So what you're saying is they're doing the 5th Column -> Council retcon again, with Jack Emmert -> Matt Miller? Yeah, because that worked so well last time. We still occasionally have debates whether or not it was made to appease German laws, now we get to have debates about whether or not THIS was done out of petty spite.
I can't wait to see what gets changed when it shouldn't have, like how maybe it was Positron who survived a nuclear blast or how it was Positron who was Maria Jenkins' friend all along, or how Independence Port was saved from an invading armada of Positrons.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sign me up for keeing the badges of the arcs we did and introducing the Penny badge for doing her TF (and making either viable for the TFC accolade) and Statesman's Pal for Hero's Hero/Positron's Pal for Hero's Epic.
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Agreed, the positron TF treatment worked well, the same for Penny/Sister please.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Sign me up for keeing the badges of the arcs we did and introducing the Penny badge for doing her TF (and making either viable for the TFC accolade) and Statesman's Pal for Hero's Hero/Positron's Pal for Hero's Epic.
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It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
/Signed, leave them as they are and allow for Ouro travel. The mechanism is THERE, guys, use the damn thing.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Is that what the kids are calling these days?|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
self insertion?
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Wait, no, I'm thinking of something else.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It doesn't make sense, since the whole arc is not only being removed, when it happened before Statesman's Death, it's being removed to the point they don't want it to look like it ever existed.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Changing a Hero's Epic to feature Positron as the one we rescue makes sense, as it avoids having a repeat of Statesman being captured - but it doesn't maske sense for the original Hero's Hero arc to not give us the Statesman's Pal badge.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It's being debated? With the choice of characters to kill off, I thought it was prety obvious.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So what you're saying is they're doing the 5th Column -> Council retcon again, with Jack Emmert -> Matt Miller? Yeah, because that worked so well last time. We still occasionally have debates whether or not it was made to appease German laws, now we get to have debates about whether or not THIS was done out of petty spite.
I can't wait to see what gets changed when it shouldn't have, like how maybe it was Positron who survived a nuclear blast or how it was Positron who was Maria Jenkins' friend all along, or how Independence Port was saved from an invading armada of Positrons. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
We have always been at war with Eastasia....
COH/CoV - Virtue
8 Ball - Lev 50 Kin/Energy Defender
The Canadian Fist - Lev 50 Ice/EM Blaster
Omega Ghost - Lev 50 Robo/Dark MM
Ghostfall - Lev 50 Arachnos Crab Soldier
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Yeah, we know about that but this is re-wrting history.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
To explain:
They removed Statesman from the game i23. The mission to rescue him from the Praetorians used to give you the "Statesman's Pal" badge. They changed both the mission and the badge to refer to Positron, even if you already had the badge. Which, frankly I think is BS because there's no reason the mission couldn't have taken place at a point in time before Statesman died, or couldn't have kept existing as a Flashback with the changed arc granting a new badge. . |
My bubbler and other characters rescued Statemsn. Statesman is a part of this game's bacground lore, from the first Rikti invasion to his demise at the hands of Darrin Wade. Changing this smacks of hubris. I would rather they remove Positron's Pal from my badgelist rather than changing it. Or let us get Statesman's Pal from Ouro and we can get the new one.
Really dislike this change. A lot.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Yeah, something like this...it's not just removing him from the game where it's logical; it's scrubbing his presence and memory from the game and revising history. That raises some red flags and makes me really uncomfortable. If I have to spell it out, go read Animal Farm or The Children's Story. There definitely is more to this than just the company line of killing him to create drama in the game's world.|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Yeah...remember I made that thread about being unsure whether it was company spite or not...
Some of the replies were like "LOL he's still on the title screen!" Yeah he's not come Issue 23, all badges that refer to him are being changed to Positron, the Lord Recluse Strikeforce makes a heck of a lot less sense now that Statesman is removed (removing the 'showing up Statesman' thing which was THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE LRSF). This is almost a One More Day level of retconning to be that Statesman didn't exist in the first place. New players are going to play the SSAs and be like "oh, who is the chump that died?", they're not going to care about him because there's nothing there in the rest of the game to care about. His death has even less impact than the return of Hero One with the Lady Grey Taskforce. Hero One at least has the cape mission giving you the backstory. Statesman after Issue 23...nuthin but the SSAs will even mention him. I get the honest feeling Positron isn't so much as stepping out of Jack Emmertts shadow is he is becoming just like him (My vision, My Rules, doesn't care about established lore). |
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"Positron is a character of mine from an old Champions campaign that I played in high school, so he's like almost twenty years old, the idea for him now. He's actually gone through many, many iterations, he's had different power sets, different origins, different, you know, everything in the times I've played him in all these different role-playing games, and so when I came to Cryptic Studios, I just wanted to make sure that the character was able to be put into the game, you know, add him to the IP, and so I did."|
Originally Posted by TRTerror
self insertion?
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(Source: http://paragonwiki.com/w/images//d/d9/Positron.ogg)
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I agree that they should add totally new badge tracking tech to solve this grievous conundrum.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Sign me up for keeing the badges of the arcs we did and introducing the Penny badge for doing her TF (and making either viable for the TFC accolade) and Statesman's Pal for Hero's Hero/Positron's Pal for Hero's Epic.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
/Signed, leave them as they are and allow for Ouro travel. The mechanism is THERE, guys, use the damn thing.
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Killing Statesman off is one thing, retconning him out of the game just to get back at his creator is petty and lame.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
Signed, double-signed, triple-signed, sealed and hand-delivered. This is just ridiculous.
Devs, you know better than this, and you need to listen to the playerbase before you make a very bad mis-step. Leave Statesman's Pal as the badge earned from Hero's Hero through Ouroboros, and make Positron's Pal the new badge for A Hero's Epic. Same deal with Psyche/Penelope, Give the new badge for Penny's TF, and let us run the TF through Ouro to earn Psyche's badge (Or keep it if we already earned it). Re-writing personal player character history through badges will not go over well, and it IS petty. Like it or not, those characters are part of the game's history, and we'd like to keep them around if only as a memory.
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Yeah this whole thing certainly gives off that kind of vibe...
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Originally Posted by 8_Ball
We have always been at war with Eastasia....
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Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
I may have a badge that say's I'm Statesman's pal, but he rarely returns my phone calls and he's NEVER available to do lunch. He's one of those jerks that calls himself your friend only when he needs something from you.
_________
@Inquisitor
Because nothing says 'take that, Jack' like keeping his signature character as the focal point of the game for four years after he left.
That said, switching badges is a no-no. Find a way to keep the badges and keep States and Psyche in anything pre-40, and call it a day.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
I find it hard to believe that anyone actually cares about this change in light of that thread about badges the other week. I don't recall a single person arguing that individual badges were truly meaningful to them as anything but an indicator of some specific bit of progress. What is believable is that people are opposed to any change at all, but after some reflection they may find that this doesn't mean much for either their gameplay or their roleplay experiences.
I dont understand why its necessary. Its not like issue #62 of a comic stop existing just because its on #367
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We don't care about the badge, we care about the superdickery behind the change. It's just shameful for company policy to be this way, it repeats very obvious mistakes of the past and it's just jerkish behaviour. There's no need for it. Removing the Statesman of the "here and now" is one thing. He died because Matt Miller wanted to get back at Jack Emmert. Fine, I get that. Removing him FROM THE PAST should not happen.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I find it hard to believe that anyone actually cares about this change in light of that thread about badges the other week. I don't recall a single person arguing that individual badges were truly meaningful to them as anything but an indicator of some specific bit of progress. What is believable is that people are opposed to any change at all, but after some reflection they may find that this doesn't mean much for either their gameplay or their roleplay experiences.
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City of Heroes is enough of a mess from the endless ret-cons because "what kind of a boss" would Matt Miller be if he expected his writers to show some kind of consistency in storytelling. Ret-conning it even more for no reason other than to be malicious is just double the wrong.
And besides, there are some things related to badges that people simply dislike. Again I bring up the Patriot badge. Originally, this was atop City Hall near the US flag and said how our characters had become patriots by saluting that flat. Because a lot of people and a lot of characters aren't American, many people complained, myself among them. Patriot was then moved downstairs to one of the statues of a super heroine who was proclaimed citizen of every nation in the world, thus people saluting her statue were patriots not just to the United States of America, but rather to the entire world. And I like it. The badge at the flag remains, but now it talks about how that particular piece of cloth was once the Statesman's cape, which brings with it a whole different kind of honour more than being JUST about a US flag. I like that, as well.
I can't wait to see that badge ret-conned into how this was Positron's first baby blanket.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Add me to the don't understand why he needs to be scrubbed from the game list.
I was all for killing him off, but this is asinine.
If that's what you're going to go with I'm even less impressed. For one thing, see SpyralPegacyon's post above. For another, there is an easier explanation available, which I shouldn't have to remind you is that their goal was to get players out of Statesman's shadow. This is more plausible for a wide variety of reasons, such as the fact that Positron does not govern the game by personal fiat and the fact that we actually have no reason to assume he runs his team with the attitude of a five year old. In most circumstances people wouldn't even suggest that as it is incredibly insulting, but welcome to the City of Heroes forums.
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Getting players out of his shadow, while leaving them something to aspire to makes sense. |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If that's what you're going to go with I'm even less impressed. For one thing, see SpyralPegacyon's post above. For another, there is an easier explanation available, which I shouldn't have to remind you is that their goal was to get players out of Statesman's shadow. This is more plausible for a wide variety of reasons, such as the fact that Positron does not govern the game by personal fiat and the fact that we actually have no reason to assume he runs his team with the attitude of a five year old. In most circumstances people wouldn't even suggest that as it is incredibly insulting, but welcome to the City of Heroes forums.
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Killing him and then scrubbing him from the story of thousands of toons doesn't.
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I wouldn't have suggested that five years ago when Matt Miller took over the company and was trumpeting "Give the players what they want." I supported this, and the game became much better. I CAN say this now in light of what he has personally said, here and elsewhere, and what I'm seeing is happening to the game. The wanton disregard for quality in anything but pure visuals (the art team seems to have pretty constantly high popularity, and deservedly so) does make one cynical. At this point, writing stories based on personal pettiness as opposed to any sort of artistic integrity is the norm, and I am shocked and amazed on the very rare occasions when a story is good on its own merits, rather than feeling like it was mandated by something "more important," like shoving raids down our throats or promoting Positron as the greatest thing since radioactive toasters.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
If that's what you're going to go with I'm even less impressed. For one thing, see SpyralPegacyon's post above. For another, there is an easier explanation available, which I shouldn't have to remind you is that their goal was to get players out of Statesman's shadow. This is more plausible for a wide variety of reasons, such as the fact that Positron does not govern the game by personal fiat and the fact that we actually have no reason to assume he runs his team with the attitude of a five year old. In most circumstances people wouldn't even suggest that as it is incredibly insulting, but welcome to the City of Heroes forums.
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And again, even IF we accept that the Statesman had to die to get people from out his shadow (so why did Sister Psyche had to die, then?), this doesn't mean that any trace of him have to be removed from the game. He existed, he as a history, he had adventures, he had a moral code and some degree of integrity. The Statesman is part of this game, and whether alive or dead, he needs to REMAIN a part of this game. Atlas died long before the game's time period, but that doesn't mean he has no place in the game. A statue of him exists, life-size as I hear, we know about the people he saved, the battles he fought and how he died. The 5th Column -> Council transition screwed him up, yes (the Indy Port Security Chief briefing still says he fought off an ALIEN ARMADA there, as opposed to a 5th Column raid), but Atlas still exists in backstory.
Talos still exists, Galaxy Girl still exists... Or existed until someone decided to drop a bridge on Galaxy City and we kind of forgot about her. The heroes of the past still exist in memory, in history and in the tales we tell. There is NO REASON to remove the Statesman's name from events that took place in the past, before his death. No reason which isn't insulting, at the very least.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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self insertion?