Give Scrappers a real inherent power

Stalkers should get some interest on their money if they paid for something back in I6 and getting delivery in I22.

Also, just exactly what prompts you to say that their reduced survivability "just happens" to fall at the balance point for that? That sounds like you actually believe you can state a) what the average survivability gap between scrappers and stalkers is (and its not proportional to the health difference) and b) there's a metric that balances survivability against AoE damage. Please enlighten us. Because I have no such metric, and I know for a fact the devs don't either. So that makes exactly one of us, and I'm sure you will be more than happy to educate us.

Or you're just making stuff up as usual.

You can softcap ninjutsu without hide relatively easily. If it gained extra debuff resistance from the change in values, it wouldn't need hides little extra bit of defense and whatever power was put in there (regular stealth ?) would just contribute more to the sets overall hardiness.

There is something you don't have a metric for ?

Damn those devs, they failed again!

Was it Catwhoorg?

It might have been. It was definitely someone who I think of as a regular face in old-school Scrapper discussions.

It was, indeed, Catwhoorg.

Really? That seems unusual, if you're measuring defense and resistance and regen. Ninjitsu only offers defense in steady quantities (with Kuji-In Sha providing some healing and toxic resist). Its survivability shoots up because of the number of soft controls it has, certainly, but I'd think in a D/R/R comparison it would come up short.

Also, although I'm at work so I don't have Mids to help me with the numbers, Stalker Willpower seems on the surface to suffer from lack of RttC. I imagine they were given Reconstruction because they don't have the HP to fully leverage +Regen, but Reconstruction doesn't scale like RttC does, and it suffers from being a click with a significant recharge which also cuts into offensive power.

I don't think the actual gap is all that large until you start mixing in set bonuses and accolades and such, but Scrapper Willpower can quickly outpace Stalker Willpower, allowing the Scrapper to survive large groups more easily than the Stalker.

Reppu, feel free to post artwork every time A_F posts. It'll help balance things out.

It's because it has a self-heal backing fairly significant +defense. That's not a combination we see in the other sets.

True enough, and I realized that after I posted it.

Right, I mentioned the soft controls Nin has, but that's not as easily quantifiable or comparable to other defense sets as D/R/R.

Nin has slow, sleep, and confuse available. Very interesting defense set, to be sure.

Making up stuff as usual it is.

Oh this from someone who proclaimed themselves an expert on game theory because they read a book on it, and has people using techniques 400 years before they were invented.

You still haven't put up how increasing blaster damage is a poor way to help them survive. Don't worry that one can wait, I am sure it takes some effort to skew the assumptions so the point is proved.

Catwhoorg was one of the proponents of the DDR survivability theory, aka layered defenses. It was a more rule of thumb based theory that echoed the calculated Def x Res x Regen theory that formed the basis of most mitigation calculations, particularly after my first I2/I3 scrapper comparison thingy.

It might have also been partially based on numbers that were circulating around the forums after I started posted my proliferation spreadsheet, which tried to show what ever mitigation powerset would look like if ported without modification to any of the four melee archetypes. Ninjitsu kept showing up as a really strong player in those calculations. Outside of tier 9 Ninjitsu was a strong def + heal player, and within tier 9s Elude + Reconstruction was a tough combination to beat.

Not only did Ninjitsu have the only Def+Heal combination for a long while, it was and as far as I know still is still the only combination that has strong positional defenses and high psionic and toxic resistances, which are the primary damage sources that can leak past positional defense.

Making up even more stuff as usual.

You never claimed to be an expert on game theory ?

You didn't state that Kepler data mined his laws of motion ?

I suppose for you it must be difficult to keep your fabrications straight.

I'm enjoying the topic, it's just that this particular argument of yours seems disingenuous.


Stalkers only have 3 sets with HP buffs, and I think due to the rarity of +HP that 134 difference actually becomes a bigger gap than it would seem.



Granted its not a chasm of difference, however it is significant enough to matter and shouldn't be ignored. Is the difference big enough? I honestly can't say as I'm not good with data.


I don't see where the 50 damage is suddenly becoming 47.5 as Hide is defense only and doesn't have an effect on damage that gets through.



No that power is only present in certain sets,and my statement was more about how Hide isn't the be all end all that you're making it appear to be.
However one thing all Scrappers have is a better self buff mod giving them a better return on any +Damage powers they get.


And that effect is no different than what you get from a stun,sleep,fear or hold. Due to how powers get moved around and changed to add AS and Placate to Stalker primaries from what I've seen usually a PBAoE,Cone or Control effect is removed from the equivalent Scrapper Primary.

You annoy yourself. If you wished to not be annoyed you simply had to ignore this post. Instead, you have contributed to the post. I thank you for contributing to the post. But you must know that you have only yourself to blame for how you're feeling.

Reconstruction is a benefit to Stalker Willpower.

Saturated to ten targets RTTC gives 633% Regen. That's heals a bit more than 1.5 of your max health in one minute. That's assuming you can keep ten targets around you for the whole minute.

Reconstruction with SOs returns 50% health every 30 seconds. And it benefits from additional recharge. Get it to 20 second recharge (which my Stalker and Scrapper does) and it heals just about as much as a fully saturated RTTC and you don't have to have keep any NPCs around you. And Recon can heal through burst damage. And Reconstruction provides toxic resists as well as its healing.

That has not been my experience at all.

Now you're having difficulty remembering what you said minutes ago. Have you considered the possibility you're currently experiencing a stroke?

That's accurate.

100% of damage is sent at you. The base to-hit is 50%, so with 0% defense, on average 50% of all the damage thrown at you will hit you. With 2.5% defense, on average 47.5% of all the damage thrown at you will hit you.

Thus, of all the damage that actually hits you, there is a 5% reduction (as 5% of 50% = 2.5%).

Are you also slotting RttC for Heal SOs in your calculation? You didn't say, so I can't be sure.
I based my armchair analysis off a very quick look at my IOed-out WP Scrapper in Mids before leaving for work, comparing against Reconstruction with 100% Health enhancement. When I get home, I'll happily compare SOs to SOs.

I find all the arguments dismissing Hide and Placate disingenuous. I'm just stating that I don't find the 134 Health difference to be nearly as meaningful as folks make it out to be.

For example. People bring up the regeneration boost provided by those 134 points. Well, let's consider a reasonable amount of regen buff. Say 400%. That's exactly 1 full HP bar per minute.

That means that over the course of a minute a Scrapper regens from 134-400 more health than a Stalker. Over a minute. That means at best, the health difference is worth a green respite of healing. Remember that's at the cap.

And it presumes that the Stalker has no other tools, LIKE HIDE AND PLACATE, to help.

That doesn't follow. If there are not many health buffs, then the base amount is a better predictor of an average surivivability gap, no?

Again, I've NEVER IGNORED IT. I've put it in perspective. I've just asked the other side not to ignore Hide and Placate. And almost without exception people have minimized the effect of those two powers on survivability.

I said expected damage, not damage. If you have a 50% chance of taking 100 damage, you may expect that over time, you will get hit half the time (50%) and missed half the time (50%). The average damage you will take is 50 damage.

If you have a 47.5% chance of taking 100 damage, you may expect that you will get hit 47.5% of the time and missed 52.5% of the time. Making your average damage 47.5 in that instance.

But see, I'm not making it the "end all, be all". I'm saying it needs to be considered. It is, in fact, you all who are stating that 134 Health is the end all, be all. Folks have stated in absolute terms that Stalkers are ALWAYS less survivable than Scrappers. You can find that statement multiple times in this thread. That statement is false. It's not sorta false, it's not arguably false. It's false. Hide and Placate are PART of the reason for that, but not the only one.

Agreed. However, for most Scrappers this is only Build Up and its 10 second window. If they were to port over Super Strength in all its broken glory then we would see a set where that was a powerful benefit. Right now, it works the best for Shield Scrappers and I will not deny that those Scrappers are among the most damaging characters in the game.


Placate always replaces Confront. Which is a clear winner in the Stalker's favor. Only one cone (Repulsing Torrent) is sacrificed to AS. And that was Castle's way of making the Stalker set equal in AoE to the others by making a cone that no one would want. Newer sets don't lose any AoE, which over time will create a situation where Stalkers are as good or better than Scrappers in AoE, better in single-target, and equivalent in survivability.