Give Scrappers a real inherent power

Didn't I say specifically "Electric Melee, Kinetic Melee, or Street Justice" in my previous post? As an aside those are three of the most popular Stalker primaries. It's a case of 'cherry picking'.

I can argue right now a lot of Scrapper and Brute primaries have terrible AoE, and if you select one of those primaries you have terrible AoE and less ST than a Stalker.

See how this works? You're doing it in the opposite manner, I'm using your own logic as a defense.

If a Stalker goes Fire Mastery, their AoE is amazing due to automatic 100% Damage Criticals. If they are Electric Melee, Kinetic Melee, or Street Justice, their AoE is 'Great', 'Stupid' or 'Good Enough' respectively. Combine both, like you like to do with Scrapper/Brute secondaries, and yes. They WILL keep up.

Considering I've wiped out Minions/Killed or Wounded Lts/Wounded Bosses with Build Up + Burst + AS + Fireball chain crits due to Stalkerlololol, I'm pretty sure I can at least say KM has exceptionally absurd AoE Damage, 'for a stalker'. And in general, too.

Gotta love auto crits.

Let's see...argue with Another_Fan or be distracted by post #601...argue with Another_Fan or be distracted by post #601...

I'd think harder on it but I'm kind of distracted right now.

All I can say is this thread proves one thing above all others. Scrappers are probably the most loved/loathed AT in the game.

Im rather surprised by the endless debate though. No one really argues that scrappers dont NEED any actual upgrade. Yet some just demand that they get a new shiny for the sake of a shiny.

What I find most odd is the endless talking over ST and AOE style. I myself always started with the plan to make a character specialize in a style. My BS/Regen scrapper was happily focussed on single target and quick to put himself against the biggest baddy in sight asap. Really if I wanted to play an AOE killer Id just go play my blaster lol.

My Claw/WP scrapper actually feels abit like a blaster since he went arms mastery and uses his shurikens and ranged claw attacks in concert quite alot. He is definatly more aoe centric then my BS though.

My MA/Shield scrapper definatly is more of an aoe fighter, but mixed with some very impact feeling single target attacks. Which possess some decent soft control effects to add some extra flavor to the fighting style.

However its probably still my first and oldest toon, my last of the first years T'Keron Valmaz a Kat/SR who remains my favorite. Possessing an inherent global recharge far above the common man, his elude down time is almost the exact length of time phase shift shields him from all harm. His attacks recharge so fast any one I need is up when I need it. His extreme focus on single target combined with the handy pyro judgement to back his demon powers has let him start to reach the goal he has long had to regaining his lost status as lord of demons. Its how well the entire incarnate power system has benefitted him that tells me the Devs do play the same game we do and one must of had an SR toon they really wanted to see excel without the crutch of Dark Melee.

Indeed this thread does make me feel good, for it shows scrappers love to scrap on any front.

I've been bothered by the 134 HP thing too, and I do mean at the base. The reason is that defense and DR effectively act as long levers for multiplying what those HP help you survive.

If you have a Scrapper and Stalker at max HP with 50% DR, that means the Scrapper can survive 276 more points of incoming damage than the Stalker before falling over, and that's assuming no HP regen at all. Talking about 134 HP with defense sets gets a little more hairy, since discrete hits could cause damage slew to obscure the 134 HP difference, but looking at average mitigation, a Scrapper at the defense soft-cap (90% damage mitigation) is going to be able to deal with 1340 more points of incoming damage on average than a Stalker at the same level of defense.

Then there's Dull Pain for Regen, which will put the Scrapper at about 214 HP more than the Stalker, assuming no other HP buffs.

And of course I'm ignoring HP regen rates. The Scrapper's immortality DPS, all other things being equal, is going to be around 11% higher than that of an equivalent Stalker.

PRoblem is not necessarily Scrappers (or any Melee AT), but perhaps the high Smash/Lethal resistance of foes farther on in the game. Takes longer to kill stuff, so you either bring more reds or justcall on range ATs to do to the job for you since they offer controls etc.

Not sure you really want to "Fix" Scrappers, unless you turn them into some crazy Hybrid like Kheldians with their buff system:

1)If you are around Controllers/Dominators, they gain a small amount of status protection;
2)If you are around Defenders/Corruptors, their damage increases somewhat;
3)If you are around Brutes/Scrappers, increase to Fury generation/crit chances;
4)If you are around VEAT/Kheldians, Offer them a slight regen rate bonus;
5)If you are around Stalkers/Blasters, offer them a slight Defense bonus;
6)If you are around Tankers/Masterminds, boost their recharge rate or recovery somewhat.

And that's all pie in the sky...and probably a heck of a coding nightmare, not to mention that the other ATs will all be in a kerfuffle. Might just be better to go the other wasy and lower the damage caps of a few ATs to make sure Scrappers are the top of the top, but that seems undesireable and unfair to Blasters, for instance.

I would hazard a guess that what Another_Fan thinks he means is that Stalkers had already paid in the past and they only now were getting what they paid for. The recent buff balanced a previously unbalanced equation, as it were.

Still not what he actually wrote, of course. Stalkers didn't pay for anything during the recent change.

I remember a discussion with someone a long time back who came up with D/R/R* values for all the major powersets. (It was, somewhat ironically, part of a debate about whether or not Stalkers should have their MaxHP cap increased.) I recall that Ninjitsu had one of the highest values of all the sets at the time.

I presume that would remain true if it was ported to Scrappers and/or Brutes, though it would lose Hide's +defense along the way.

* Defense/Resistance/Regen is a synthetic value related to immortality line. It's your average HP recovery (both regen and heals) divided by your average damage admittance. It represents the maximum average damage/sec you can face without ever dying.