I'm against the removal of Statesman from events that took place before the SSA, and i'm certainly against the removal of the Statesman's Pal badge. That badge means a lot to some of my characters, representing a defining moment in their personal history.
Not to mention Positron's Pal doesn't even make sense. Statesman's Pal is a reference to "Jimmy Olsen, Superman's Pal". Positron is no Superman.
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They just need to replace all references to Statesman, in lore, with "some hero who led the Freedom Phalanx before Positron" and we'd be there. |
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
As mentioned by Sam this is a retcon on the same level as the 5th Column->Council Retcon.
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You and I play MMOs for very different reasons, then. I've played quite a few since I started with City of Heroes, and I've yet to find one with "cool gameplay." Pretty much the best out there is, really, City of Heroes, because it has by far the most inoffensive gameplay that lets me play it with the least amount of hassle.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
MMO's aren't really my first resort when I'm looking for a deep, involving storyline. I'm happiest when there's just enough plot to provide some context to my character's actions, but not so much that I'm missing out by not reading the clues and TL/DR'ing most of the contact dialog.
Awesome maps & cool gameplay, on the other hand...THAT'S what I'm here for! |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Killing Statesman off- fine.
Retconning my badges so that my toon never even has proof of knowing him- No.
Stop being petty. Statesman is still an integral part of this game.
And for the record: Statesman was a more well developed character then Positron ever was. After Positron was able to release all of his energy, his story kind of died out. But Statesman.. sure he was sorta flat and a stuffed shirt.... that was his personality. But he had The whole story with the well thing going and the rivalry with Recluse and he was involved in all sorts of game lore.
Positron just took his helmet off.
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I'll echo most here in expressing my displeasure over the seeming total retcon of Statesman from events that happened BEFORE the SSA. Removing him as a TF contact makes sense, but to remove him from Marie Jenkins arc is a bit much. I feel epic when I rescue him. It's one of my favorite arcs in the game and should not be changed only for the sake of change. It isn't necessary. If you're dead set on changing this arc, at least leave the one in Ouroborus alone so that those of us who want to rescue Statesman can rescue him and get the old badge. Nothing against Positron, but it doesn't feel quite as epic, IMO.|
Originally Posted by Kid Snowflake
I'm against the removal of Statesman from events that took place before the SSA, and i'm certainly against the removal of the Statesman's Pal badge. That badge means a lot to some of my characters, representing a defining moment in their personal history.
Not to mention Positron's Pal doesn't even make sense. Statesman's Pal is a reference to "Jimmy Olsen, Superman's Pal". Positron is no Superman. |
YMMV.
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Personally, I don't have a problem with A Hero's Epic swapping the Statesman for Positron. It's supposed to be taking place "now," and "now" the Statesman is dead. It makes sense, therefore, for the arc to feature someone who's alive.|
Originally Posted by Asgardian_Blade
I'll echo most here in expressing my displeasure over the seeming total retcon of Statesman from events that happened BEFORE the SSA. Removing him as a TF contact makes sense, but to remove him from Marie Jenkins arc is a bit much. I feel epic when I rescue him. It's one of my favorite arcs in the game and should not be changed only for the sake of change. It isn't necessary. If you're dead set on changing this arc, at least leave the one in Ouroborus alone so that those of us who want to rescue Statesman can rescue him and get the old badge. Nothing against Positron, but it doesn't feel quite as epic, IMO.
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A Hero's Hero, on the other hand, is in the past. It took place in 2004, it took place before the destruction of Galaxy City. It's an echo of an old event. There's no reason for it to change. It may not make sense, and it doesn't have to. It's referring to a previous time that has since lost its context.
Don't re-write the past, please. We don't need another "group that was superseded by the Council."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In terms of comic book superhero worlds, this is a pretty soft retcon. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Or a total ret-con? Okay.
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Except that I already did the mission that gave me the Statesman's Pal badge. I didn't do the one that gave me Positron's.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Because that system can't change missions. Because they want to move the story forward, and it's pretty much all or nothing for something this big.
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This isn't moving forward, it's a retcon.
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Well one thing I do know Sam, is that I am no where near as up on the lore as you are or try to keep track of the intricacies. I enjoy your posts because I learn a lot. However, I've been running iTrials for a year now and personally don't consider Hero's Epic in the "now". That maybe incorrect according to lore, but I sorta put the SSA as occurring before the iTrials but after that arc, maybe only because it's been in the game for so long it seems that way. I bow to your superior lore knowledge, but that's why I have a problem with changing it.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Personally, I don't have a problem with A Hero's Epic swapping the Statesman for Positron. It's supposed to be taking place "now," and "now" the Statesman is dead. It makes sense, therefore, for the arc to feature someone who's alive.
A Hero's Hero, on the other hand, is in the past. It took place in 2004, it took place before the destruction of Galaxy City. It's an echo of an old event. There's no reason for it to change. It may not make sense, and it doesn't have to. It's referring to a previous time that has since lost its context. Don't re-write the past, please. We don't need another "group that was superseded by the Council." |
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That just says that retcons are ridiculous story telling devices that should be done less than they are.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
In terms of comic book superhero worlds, this is a pretty soft retcon.
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Switching the badge I ALREADY got doesn't make sense. I didn't save positron, I saved Statesman. Hell for those specific characters they've never even met positron (cause i never did the garbage that was the old Positron tf on them for obvious reasons that lead to the positron tf being revamped).
For characters going forward who are just going to do that arc fine.
Again, not seeing the logic here.
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I don't even think it's a "now" or "then" issue.|
Originally Posted by Asgardian_Blade
Well one thing I do know Sam, is that I am no where near as up on the lore as you are or try to keep track of the intricacies. I enjoy your posts because I learn a lot. However, I've been running iTrials for a year now and personally don't consider Hero's Epic in the "now". That maybe incorrect according to lore, but I sorta put the SSA as occurring before the iTrials but after that arc, maybe only because it's been in the game for so long it seems that way. I bow to your superior lore knowledge, but that's why I have a problem with changing it.
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It's the issue that I've ALREADY rescued Statesman once.
It doesn't freaking matter if it was now, then, yesterday or during the era when the earth was forming. My character's did it. The badge represents that. Whether he died later or not is irrelevant.
It makes no sense when character's all have that memory and experience.
Going forward it makes more sense on characters who never ran the original arc, and thus never MEET statesman. You can't tell me that they don't have the ability to award more than one badge that's similar.
(note: this is not a rail against you personally, it's just a rail against the whole silly idea. :P)
Question: Am I dreaming or did I read that they are keeping the original arc in Oroborus? Cause then the badge change makes even LESS sense.
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That's a different issue than the comment I was replying to. And one I already addressed.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Except that I already did the mission that gave me the Statesman's Pal badge. I didn't do the one that gave me Positron's.
This isn't moving forward, it's a retcon. |
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Letting it be known what my objection is more clearly. I just don't think they should be changing a badge for a mission already completed unless there is a significant reason for it.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
That's a different issue than the comment I was replying to. And one I already addressed.
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By the way, still wondering if the original arc is in Oroborous. Anyone know?
EDIT: You mentioned consistency being the possible reason for this. Except that it isn't consistent. The events of that arc ALREADY happened for those characters with that badge. it's even LESS consistent if they keep the original arc in oroborous. The tech issues I don't buy either. Simply keep the old badge (not tech touched) and give a new ONE to those who attempt the new arc. I see no issue with having two badges, one called "Statesman's Pal" and "Positron's Pal".
ASSUMING that the characters who did the original arc that gave Statesman's Pal will now go and do the arc that give's Positron's Pal. That's a freaking huge assumption.
If a character never goes to do the one that gives the Posi badge, I don't see the issue. Simply let them keep Statesman's Pal badge. Except that's NOT what they are doing here.
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My thinking is they can't change the badge for the revised version of the mission without changing the ones already awarded. I'm wondering, though, if there's not a way to run a check when they apply the update to see who has the old version and award a new badge detached from the mission that's the old badge.
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Not for changing the badges that are already awarded. For changing instances where States and Psych are portrayed as alive during the gameplay...
| EDIT: You mentioned consistency being the possible reason for this |
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So much about "Who Will Die?" has given me this exact reaction. It is just sad. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Really?
Really?! That's just sad. They need to fix it so we can have both. I have to say I'll be really, really disappointed if this goes live. |
I would hope this is just one of those things they just did not think through too carefully, because so much of this looks really, really bad.
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Make a new badge for those that touch that arc again. Give them that new badge. Problem solved. They now have both.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
My thinking is they can't change the badge for the revised version of the mission without changing the ones already awarded. I'm wondering, though, if there's not a way to run a check when they apply the update to see who has the old version and award a new badge detached from the mission that's the old badge.
Not for changing the badges that are already awarded. For changing instances where States and Psych are portrayed as alive during the gameplay... |
We already know it's possible for them to create duplicates. Take a look at what happens to some badges/accolades when you switch sides.
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Why not... stay with me here... why not just put a new badge in for the new arc?|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
My thinking is they can't change the badge for the revised version of the mission without changing the ones already awarded. I'm wondering, though, if there's not a way to run a check when they apply the update to see who has the old version and award a new badge detached from the mission that's the old badge.
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Instead of changing badge number 45 why not add a badge number 3001 or what ever they are currently up to?
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There's that too. Either way the result would be the same. Detaching "Positron's Pal" from the mission and creating a new badge for the mission. ( Or creating a new badge and awarding it to the ones who have the old one. Again, same net result )
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Gnashing of teeth aside, have to agree with the general sentiments expressed here. If we're replacing the current Maria Jenkins arc where you rescue Statesman with one where you rescue Positron, shove the Statesman version into Ouroborus with the original arc and let us get the Statesman's Pal badge through that while the new Positron version gives us the Positron's Pal.
I can kind of understand why the Sister Psyche/Penelope Yin badge might be a sticky widget from a coding perspective, just with how it ties into the Task Force Commander accolade. I'm taking a wild guess here, but I don't think the way the accolades are currently rigged that you can set it so it goes "You must have badges X AND Y AND Zed AND/OR Q." Just not how they're coded.
But the Statesman one... it just feels a little much. I think the Statesman's Pal is actually a Defeat badge, tied into defeating Tyrant/The Olympian Guard. Would it be possible to make a duplicate Olympian Guard for the new arc, one that's tied into the new Positron's Pal, which awards the new badge upon defeat?
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I am not Positron's pal nor Statesman's pal.
I am a ******* Super Villain. >:[
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Kinda related, but spurred by this uproar... I find it funny how most of the talk was how much of a Mary Sue Statesman was as Jack's insert into the game and how cheesy, flat, etc the character was right up until they killed him off. 
Sure, Positron's stepping into that position, but still...
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Ahem, STOP CHANGING MY CHARACTER'S PAST TO FIT YOUR GAME'S FUTURE!
I can understand changing the badges for those who gain them in the future, but I gained that badge when it was still Tyrant we fought, and Statesman in the shackles... I fought my way through the Praetorians and I freed STATESMAN...
It is an integral part of my back-story for Liberties actually, as that was a moment when he fought with himself, his past history with Statesman leading him to want to let him rot, but his current status as a newly redeemed hero being tested.
I am Statesman's Pal...
Positron smells, he wears that damn suit too much...
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I think people are putting way too much significance on what the badges represent "in character". For the most part, aside from a few exceptions, they seem to me to be "out of character" things. Just achievements under a different name. I don't think you actually have someone pop up and hand you a medal for hopping through the doughnut in Faultline, for example. |
Originally Posted by elvnsword09
Ahem, STOP CHANGING MY CHARACTER'S PAST TO FIT YOUR GAME'S FUTURE!
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Changing the name of an achievement isn't changing your character's past...I can totally understand not wanting it to change, wanting something to display that you did it the old way... However, you're turning it into something it's not.
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Indeed.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Kinda related, but spurred by this uproar... I find it funny how most of the talk was how much of a Mary Sue Statesman was as Jack's insert into the game and how cheesy, flat, etc the character was right up until they killed him off.
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Although I have zero love for Stateman and still don't see the logic in changing the badge. The reality for my characters who have it is they rescued Statesman- my opinion of the character is irrelevant, it's an act they performed, a badge they earned and ti shouldn't be messed with absent some sort of vitally compelling reason.
I haven't seen any reason at all given thus far, let alone a compelling one.
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I couldn't agree more.