Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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To be honest, regeneration percentages confuse the utter hell out of me, so I prefer to rely on the final hp/sec output. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Yes. Base RTTC is 100% for the first foe and 25% for each additional. For an unslotted total with ten enemies of 325%. Please note, I could not remember off hand whether the first enemy gives 100% + the 25% scaling bonus.
325*1.95=633.75 |
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| Now, RTTC has a decent to-hit debuff, but it's beyond my math skills to determine a model to account for that. Or for Recon's toxic resists. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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I have to agree with everything else you've posted, though I myself have never made an argument dismissing Hide and Placate. I've argued about where they fit in but I've never outright dismissed them.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Placate always replaces Confront. Which is a clear winner in the Stalker's favor. Only one cone (Repulsing Torrent) is sacrificed to AS. And that was Castle's way of making the Stalker set equal in AoE to the others by making a cone that no one would want. Newer sets don't lose any AoE, which over time will create a situation where Stalkers are as good or better than Scrappers in AoE, better in single-target, and equivalent in survivability. |
Now as to the bit I've quoted
Yes Placate always replaces Confront, however the AS replacement isn't as clear cut as it used to be. Also any self buff is always replaced with Build Up (though Staff is going to be an exception to this)
Lets take a look at ElM the first Stalker set that lost no AoE damage powers. Confront/Taunt was replaced with Placate. Thunderclap after a considerable effort on the part of Stalker players ended up being replaced.
So here we traded an AoE control power for a ST Damage Attack
Now I'm not sure how good Thunderclap as a control is, but it can nake difference in the amount of incoming damge. I think it's a mag 2 stun so that will get minions and Lt's so a Scrapper is free to deal with Bosses or high threat non bosses as easily as a Stalker would opening from Hidden. What's more the good AoE damage Scrappers can deal has a decent chance of eliminating the minions that have been stunned.
So the performance is probably comparable.
Honestly though thinking about things a bit more I think it may be apropriate to remove the team based crit chance on Stalkers. From what I remember that change was put in because Stalkers could not realistically make use of Hidden attacks in team situations so the team crit was added as a way to bypass the issues that interfered with crits.
Now that we have Focus I don't think the team crit is necessary anymore
since Stalkers can undeniably deal out the ST damage they were always meant to.
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I think these two statements are the heart of this thread, and these discussions in general.
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
All I can say is this thread proves one thing above all others. Scrappers are probably the most loved/loathed AT in the game.
*Snip for space* Indeed this thread does make me feel good, for it shows scrappers love to scrap on any front. |
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I LOVE this, but it does add a measure of complexity that others have been clear that they do NOT want added to scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
So...anyways...looking from this from another angle, how about a "Second Inherent" for Scrappers, since Doms have two primaries and all that.
Anyways... BRAVADO: "Scrappers LOVE to fight, and not just in small doses. They love it all, from single foes to massive bar brawls. Fighting will fill your Bravado's power bar. When the bar fills, the Scrapper expends his energy into an insane burst of violent fury. Additionally, each of the Scrapper's teammates gains a small bonus to damage, since a good fight always invites a crowd!" Numbers: Basically, it's a Dom bar that fills for Scrappers like Fury would for Brutes or Domination does for Dominators. Once you click it, you would get one of: Guaranteed crits for next X seconds? HUGE damage buff to self (+75% damage?) and a smaller buff to teammaes (+12.5%)? A "Terrorize" cone effect? Not really in flavour for the idea though. Benefits: Wouldn't require Devs to sort through each attack set's damage mods. Fire and forget nature, doesn't need tweaking or balancing for IOs or anything. Would help against large targets and just allow overwhelming of weaker foes. Weaknesses: Need to re-code a powerbar for an older AT. MOAR DAMAGE might not be the solution here. A team buff might be too much. |
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Thunderclap is an example of that most pernicious and despicable form of control...PBAoE knockback...*shiver* |
Originally Posted by DMystic
Lets take a look at ElM the first Stalker set that lost no AoE damage powers. Confront/Taunt was replaced with Placate. Thunderclap after a considerable effort on the part of Stalker players ended up being replaced.
So here we traded an AoE control power for a ST Damage Attack Now I'm not sure how good Thunderclap as a control is, but it can nake difference in the amount of incoming damge. I think it's a mag 2 stun so that will get minions and Lt's so a Scrapper is free to deal with Bosses or high threat non bosses as easily as a Stalker would opening from Hidden. What's more the good AoE damage Scrappers can deal has a decent chance of eliminating the minions that have been stunned. So the performance is probably comparable. |
Scrappers gain nothing from using that power. Scattering the NPCs to the winds instead of keeping them packed up for killing does more harm than good.Quote:
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Honestly though thinking about things a bit more I think it may be apropriate to remove the team based crit chance on Stalkers. From what I remember that change was put in because Stalkers could not realistically make use of Hidden attacks in team situations so the team crit was added as a way to bypass the issues that interfered with crits. Now that we have Focus I don't think the team crit is necessary anymore since Stalkers can undeniably deal out the ST damage they were always meant to. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The basic calculations I did for RTTC's regeneration both in beta and after go-live (it was changed slightly after go-live) ran like this:
Assume for simplicity sake that both RTTC and Reconstruction are both slotted +100% heal. It doesn't matter for comparison purposes. That means saturated RTTC generates +650% regen, while Reconstruction generates 50% heal every 60 seconds.
+650% regen is with 10 targets, and is equal to about 2.708%/sec health recovery. However, the *average* number of targets is likely to be lower, if for no other reason than you tend to kill them. Lets assume the *average* is closer to 5. In that case, RTTC generates +450% regen, which is 1.875%/sec.
Reconstruction starts at 50%/60s = 0.833%/sec. With recharge slotting, cycle time drops to about 32 seconds and that becomes about 1.562%/sec. With 3-slotted Hasten averaging about +42% recharge, cycle time drops to about 26 seconds and recon increases to about 1.922%/sec.
One catch, though, is that Willpower has +health powers which boost regen but not heals. On a stalker you can slot that to about +29.5% health, which would boost the effective regen rates relative to base health to about 3.51%/sec maximum, and 2.43%/sec average.
For reconstruction to equal the hypothetical average regen of a Stalker RTTC you'd need about 45ish global recharge on top of Hasten. Conversely, if the average targets within RTTC was about 3, meaning the stalker tended to be surrounded by at most 6 targets or so, slotted recon +hasten would also be about equal to the average performance of RTTC.
The question as to whether Recon is better than RTTC hinges mostly on whether stalkers tend to have more than six things within its eight foot radius or less. That's separate from the toxic reists in Recon vs the tohit debuff in RTTC.
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This may sound weird, but I would hate to see any nerf to stalkers. I like the way they play now. What I would rather see is something added to scrappers to make the lines less blurry between not only them and stalkers, but with brutes as well. |
Originally Posted by DMystic
Honestly though thinking about things a bit more I think it may be apropriate to remove the team based crit chance on Stalkers. From what I remember that change was put in because Stalkers could not realistically make use of Hidden attacks in team situations so the team crit was added as a way to bypass the issues that interfered with crits.
Now that we have Focus I don't think the team crit is necessary anymore since Stalkers can undeniably deal out the ST damage they were always meant to. |
For instance, I love the demoralize that AS has a chance to do. I could see something like that added to scrapper crits. I would like to see scrappers be immune to fear, because it is obvious scrapper players are immune to it.
I still maintain there are things that could be given to the scrapper that wouldn't do too much damage to scrapper balance.
Dang it, just as I think I am done with this thread, I get drawn back into it!
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I sort of suspected the numbers would be run before I could get home. Thank you Arcana. So more or less that too is a wash, since even saturated RttC isn't going to be vastly better than Recon. A WP Scrapper can better survive a huge mob, but the Stalker is more likely to whittle that mob down pretty fast. Beyond that, it basically depends on whether or not you like defensive click powers.
Well, go figure. I would have thought there'd be something in there that would make it less survivable. All the tradeoffs for the other defense sets aren't what I would consider make-or-break, especially once you factor in Hide.
Now, once you start piling on MaxHP bonuses like Accolades and set bonuses, I should think that RttC will wind up being better in more circumstances than a static heal, but of course that's not useful for a set-to-set comparison.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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nice try did you fail at defence versus resitance calculations?|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
That's accurate.
100% of damage is sent at you. The base to-hit is 50%, so with 0% defense, on average 50% of all the damage thrown at you will hit you. With 2.5% defense, on average 47.5% of all the damage thrown at you will hit you. Thus, of all the damage that actually hits you, there is a 5% reduction (as 5% of 50% = 2.5%). Are you also slotting RttC for Heal SOs in your calculation? You didn't say, so I can't be sure. I based my armchair analysis off a very quick look at my IOed-out WP Scrapper in Mids before leaving for work, comparing against Reconstruction with 100% Health enhancement. When I get home, I'll happily compare SOs to SOs. |
defence is all or nothing....your statistics are if the person is being hit 100 times
yes normally out of 100 attacks with only hide you might get hit 48 times if its another player like the example being used implies.
you are trying to imply resistance...a person with hide isnt going to take 47.5% of the damage they have a potential of not taking any damage with your base 50% chance to hit(thats a player only of the same level by the way) with -5% due to hide.
which means they have 55% chance your thing will miss normaly....in this case a player...since only players have a base 50% chance to hit. After all if enemies only had that.....most players wouldnt get ever.
Yah hide doesnt give resistance only some defence...and when hidden it gives like 25% to area of effect defence. also it still has a broken null value in hide.
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You need to go read up on what "expected value" means before you berate someone over it.|
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
nice try did you fail at defence versus resitance calculations?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
Basically, the average amount. If the attack has a 50% chance to deal 100 damage, it has an expected value per attack (not per hit) of 50 damage. As in, if you get attacked a hundred times, you would expect to take about 50x100 = 5000 damage total, although obviously this will vary for individual trials, by simple luck.
A 50% chance to not be hit means you avoid 50% of the damage you would otherwise take. This is 50% mitigation, on average, over time.
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This post is so cute I want to print it out and frame it on my wall.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
nice try did you fail at defence versus resitance calculations?
defence is all or nothing....your statistics are if the person is being hit 100 times yes normally out of 100 attacks with only hide you might get hit 48 times if its another player like the example being used implies. you are trying to imply resistance...a person with hide isnt going to take 47.5% of the damage they have a potential of not taking any damage with your base 50% chance to hit(thats a player only of the same level by the way) with -5% due to hide. which means they have 55% chance your thing will miss normaly....in this case a player...since only players have a base 50% chance to hit. After all if enemies only had that.....most players wouldnt get ever. Yah hide doesnt give resistance only some defence...and when hidden it gives like 25% to area of effect defence. also it still has a broken null value in hide. |
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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... ?
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
since only players have a base 50% chance to hit. After all if enemies only had that.....most players wouldnt get ever.
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That's because werner is bad at maths!
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
This post is so cute I want to print it out and frame it on my wall.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Pssst. Enemies have 50% base chance of hitting. Players have 75% base. It's one of the best kept secrets in the game, so keep it on the downlow, please. Wouldn't want the devs to buff the enemies hit chance to 64% in incarnate trials or anything.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
nice try did you fail at defence versus resitance calculations?
defence is all or nothing....your statistics are if the person is being hit 100 times yes normally out of 100 attacks with only hide you might get hit 48 times if its another player like the example being used implies. you are trying to imply resistance...a person with hide isnt going to take 47.5% of the damage they have a potential of not taking any damage with your base 50% chance to hit(thats a player only of the same level by the way) with -5% due to hide. which means they have 55% chance your thing will miss normaly....in this case a player...since only players have a base 50% chance to hit. After all if enemies only had that.....most players wouldnt get ever. Yah hide doesnt give resistance only some defence...and when hidden it gives like 25% to area of effect defence. also it still has a broken null value in hide. |
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
nice try did you fail at defence versus resitance calculations?
defence is all or nothing....your statistics are if the person is being hit 100 times yes normally out of 100 attacks with only hide you might get hit 48 times if its another player like the example being used implies. you are trying to imply resistance...a person with hide isnt going to take 47.5% of the damage they have a potential of not taking any damage with your base 50% chance to hit(thats a player only of the same level by the way) with -5% due to hide. which means they have 55% chance your thing will miss normaly....in this case a player...since only players have a base 50% chance to hit. After all if enemies only had that.....most players wouldnt get ever. Yah hide doesnt give resistance only some defence...and when hidden it gives like 25% to area of effect defence. also it still has a broken null value in hide. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Wow. What was... what? I'm not horribly knowledged in CoX but even I knew THAT. That... what?
What the... WHAT?
And for a single page, the thread united as one to stop and stare and say "What the hell was that?"
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Yeah, after if was pointed out on the expected damage I dropped that line of thought,and I'm the one that prompted the whole thing.
Reread what was said Kitty you're interpreting things wrong.
EDIT: And now for something completely different
In light of that... whatever it was, I present more Reppu. Pre kitsunetsuki, though.
Because it's about as relevant as THAT failure of game mechanics was.
So... Virtue, you say?
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Virtue Roleplayer, yep.
I'm there!
And did you ppl see the new ATOs? Rather ridiculous if you ask me...
New ATOs? I shall investigate.
Well the thread is here.
So who's better at critical damage? Meh, sure, it's only at lvl 47 and only after you buy a ridiculously priced enhancement but hey...
...What am I saying? This is stupid >_> and OP...
325*1.95=633.75
Now, RTTC has a decent to-hit debuff, but it's beyond my math skills to determine a model to account for that. Or for Recon's toxic resists.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.