Give Scrappers a real inherent power

To elaborate on this now that I'm more alert:

If you asked me how the various "pure" damage-dealing ATs should rank in ST and AoE damage, I'd come up with something like this. (I'm not going to try and place Corruptors or Dominators here; I'm not honestly sure where they should go and Corruptor Scourge is hard to eyeball like this.)

ST: Blaster ~= Stalker > Scrapper > Brute > Tanker
AoE: Blaster > Scrapper ~= Brute > Stalker ~= Tanker

That's an interesting collection of "facts."

You can try to prove otherwise but I am telling you now that Blasters can't beat Scrappers in raw DPS.

Be.
My.
Guest.

Whether they do or not, you said they *should*. And furthermore, that they should actually run out of endurance trying to keep up with Scrappers.

If you want to "prove" that the average Scrapper outdamages the average Blaster, by all means please do. If possible, please also objectively prove by how much. That's not really an easy thing to prove absolutely, but if you can I'm all ears. Such a proof would be extremely useful.

You didn't take into context what you quoted.

Repp said Stalkers were suppose to be the Single Target kings *in the first place*, i.e. since their inception. It was stated that 'Stalkers needed a buff' and so the only logical one was giving them such a title which ran counter to (the replier *believed*) my perceived playstyle.

I don't believe there is any documentation of a dev stating before Synapes' post, that Stalkers were suppose to be 'single target damage kings'. It was an entitled belief of forum goers that was then adopted by the devs. So it's not so much going with the redname as it is just nodding to majority rule.

I have no problem with it, but I find it rather funny that, right after agreeing with the majority on what Stalkers 'should be' you post this:

"And yes, there are too many mild variations on the "melee AT" role..."

Unfortunately, that is exactly what the majority wants. They want mild variants of everything (well, of Scrappers). If you *didn't* want mild variants of the 'melee AT' or feel they're too similar, why in blue blazes would you morph Stalkers into Scrappers when you could have possibly overturned the dev's decision and had another angle of the AT buffed? Heck, you might have squeezed a melee debuffer out of Stalkers if you made a decent case...

I am a bit bemused because this is "2006" possibly before that stuff. I can't even dig up Statemans statements in 2005 or 2006. I think it was Statesman stated it, people scoffed at it, as they did with anything he said, particularly about Tanker. I put it all on excel, and supported Statesmans statement. Some people tried to compare attack chains and then gave up when they soon realised. My patience is a little bit thin when it comes to all these "hashed out before" stuff.

I am currently busy with what little free time I have testing Warshades and Peacebringers atm.

Anyone is welcome to prove that in theory they can do more total damage to the end bar versus a theoretical 16 rikti dummies with the average blasters than they could with the average scrapper. I dare say with the arrival of Mental Manipulation that things have moved on in Blasters favour but likewise Scrappers have had new sets too.

Ingame in teams Blasters get buffed, they can be superb but that isn't raw dps. The Blaster has the advantage of AoE size so ingame in teams in particular Blasters can more likely hurt more targets. All things need to be considered though. What's better to go through a solo farm with? Which would be quicker a SO'd Scrapper or SO'd Blaster? Scrapper, it will lead in raw dps, it will lead by survivability, and produce more aoes to the end bar slotted right. It's not even worth putting it on excel.

I said Raw DPS which should never be mixed up with DPS.

Now I'm bemused.

You're missing the point. Yes, Scrappers DO outdamage Blasters, that is the problem. They should not, Blasters are currently supposed to be the Damage Kings and they aren't even close. Note that this is even before you take into account all the time they spend dead.

Now, in the other thread about Blasters Arcana made a very nice case about how 'Damage King' Should be replaced with 'Offensive King', and make Blasters useful again.

Scrappers should in no way lead over Blasters in raw DPS. At least, not in the current form of Blasters. Blasters give up everything (Mental aside, it is a special case) for damage, and aren't even top. Scrappers have more damage -and- more survivability.

You're giving me far too much credit for how much input I have on the situation if you're saying "why [...] would you morph Stalkers into Scrappers when you could have possibly overturned the dev's decision [...]".

I don't recall signing the dev's paychecks. I'm not overturning anything. I can do the same as the other players here by posting and sending private messages with my concerns and try to indicate a reasonable argument for why I feel that way, and in the case of the i22 Stalker changes there were several PMs back and forth that amounted to little to no change that I'm aware of*.

When I got into i22 beta, I simply confirmed that it was working how I expected by running around on a copied level 50 and started playing other sets or finding other ways to spend my time: feedback can help sometimes but when they've already been testing it for months what they're going to do is usually locked in and your feedback might result in small tweaks instead of sweeping changes (such as "melee debuffer").

Issue 22 Stalkers can have an entirely different feel when in the middle of a mission, but the changes also didn't take away the old feel of the AT. That's one of the reasons I just let things go, because nothing was really taken away - but using Placate and waiting for hidden status before engaging was just made so far out of optimal performance that it may as well have for anyone who cared about the inter-AT balance enough to complain about it in the first place. But you can still play your post-i22 Stalker identically to how you played your i21 Stalker, never using Assassin's Strike outside of hidden status if you don't want to, with identical or slightly better performance (depending on secondary and/or hp set bonuses due to the higher hp cap).





* - I'm unsure if Assassin's Focus was always a "chance" or if that came afterwards - the original description could be read as it always happened. That may have resulted from one of my concerns.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Just quoting to point out that you're doing exactly what I said you're doing. Not discussing it with you, just relishing in the fact you're exactly what I said.

Can't stop, won't stop~!

---

Why does this thread exist, again? Scrappers are fine.

An endurance buff. Give them Superior conditioning as part of their inherent. Have it grant +5 end total every 10 levels. So that at lvl 50 scrappers have 125 base endurance. That is what I would do.

They are fine. What they lack is anything that in uniquely theirs. That is what EG states, and what I have been trying to get across also. Scrappers don't even have a power set that they don't share with the other melee ATs.

He also points out in another thread that all but 3 of the stalker primaries have AoEs or Cone attacks.

Everyone keeps saying it is no big deal that stalkers and scrappers share crits. How would all you pro stalker folks feel about scrappers getting Energy Melee and Ninjitsu?

Out of spite as Jerry Seinfield once said.

I love how you say that like if we'd just understand what you're getting at, we'd agree that this is indeed a problem.

What you're not getting is that to a certain subset of other players, undefinable but probably not significantly smaller or larger than your own subset, do not want something unique, except in that the AT has nothing unique. That is just as valid a preference as your own, with just as much justification backing it, ie none. Unique qua unique is not automatically desirable.

Yes, except many, many people play them purely due to them NOT having something unique. Hell, you could say they are unique for being normal. They have no fluff. They are what they are, nothing more and nothing less. They Scrap, and they are good at it.

Also, I wouldn't care. I would probably make a new Scrapper with staff/nin.
Prolly not gonna happen, Ninjitsu revolves quite a bit around Stalkers.

Pretty sure the Stalkers wouldn't care. But then they'd want Titan Weapons and Shield Defense.

... And considering Scrappers benefit more from Shield Defense than any of the other ATs, that's a pretty good perk.

IN FACT, you know what's unique about Scrappers? Their melee damage scale. HAH. Can't argue that!

I was under the impression that all sets would be ported eventually.

Im still not getting this whole "give scrappers something unique" thing. Brutes are unique, but you would rather play a scrapper. Stalkers are unique, but you would rather play a scrapper. Every AT has something unique, but you would rather play a scrapper. Scrappers must already be something unique, or you wouldn't love them so much.

Been here since 2007 and this is the first I am hearing of this. I have never heard anything other than Khelds being a jack of all trades. That was from players mind you NEVER heard a dev even use that phrase referring to any of their AT's.

Sounds dubious at best.

This is a very very fair statement. The reason I like scrappers so much is because they fit what I feel my favorite comic book characters are.

Boss, I don't want some crazy mechanic. Shoot, the only idea I have had that I really like is giving them a higher end total.

What I get is that people like them how they are because they are simple. I don't want that to change either.

As for power proliferation, it kind of a wait and see thing. :/

I don't know, but I don't recall that happening either four years ago (which would have been around Issue 12) or when Defenders first got Vigilance (six years ago during issue 5) or when Defenders got Vigilance improved (two years ago, during Issue 17).

The reward thing might have been an off-hand comment from very long ago, but I do not recall that ever being proposed as a serious possibility. I also do not recall any dev explicitly describing Scrappers as Jacks of all Trades archetypes, except possibly prior to Issue 1. Back before pervasive criticals were added, Scrappers were described as being "generalists" that were good at soloing because they had good defense and good offense. They obviously were not jack of all trades, because they had limited control and no ally buffing. Controllers were often described as Jack of all Trades archetypes: they had offense, damage mitigation, and ally support powers.

"Jack of all trades, master of none,
Certainly better than a master of one"

One of my Scrappers has Confront, Manuevers, Assault, Tactics and Vengeance and a solid attack chain.

Another of my Scrappers has Confront, Grant Cover.

Power pools have always been there. Confront has always been there. The rules that players must follow have never been there.