Suggestion: Revamp T9VIP

And as I said, you have no real argument beyond an overweening sense of entitlement.

You're not getting what you want, sorry.

I'm not debating you, just pointing out that under this new reward system players have the option to get access to, (how did you describe it?) "the three awesome VIP costume sets" for far less money than it would cost under the old Vet Reward system, and no waiting period other than the time it takes the devs to add a new set to the game, or rotate back up.

As it stands today you (as well as every other player) have the choice of exercising the ability to unlock everything the most senior vet has unlocked, and it would only take you 15-30 minutes as opposed to the 87 months it took those vets to unlock them.

You and others are choosing not to do that. For whatever personal reasons you and they have, which I'm not disparaging (because I've made similar decisions myself), you've made the decision that other things are more important than unlocking those rewards immediately.

This is merely another example of deciding between instant gratification and patience. (tho I don't doubt that there are some people out there motivated by entitlement issues)

(Oh and I do agree with you about that clusterpancake that happened to getting the reward tokens up front with multi-month subs)

It's only contrary to their own best interests if they stop development of new VIP tier 9 costumery. In fact, if they do continue development (which it certainly seems they will), then they must at some point release some of the older items to the open market or there will simply be too much for any one player to afford unless that player has been around since launch or has effectively unlimited financial resources to play a game, and I doubt Paragon Studios wishes to alienate that much of their player base.

Oh, no. I don't want them. I have them. I want other people to have them, provided they've invested in the game as much as I have, or are willing to wait until I've danced around in my exclusive costume pieces for a year or so and have tired of them and picked up whatever new costume pieces are available to me.

I applaud you, sir.

I see no entitlement in your posts, just rational discussion of the issues.
Would that the OP shared your approach to this topic.

I suspect this aspect of vet rewards contributed to their decision to make costumes one of the VIP carrots. The screaming, wailing and gnashing of teeth over the vet gated costume parts was tremendous...and let's be honest, they weren't really anything to write home about.

But that uproar, combined with the hysteria around costume drops when they were first released and were actually rare, desirable items, gave them some inkling of how highly this playerbase values costume sets.

Prior to the introduction of the Paragon Market what drove the sale of boosters? Hint: not 'Shadowy Presence'. =P


I don't buy this argument, which I've battled ad nauseum on the Market forums over the years.

If an option is available, and you desire it, then earn it.
If that spoils your fun.....then what are you doing playing an MMO, a genre where desire and accquisition are the engines that keep the whole enterprise moving?

And unlike the old Vet system (which required a potentially huge time investment, depending on what you wanted) or the in-game market (which requires earing in-game currency), the Paragon Market provides instant gratification.

There are an infinity of things they could have used to incentivize the VIP system- they chose costumes.

Given that decision (based, one imagines, not on whimsy but hard data regarding player desires and behaviors), how would following the OP's suggestion benefit their bottom line right now?

Well, it wouldn't.

We can suppose a wide variety of other systems to replace the one currently in place, but the history of the game exposes those fantasies for the daydreams they are.

Maybe in another five years, if it's still around, we'll get another big system overhaul. In the short term? They got the system they wanted, and we need to accept it on its own terms.

I've been subscribed far longer than you and don't like that all the junk I 'earned' the hard way under the original system was suddenly made available to any n00b off the street- but oh well, that's life!

The devs decided it was better for the bottom line (and thus the survival of the game) to monetize them in a different way, and inasmuch as the continued survival of the game is important to me I have to let go of my personal preferences and get on board.

Ain't that the truth.

I've already explained the logic of having a back catalog to draw on- remember the Disney archives?

Like those archives, large scale changes to the MMO landscape may well inspire a wider release of VIP sets in the future, as massive changes inspired the current F2P revolution...but for now keeping them exclusive while adding more exclusive items to the catalog is just smart business.

Maybe a better metaphor, given that we're talking costume parts, is the fashion industry.

The stuff they just give away is the Prêt-à-porter, or 'ready to wear' stuff that is mass produced for department stores. The intent is mostly functional, wide distribution assures availability to anyone interested.

The VIP stuff is equivalent to Haute Coture, special items intended to promote a line, entrance high rollers and become collectible. There's no point in the fashion houses making them less expensive or more widely available- that's not their function in the system.

Likewise, it isn't the function of VIP costume sets to be casually, widely available.

Yes, Forbin, we can spend hundreds of dollars to unlock access to those tiers. In your post, you're comparing money spent for subscription (the only access to the game during those times) to money directly for points to spend in the store and/or simply just to reach Tier 9. That money spent in the past was for far more than just points/tiers.
So, that comparison really doesn't hold up as you displayed it.

All I said is that this new system places multiple significantly large, shiny costume sets beyond the three mark.
Yes, you can throw money at that time and make it go away. Excuse me if I balk at adding hundreds of dollars to my budget for this game that I've been paying for for over four years. Of course this is a personal choice.
So, your point is that the new system doesn't put costumes past the three year mark, because you can skip the time via more money.

Okay, I retract everything I said as clearly I wasn't considering the wonderful aspect that this new system allows people with a larger amount of money and a bigger willingness to spend it to skip ahead.
I'm not exactly a fan of that, to be honest, hehe. I get the validity of it. Yay, support the company and be rewarded.
It's just another example of this simple, casual cafe becoming a fancy club. The gap between the haves and have nots grows. That'll foster a great sense of community as we go.

And, again, is four plus years really so insignificant to not be able to access these new sets without having to plunk down over a hundred additional bucks? Again, that problem is really with the conversion from previous vet time to the new tokens.

Still... a new player, who doesn't spend an inordinate amount of money to get higher more quickly, will wait over three years to access extremely shiny costume sets.
Are we really going to compare the boxing gloves, shorts, boots and belt, or the sleek tech chest, gloves, legs and boots or the Arachnos helmets to the VIP sets?
The samurai armor is the only one that might compare somewhat well. And that was what... a little over a year?

I didn't condemn this new system. Without the Tier 9 sets, I thought this system was much better. However, I think that the Tier 9 sets are making this system err in many the same way that the old system did.
My reply to Nethergoat was simply to say that the complaints some had about the old system have not exactly gone away.
Whether or not the company feels that this is a problem is another story. I disliked the gating within the old system and I dislike it now. No big deal, but that's what I think.


Thank you, good sir.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Haha, I don't doubt that at all.
It is funny to ponder... how often does the gnashing and hysteria possibly benefit the opposite of what the gnashers (any and all of us included) desire!?
Still, from a more optimistic slant, the team certainly delivered on offering very impressive rewards to the longtime and/or loyal (and/or rich [and/or careless, haha... as we don't know everyone's bad credit situation after this]) customers.
I hope my posts don't seem like I am vehemently against and/or out-rightly negative about all of this. It's all good... even if it isn't, hehe.


I understand what you are saying here, but -let's face it - there is a huge aspect of personal preference in regard to this subject. Especially so, in what I was specifically talking about.
As an example, some players really only enjoy playing one character in this game. They may have alts, but the reason they fall in love with this game is because it quite remarkably allowed them to make a character idea come to life via the great options available.
For every significant option that is cut off from initial access, we possibly lose someone else making that magical connection with the game.

Obviously I have a different philosophy about that than those that make the decisions, as they've always gated costumes, but I don't think either paths are invalid, they're just simply different.

So, I hope the above somewhat explains how I don't exactly equate that to instant gratification. There are just different tastes for what is or isn't, should or shouldn't, things to start with or things to earn. I don't disagree with frustration at people who don't want to earn things. I just sometimes question and/or disagree with what should be earned and what should be granted.


Yeah, we really don't have enough information to know what would or wouldn't create a better bottom line.
Pondering about it, do the VIP costumes really create a better bottom line than if they sold them in the store to anyone and everyone? I really am not convinced. So, in that sense... it appears that it really is a great reward of appreciation from the company.
Would they earn more money by keeping them locked in there and gaining the large sums of money from people plopping down hundreds of dollars vs. the direct sales they'd get for selling the sets at 400 or so points?
After running the numbers in my head, I'd suspect that they'd make more money from selling them directly. This I could be wrong about. Maybe the sales are not as big as I imagine and maybe there are far more people willing to spend that money.
It'd take a lot of people plunking down that money to match the sale of a popular set though...
So, again, looking at it... conspiracy theorists, throw away your foil and look at the company as handing out great gifts at the Tier 9 spot.
I could be wrong, but it seems more likely than not.

Are those rewards great carrots for staying subscribed? I'm honestly not sure (he says this sincerely, opposed to that "not sure" that means "I don't think so").

What I think, when I consider this is... While that is cool, I'd rather see those things for sale with immediate availability (on a broader financial scale) so that they can 1) make more money and 2) help provide a happier community overall.
Again, I could be wrong about any or all of the above. I really don't have the information to truly know.

Hehe, get over yerself, ya Goat!
Nah, I hear ya. I just don't like sitting here, after all this time (and having finally surpasses that last costume hurdle of the Arachnos Helmets in the old system) to now be waiting about two years before I can start getting the new awesome costume goods that others get to enjoy.
While I certainly understand what 7-8 years means in comparison to 4 years... I think anything over 2 years loyalty to an mmorpg is all we should really judge by.
Once someone reaches that 3 year mark, to me, they've obviously fallen in love with the product, become a huge part of it and proven their loyalty.
Creating differences beyond that point starts to become more like holding it against someone for being born after the close of the 1900s.

Two years in one game is a long time. After that... we're all really just completely insane and deserve the same padded cells and coloring books.


This, honestly, is not an aspect I like or agree with.


Okay, I've already replied in this thread way more than I intended... Thanks for the good stuff!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I suspect this is at the core of most of these sorts of debates- a philosophical opposition to tiered access, period.

But again, that's the nature of the beast- it's just how MMO's work.


This whole thread is reminding me of right before they added the in-game market and some folk were really up in arms about how it was going to 'ruin' what made CoH special and they should find some other more creative systemic timesink.

Sure they could have tried some bold new system, but the went with a crafting/game economy model because it was proven and it works.

Same here- they could have found some wonderful creative new type of carrot to dangle in our faces, but they went with the simple option they knew would work.

Actually it does, you just refuse to acknowledge it because it refutes your argument. It also shows how much less newer players have to spend than the long term vets had to spend.

Compared to the old system where you had no option but to spend hundreds of dollars on the game because everything was gated behind what we now call VIP status, and no option but to wait years to get access to the rewards desired.

Throwing money up front at the time is exactly what people had been suggesting the devs let them do for years because they didn't want to wait 87 months to get the newest vet rewards.

Yes. If the devs choose to reward subscriber loyalty then the guy that spent $1,305 bucks in subscription fees should get significantly more in rewards than the 4 year vet that only spent $720 bucks, and the 4 year vet should get more than the 1 year vet who only spent $180 bucks. That's a no brainer.

Yes, cuz whether or not a person likes the Tier 9 costumes is a matter of opinion. They aren't any better or worse than the other costume rewards.

Yep. No matter what the company does they can never make everyone happy. There will always be people dissatisfied with the way things work.

Opinion and taste is not the basis I was making the distinction... Just the number of parts alone, Forbin, show your mistake.
I'm not saying this to complain, I am just pointing it out: besides the chests, legs, gloves, boots, belts, chest pieces, helmets, details, auras, glowie and non glow options, capes, wings, waterfall friggin' cape, weapon models for most weapon categories...

EDIT: Oh, right... where was I... Glowie Beam Swords! Jetpacks! Locked Tech-Wings!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

I mean, seriously. I could punch a hole in every ******* thing you say in here, but what is the ******* point?
People try and have a conversation and then you get replies that are just tossing out incorrect and ill-conceived counters that we can then reply to, point for point and be dragged into having to explain blatantly simple truths all for what? No ******* reason.
And that is exactly where such "debates" lead to... no reason.

You say things and it is clearly proven untrue, but you stick to them. You list the costs of the previous unlocks... Yet, it is a simple truth that they did not cost those amounts... they were unlocked along the way of being subscribed, with which you received a plethora of other benefits, far beyond that subscription total.
Yet, you wave these numbers like some grand flag to show the petty complainers that they are asking for handouts. It's tired, it's pathetic and I'm seriously sick of trying to be a ******* polite person on these forums, mate.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Sorry that in your view i have not been nice to you, but that is what you get when you just ignore and only look at the parts you want, and then try and counter with silly things.
And that is why my initial suggestion stands. All the things you have unlocked, will not be available to the new players, unless they throw a lot of cash at the game. Every time a VIP skips progrssing in their Reward Tree progress to pick a T-VIP reward, they will still not unlock the things you see as 'junk'. And it seems that you are more upset with the fact that people can now throw cash at the game and get where you got while you had to wait several years. You talk about me feeling entitled? YOU are the one who feels this way.
No it isn't, but it should be available to all VIPs.

So you got where i am with him too.
We are having a discussion over a suggestion i made, and he feels as if i am attacking him personal because he is one of the people described in the very 1st reply to this.

1200PP for non VIPs sounds a little high, but not unreasonable, but it should be made free for VIPs if it is made available for purchase in the Paragon Market, depending on how long it will take from removal from T9VIP to available in the Paragon Market. If it is instant, it should cost about half the cost of Premium/Free players.

Attempting to impugn the person opposing you and sacrifice of civility, a typical response that gets seen all too often on forums when one side can't refute the other sides argument.

And I'm still waiting for a valid argument justifying your belief that they should serve you tier 9 VIP treats on a silver platter.

Yes, well, that is the whole point of the system.

Working As Intended, in other words.


Please stop projecting, it's embarrassing.

Yes, I was irritated they'd given new players immediate access to all the junk it took me years of continuous subscription to achieve, and at a substantial $$ discount no less. But you ignore the following point, where I say ce'st la vie, it's a brave new world and if the devs think it's better in the long run I'll get on board.

Rather than whinging on endlessly over a done deal, as you've been.

Read the OP and comments instead of wasting your time coming up with nothing to add to this discussion. It has been stated a few times.
Seems like you could use your own advice, i started this thread to open up a discussion, see how people like my idea. The fact that you yourself have now openly said that you were irritated about this new system because others didn't have to wait as long as you have, means you'll only fight for you, instead of seeing it both ways.
No system is perfect, because they never will please everyone, but that doesn't mean we can not discuss things. I have seen a few nice other suggestions come out of this.
And instead of demanding my reasoning, which has been stated a few times, be honest why you don't like my suggestion, because all you have done is speculate, twist words, taken statements out of context by being selective in what you quote, wasting other people's time with meaningless replies and added nothing, and absolutely nothing to this discussion.

So, if you would like to PL your post count like several other people do on this forum, i must ask you to please do that in a different thread.
Thank you.

What are you on about?

I'm all for stuff that makes the game survivable over the long haul, whether or not it mollifies my personal inclinations.

People spending money makes the game survivable, the Paragon Market does that more efficiently than the old vet rewards system, so I'm on board. Viva capitalism!

Which is why I like access to tier 9 VIP junk being expensive, and staying expensive. It was conceived and executed as a premium enticement/reward for those's who've already dropped a bundle on the game in one way or another- exclusivity is the point of the exercise.

Uh, yeah, whatever.
But honestly, what is your reasoning?

You seem to feel you've expressed something somewhere around here, but for the life of me all I can find is a standard entitlement whine.

Just a few of the times i mentioned my reasons.
And if this is your view of an entitlement whine, then that is your issue, nobody is forcing you to look at this thread.
You stated you don't like my suggestion, and that is fine, nobody can like everyone's opinion all the time, but you do not have to shoot everyone who does understand or likes what you do not like or do not understand.
And i even respect your view about your entitlement issues because you have been here so long and do not want anyone to have what you have.

Eventually, odds are the older Tier 9 VIP costume set will start showing up in the store, simply because if they don't, the rotation for VIP sets will become unworkably large. Then they'll be able to make money on direct sales.


Being. Able. To. Cherry. Pick. Rewards. Defeats. The. Entire. Purpose. Of. Having. A. Reward. Tree.

However many time you repeat yourself, that isn't going to become any less true. Nor is it going to become any less true that the devs recently had the chance to completely revamp the loyalty system, and chose to stick with a reward tree. That's where your suggestion falls down -- it undermines the system the devs have just implemented.

So, you agree with me that, like the rereleases from the Disney archives, when the rerelase the VIP reward items, they should be released to the general public of the game, and not be held in reserve for VIP only access?

I don't follow the fashion industry, but I see your point. A more geeky comparison would be to special release cards in collector card sets, such as rare foil cards. They aren't intended for everyone, but those who really want them will always buy box after box of common card to get them.

I honestly don't see either of these as a fair comparison, as in these examples, the "VIP" items in question are meant to be owned and displayed but not used. The VIP costume pieces are meant to be used, worn by a character during play. To use your fashion analogy, the common costume pieces available to everyone are like Wrangler jeans, and the VIP stuff is more like Abercrombie & Fitch. The only difference is that for a short time, the high end stuff is only available to those who've dumped enough money into the game (either all at once, or over a significant period of time). Once new stuff is out, the old VIP fashion is "out of style" and dumped into an outlet store to be sold at a discount to the general public.

No, they should remain exclusive so that the periodic releases inspire people to spend more $$$.

Look at it this way- the more sets they build up 'behind the wall' the greater the desire of the playerbase to access them, the greater the incentive to pony up for Tier 9 in one way or another.

Not quite analogous, but the end result is the same- more consumer spending to get teh shiney. Continuing in that line, selling the rare cards ala carte would erode profits.


Huh- so what 'use' do you put your costumes to?
Do they enhance your powers? Enable you to withstand more damage? Open up missions unavailable otherwise?
What about the extra costume slots that lie fallow, also stuffed full of carefully constructed outfits?

Costumes are absolutely something to "own and display", exactly like an expensive, exclusive dress or a rare trading card. They're a collectible rarity, the ownership of which makes a certain statement to others in the community.


Not really, as both can be picked up nearly anywhere.
A more apt comparison would be Wranglers to a couture house like Alexander McQueen.


This is where the fashion metaphor breaks down, as costume bits *never* go out of style. Even the worst low rez 'available at launch!' bits have their rabid adherents.

How about we look at the nearest development analog to the tier 9 VIP stuff- super boosters. Not exactly the same, as they're available to anyone who cared to pony up, but near enough.

The first release was, I believe, the Wedding Pack- it's been out for an internet eternity. If the devs were believers in 'exclusivity decay' the wedding pack would be our leading indicator. It must be in the Paragon Market, which I can't access at the moment.

But the pack retailed for 9.99.
I'll add up the cost of the component bits when I get home and see what it's selling for today.
I'm guessing I'll find a price point right around ten bucks.

Well!

Grouchy nailed it- not much else needs to be said.

Although I'm still going to add up the cost of the Wedding Pack components to satisfy my own curiosity.

Attacking a persons post count, another classic gem that gets trotted out by some people when they perceive themselves to be on the losing side of a discussion. What's next, conspiracy rants about the big bad Forum Cartel?