It seems MMOs, much like most of society, strongly believe there must be the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. It isn't a terrible idea for a game but whatever.
My concern here is putting the best costume sets (for some of us) as the tier 9 reward. Add some stuff in the tier 9 rewards for those long time customers but does it have to be some of the best stuff ever created? There are 2 costume sets in the tier 9 slot and now they're adding mech. Many of us have been wanting the mech gear and stuff like celestial for years. Sadly now we are teased with them and they are kept out of reach. Maybe they will release them to the store one day SOON(tm). I guess they want many people to first drop a ton of cash to get the tokens to get to tier 9 then release them once that market is done. A very nasty sales tactic.
The mech and celestial packs make most of the recent purchasable costume packs look pretty lame. It is some nice stuff. I really don't get what Paragon is getting at by doing this to the rest of the loyal players.
Yes, have some tier 9 stuff but does it have to be stuff players have been wanting for so long?! It seems this game is all about dangling the carrot just beyond our reach...making sure we can't have our cake and eat it too. I think somewhere along the line people forgot this is supposed to be a game and fun. I think some of Paragon marketing might be out of touch with the players.
Finally, I am all for any other method than this extortion plan Paragon marketing has put in. I know many people that dumped a pile of $ to get to tier 9 just for the Celestial pack. It is rather sad this is happening. I never have ever felt so betrayed in my life...the game I supported since 2007 has stuck its dagger in me....it has cut deep.... 
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Originally Posted by TheJazMan
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Eeesh, I'm all for opening the options up to more people - and I know we're emotional creatures and all - but cut back on the melodrama, mate.
It only opens you up to greater criticism and damages the valid feedback.
You make some good points, but I'd back off a bit.
And, honestly (and I say this sincerely and with zero wish to offend), if that is the worst betrayal you have felt... you are a very lucky person. At the very least, let that be a positive spin for ya.
Remember, I'm with you on the overall opinion, but let's take a step back and reevaluate the importance of things.
I do understand, however, within the context of game/hobby/funplaytime that these things can be a downer.
EDIT: This post may not read nearly as friendly as I intended it. And, hey, no one needs to do as I say or anything, so be as emotional or dramatic or whatever you choose, as you wish. Just offering my sincere thoughts.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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So, if these rewards were feasibly within reach for Bob he'd pay for a month's subscription and drop enough money to get a couple of reward tokens to acquire these pieces - which is more than one would normally pay for a costume set. |
Originally Posted by StrifeFox
Here's the problem with that. Lets say they make it where anyone with a VIP current status can purchase any VIP tier 9. And lets say that 'bob' I'll call him. Player Bob who is a free player decides he wants those really bad. He pays for 1 month of game and buys some PP points, spending maybe 50 bucks. Earning himself a few extra Reward tokens to spend. He slots out those pretty VIP costume pieces an then he never pays again until there is something luring to him again.
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If they're out of reach and likely to rotate off of the Tier 9 VIP reward selection before Bob can get anywhere near them, Bob has no incentive to try and reach them, and thus pays nothing into the game.
One of these is more beneficial to the game, the other is only beneficial to status hounds.
As a Tier 9 who has the Celestial and Fire & Ice sets, and is prepared to acquire the Mecha set when it comes out, I support the OP's suggestion.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
No.
They are just costumes now but the devs could put in better stuff if they wanted.
I paid to get past T8 and I'm sure a lot of people have paid to go up the ladder so it's too late to change it now.
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I appreciate your words. I do. But this is a set I have been asking for...for years. Same with the Celestial pack. They have upset me so much that I have decided to opt out of the Pummit and I am debating stopping my sub after the month is up. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Eeesh, I'm all for opening the options up to more people - and I know we're emotional creatures and all - but cut back on the melodrama, mate.
It only opens you up to greater criticism and damages the valid feedback. You make some good points, but I'd back off a bit. And, honestly (and I say this sincerely and with zero wish to offend), if that is the worst betrayal you have felt... you are a very lucky person. At the very least, let that be a positive spin for ya. Remember, I'm with you on the overall opinion, but let's take a step back and reevaluate the importance of things. I do understand, however, within the context of game/hobby/funplaytime that these things can be a downer. EDIT: This post may not read nearly as friendly as I intended it. And, hey, no one needs to do as I say or anything, so be as emotional or dramatic or whatever you choose, as you wish. Just offering my sincere thoughts. |
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I hear ya.|
Originally Posted by TheJazMan
I appreciate your words. I do. But this is a set I have been asking for...for years. Same with the Celestial pack. They have upset me so much that I have decided to opt out of the Pummit and I am debating stopping my sub after the month is up.
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It's hobby/fun/playtime, but we do invest ourselves in such ventures.
Take some time away from thinking about it. It can be quite disappointing when the places we look to for escape cause frustration and disappointment... especially when it is through intention and decisions being made.
Those options will be more accessible to you eventually. How and when, we don't know. One way or the other, they will eventually though.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
It's never too late for change.|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
No.
They are just costumes now but the devs could put in better stuff if they wanted. I paid to get past T8 and I'm sure a lot of people have paid to go up the ladder so it's too late to change it now. |
I understand you would feel cheated if this is changed, but look at the positive side, you have all Reward slots filled because of that. You are not losing anything.
If this is implemented, those who are at, say, T4 would still have to pay extra, like you and a lot of others have done, to fill all slots or wait about two years before they have T8 filled.
I'm glad that you could pay your way up the tree, i really am, several of my friends did this too. However, there are people who have been unemployed for a long time, i am also unemployed for a year, and am using my GR money to keep my sub active. Hell, for all of last year i had to go to Starbux to play the game since i could not afford internet at home. If that is not dedication to this game i do not know what is.
If i had a job, i'd buy my way up the tree too, but i'd still advocate for this to change, because being a VIP is being a VIP.
It is somewhat misleading in the T9VIP description which states that VIPs can pick these rewards, when it is actually VIPs who have filled the whole tree.
Also the argument that you can not skip a Tier because of data issues is invalid, since people can skip past the T9 (Repeatable rewards) and pick the T9VIP rewards if they are VIP and have T8 filled.
Dark Energon, Founder of the Freedom Legion SG on Guardian server.
(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
Weekly events on Guardian: W.A.V.E. & FNFN
I was unemployed for several years, I appreciate the difficult situation you are in. I have worked hard to never be unemployed again.
If I was unemployed now I would appreciate that I was able to play this game for little money and I would not be appealing to the community to give me the mecha armor. It would be the least of my concerns.
To be honest, i'm not really interested in the Mecha Armor myself, so far i have 0 toons that would fit this, and i have 26 out of 26 slots filled with toons.
I am also not appealing to the crowd to give me any set, I'd taken a whole different approach if i did this for selfish reasons.
I'm doing this because imo, if you make something VIP only, make it available to all VIPs, not just a select few, a VIP is a VIP, no matter what.
If i buy VIP tickets to a game, i expect to be seated in the VIP section with all the VIP benefits, not sitting in the VIP section only to hear that i also have to pay extra for things because it's my 1st time in the stadium or because i normally have tickets for the nosebleed section.
I'm doing this because like me, people are struggling with their finances, not able to pay their way up the reward tree to get these awesome costume parts.
I do this so that people who are contemplating between buying points or paying for a sub, have more reason to choose the sub, because we all know that the amount of subs for a game will free up external resources a game with less subscribers won't get. I'm not talking about revenue from people buying points, i'm talking about NCsoft dedicating more resources to PS because they see that the subscriber base is going up. Advertisers are more willing to dedicate ad space for games with larger player bases, or invest resources because that know they are reaching a larger audience.
People were complaining that several in-game items/powers/rewards were locked behind several gates, making people jump through many hoops. Here's a great example of some awesome costume pieces several people worked hard on to be placed in the game, only to be locked behind several gates. The VIP gate i agree with, the additional gate of the amount of reward tokens to unlock it, i do not agree with.
Dark Energon, Founder of the Freedom Legion SG on Guardian server.
(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
Weekly events on Guardian: W.A.V.E. & FNFN
Add me to the list of those who support VIP Tier's 9s staying the same as they are now.
As a matter of fact, I support the entire Paragon Reward system as is. It is a way for Paragon to show it's most loyal customers (whether through time or monetary investment) their gratitude.
I have two accounts:
My main was Tier 9 when Freedom hit (sub started in May 2004). $1700 total spent on my main account (Approx...give or take $50)
My second account was started when the whole $0.99 Freedom thing happened (November 2011) and is tier 6. I have made multiple purchases of paragon points... a few $15.. $50... I mean hello tier 6 almost tier 7 after 5 months.
My main account has every toon I have ever had; even my very first toon: Fire/Storm controller. My main account gets all the great goodies and has a surplus of tokens.
My second account not so much Do I feel cheated on my second account - yeah I do. I pay $30 a month to keep my old toons and play/make new ones. Any new toons I create on my home server are "less" in my opinion due to their rewards, but unfortunately I am maxed out on my main account. So my choices - delete toons I have had for 3-4-5-6-7-8 years... I don't think so, spend hundreds of more dollars, or deal with the inequality between my accounts.
So no I do not think the current system is fair as all my new toons are missing out on some great costumes because I love this game so much, but already have my slots filled up on my server. I think of all the time and money I have spent for CoX and then see people tell me to stop whining, wait, etc etc... my reply would get me mod smacked and probably banned from the boards.
I don't care if you have been here since beta - I have served my time without interruption for 8 years now...not ONE day of lapsed time. So I am being penalized for having TWO accounts because the tech somehow can't link them - even though its the same credit card, address, etc. Not everyone requesting this "feature" is some 1 year vet that you are afraid will have the goodies that you have slaved away for for 6-7 years.... maybe you should think of the other possibilities of WHY people are not tier 9 instead of assume it's someone who hasn't been here for that long.
So to the OP - I support your suggestion 100%. The vet reward system sucked before Freedom and the versatility and "freedom" of the paragon points system is basically just as bad.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I'm am seriously loving this discussion. So far I've seen the "but I'm poor, please give it to me anyway" argument, the "give it to me or I quit" argument and the "but it isn't fair" argument. Countering these I've the "but it's always been this way" argument, the "but I worked so hard to get here and the proposed change would belittle my work" argument. On both sides of the fence are the "but it would bring in more money from players" and "but it would cause players to spend less money." This is great!
Me personally? I'll add in a new one. "The fact this argument is between players vs other players rather than the players vs the devs implies the current system is the correct one."
Seriously though, I've been a player for quite a while. I'm not a veteran since launch or anything, but I've been here awhile. When I joined, I got to play alongside people who had characters with wings, who could teleport to their bases from anywhere and many had attack powers like the Nemesis Staff at level 1. Did I want these too? Absolutely? Did I think that just because I had the same subscription as my fellow players I should get them immediately, on my schedule, when I wanted? No. It wasn't a matter of how much money I'd put into the game, or how much money I hadn't, it was for how long I'd spend money on the game. Not how much, just how long. After all, I did get credit for the bonus subscription time I didn't pay for, such as when I invited a friend in with a buddy code, or these few times I could afford a multiple month subscription and was rewarded extra time. So it's time. That's what's being rewarded here. Not money.
CoH:F did change that approach a bit, with the award of Reward Tokens with the purchase of Paragon Points in addition to the ones awarded via longevity of a subscription. This change has eliminated the "reward for time" aspect of the game. It's now "reward for time and/or money." I don't particularly like this, but I don't think it's enough to warrant a further change to "reward for money." The fact that time remains a factor allows those without the resources to buy-in to still receive the rewards another way. I like that.
QR
This is a great idea /signed
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A tiered reward system has tiers, and to get rewards people have to progress through the tiers. That's the whole point of it -- to reward (or, provide an additional incentive for) financial dedication to the game, whether it's by subscribing or by buying Paragon Points.|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
I'm doing this because imo, if you make something VIP only, make it available to all VIPs, not just a select few, a VIP is a VIP, no matter what.
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The old Vet Rewards has reached the point where adding more to the top of it made the items unreachably far away for new players -- having to sub for seven years is not a prospect that makes an award system attractive. So the revamped system has already flattened the tree considerably, and stopped the problem recurring by capping the tree with a row of consumable items and account items that rotate in and out. Now a brand new subscriber will know that they will fill up to tier 8 in slightly under three years even if they never buy a Paragon Point, and the top is never going to get further away than that.
However, it still has the fundamental structure and properties of a tiered reward system.
There are attractive features all the way up the tier, and there are attractive things at the top of it. There's no point putting access to all the good stuff at the bottom for new subscribers, or all the good stuff at the top for only long-term vets. Every step of the way, there needs to be something attractive to subscribers, including in the repeatable tiers, otherwise the system isn't doing its job. You note that the tier nine costumes will be rotating back in, so that as more people reach tier nine they'll also have something to anticipate.
It's no more unfair to not be able to pick up a tier nine costume piece when you're on tier one than it is to not be able to pick up /auctionhouse or Assemble the Team. Or rather that 'unfairness' is a fundamental property of a tiered reward system. Allowing people to cherry-pick what they want from higher tiers goes against the whole concept and function, and is very unlikely to happen.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
/unsigned for a few reasons:
1. I played the game for several years along with plenty of points I paid out of pocket to earn those costumes and I'm sure there were people that dished out literally hundreds to access them. To find out any joe smo can get it half a year later... I could see this ticking off a lot of customers that paid cash to earn these rewards.
2. Not everyone has to have everything. You don't need them in any way shape or form, just want. And if you want them spend money or suck it up. Paragon studios has to make money you know. Techbot Alpha will tell you, people are willing to shell out big bucks for those costume parts. Why give them away for other than the reason "I WANTZ NAOW!"?
2. You feel betrayed by the fact that these costume parts were made so inaccessible? Well think about the people that paid $50/$100/$200+ to get those costumes only to find out they wasted $50/$100/$200+ bucks a year later. I think that betrayal wins hands down.
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While I'm also against the idea of making these available outside the current tiers, these reasons are among the most invalid arguments against it. You paid something and got it first. Finding out someone else paid something less than you did you get it much later than you did isn't a betrayal. It's a price drop and nothing more.
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Originally Posted by SmegHead
/unsigned for a few reasons:
1. I played the game for several years along with plenty of points I paid out of pocket to earn those costumes and I'm sure there were people that dished out literally hundreds to access them. To find out any joe smo can get it half a year later... I could see this ticking off a lot of customers that paid cash to earn these rewards. 3. You feel betrayed by the fact that these costume parts were made so inaccessible? Well think about the people that paid $50/$100/$200+ to get those costumes only to find out they wasted $50/$100/$200+ bucks a year later. I think that betrayal wins hands down. |
Going by a post by Zwill in another thread. I'd say leave it as is.
At some point they'll make the VIP Tier 9 costume rewards available to everyone else through some alternate transaction. Right now however, it looks like it's a Tier 9 VIP perk to get early access WAY WAY WAY before anyone else, and I don't see a problem with it.
It also encourages people to put the money into the game. Sure you might not want to put down 400 dollars at once, but, throwing in an extra bit a month to move yourself up the ladder is a possibility for many.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I think that I did hear something about Celestial dropping from T9 VIP in the near future, perhaps they will move it to the store?
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What are you talking about when you say "outside the current tiers"? I was talking about your idea. And your idea is worse than putting a price tag on it since it pretty much gives them out for free on the tier system as a first pick. If this was how they set it from the beginning fine, but since so many people already paid for these it wouldn't be smart. And if you look at the tier system as a whole, it seems they try to make the better stuff higher up... go figure. To have some of the best stuff first wouldn't make very much sense. |
Originally Posted by DustRaven
While I'm also against the idea of making these available outside the current tiers, these reasons are among the most invalid arguments against it. You paid something and got it first. Finding out someone else paid something less than you did you get it much later than you did isn't a betrayal. It's a price drop and nothing more.
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Oh, and its a price drop and nothing more you say? Me, I had to pay about $70 to unlock tier 9. That is a $55 price cut. A friend paid about $200 just to access one set of celestial armor. That is a $185 price drop. Someone new just has to sub to get the same thing? That's pretty significant price cut for us isn't it?
From the amount of people I see in game with celestial that are only 1, 2 and 3 year vets I think it seems rather successful. And that's what it boil down to. Its proven people will pay insane amount of money for this stuff. As long as it keeps doing that I don't see anything changing soon. Not to mention the fact that most of your points were brought up in beta by people that loathed the idea of making costume parts tier 9 (ask techbot and myself), but it went up as is anyway.
Alternate proposal:
Add a SPECIAL tier to the Rewards Tree.
When an item on T9VIP rotates OFF of T9VIP (which seems to take a year or more, from the looks of things), those items move to the SPECIAL tier.
VIPs can choose, rather than spending a Reward Token on whatever Tier they are up to on something from the SPECIAL tier.
This suggestion provides the OP what they are after (though likely slower than they are going to be happy with since they have to wait for things to rotate off the T9VIP onto the SPECIAL), and retains T9VIP and most of the value the T9VIP concept provides: Things that can NOT be gotten to without being a long-timer or spending tons of $$$.
There are two ways this could be implemented:
A> Spending on the SPECIAL tier does NOT count for progression up the rewards tree. or
B> Spending on the SPECIAL tier COUNTS as progression on whatever Tier level is the current one for the VIP Player, allowing them to select something, from the SPECIAL tier rather than Greek Symbols at T3 when they have already gotten the rest of T3 and selecting from the SPECIAL counts to 'complete' T3 and unlock T4.
How LONG it takes for something that has rotated OFF of T9VIP before it appears on SPECIAL would be totally up to the devs, of course.
Understand, as a T9VIP myself, the long and hard way ($1,000+ over the 8 years counting cost of game, subscription and boosters and NOT counting purchases on the Paragon Market since Freedom launched), I personally would PREFER if things that rotate off T9VIP stay exclusive to those that bought them when they were and never are available any other way, I see this as a compromise between what is 'fair' to T9VIPs and what is 'fair' to other VIPs who are not yet T9VIPs. Not everyone has the $$$ to afford to take the quick path to T9VIP or want to commit to a game long enough to earn them though time's passage -- especially when they fear the item they desire may go away before they get there.
Too Many Characters... not enough player
Member of Alts-R-Us.
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What about those who have "earned" it through shoveling a bunch of money at it? No dedication required, just cash. Did you forget that?|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
No.
Tier 9 is for those of us who have played the game for a dedicated amount of time. Who have earned it through dedication. No Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I must has nao. Sorry to see your 2010 reg date, but you must wait. |
"Oh, wait...."
The only restriction I'd put in is that you have to have some of the lower tiers filled in - enough to get things like SGs and more ability to interact with the community. That, to me at least, is a fairly important part of the game to unlock. I'd say "Finish Tier 4" is a good cutoff point.
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Then we earned it with cash... |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
What about those who have "earned" it through shoveling a bunch of money at it? No dedication required, just cash. Did you forget that?
"Oh, wait...." |
Feel free to do the same.
Oh, as an addendum to my own alternate proposal:
Gate the SPECIAL Tier to only being able to spend 1 Reward Token on the SPECIAL tier per tier you have completed. So completing T1 unlocks S1. Completing T2 unlocks S2.
So, At T1 you can only spend on the T1 slot.
At T2 you could spend on T2 slot 1, or S1
At T3 you could spend on any of the T3 slots or S1 and S2.
...
Too Many Characters... not enough player
Member of Alts-R-Us.
Dark Energon pulls the ever popular "Argumentum ad populum"
Lets go to the Slow Mo Replay to get a ruling on this Johnny.
That's Right folks 4 out of the 9 posters are against this, not just the "few" or "2" that Dark Energon claimed. Combined with Dark Energons very opening declaration "some people understood my view, some didn't, and some were against this." that suggests a majority did not even agree on the Global Chat and I think its pretty clear.
Game Over