign event in "real time", as each episode is released - and then at the end of the story arc the game world is permanently changed, and the arc then becomes a "historical" arc.
That's how SSA1 unfolded, and it's how SSA2 also looks like it'll unfold, going by the short overview of its storyline that we've gotten so far.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I really like all the ridiculous conspiracy theories about the death of Statesman....they amuse me greatly.

Occam's Razor, people, Occam's Razor....

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
2) They come out saying that "We didn't do out of spite," people call them liars and there is still the underlying feeling that is going on right now.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not Thanos. It really doesn't matter what PR spin the studio put out at this point, because their actions speak for themselves. The solution here would have been to NOT mishandle the SSAs so poorly and to, you know, communicate with people. Talk about the SSAs, explain the creative process (*snerk*), explain the reasoning and the whole thing. They have to protect the surprise, fine. Didn't stop them from spoiling the spotlight death half a month in advance but whatever. They have to hide the surprise. So immediately AFTER the surprise hits, talk about it. Put a SPOILERS tag on the thread, post from a red name account who doesn't show up in the digest if need be, but work with us.

A blind man could see where this was going to go miles before it got there, and the way it's being handled is pretty much the antithesis of what made City of Heroes' development team so loved back in the day. How the studio is handling the SSA issue is EA levels of bad conduct. It's either nothing said, or Doc Aeon snarking about it on Ustream. This is Jack Emmert flatout telling people their complaints were a "dead horse" way back in 2004. This is the kind of attitude that causes developers to be vilified.

You know why BABs was so popular on the forums that people felt he could do no wrong? Because the guy was there in the trenches with us, giving us straight answers. Sure, they weren't always the answers we wanted to hear, but the guy honestly did what he could. I know more about the City of Heroes animation system from what BABs has explained to us about it than I probably should, but BECAUSE he told us so much about it, I can understand why we can't have some of the nice things we want.

You know why David Nakayama was so popular when he still worked on City of Heroes? Because the guy wasn't too proud to work with us. We pooed on the Gunslinger pack over the gender segregation, and David didn't just tell us we were wrong. No, he started a thread of communication to get to the bottom of the issue and, sure enough, a few Sets later those complaints are gone. David did what Positron promised to do and didn't really - he gave us what we wanted. He asked us what we wanted, discussed the creative process with us, let us in on what could and couldn't be done and why, and the new costume sets are selling like hot cakes.

This studio is not learning the right lessons, and fiascos like this keep happening. And they will keep happening until someone remembers exactly why it was that those of us who stuck to our guns and supported the "Surviving 15" developers during the dark days of post-CoV did what we did. And this kind of studio conduct isn't it, because this kind of studio conduct didn't happen then, at least nowhere near to this degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
I really like all the ridiculous conspiracy theories about the death of Statesman....they amuse me greatly.

Occam's Razor, people, Occam's Razor....
Yup. The simplest explanation is to just take Matt Miller on his word that the Statesman was killed to "break away" from Cryptic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

And yet somehow, life moves on...