Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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You guys are about as right about the Stalker buffs as the guys asking for the Scrapper buffs now, which is what you guys continually demonstrate.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You were wrong then and everyone supporting "Scrapper Buffs" or "Changes" are wrong now.
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Hidden AS was never the best mechanic, I'm sorry. Yes, it was a powerful attack, and it actually still is. But, in the end, it was a poor mechanic. It didn't fit in the modern CoX playstyle, which is a heavy and fast damage method. Even Trials heavily reduced the effectiveness of AS due to all the AoE flying about, some of it being zone-bound so you could never dodge it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You guys are about as right about the Stalker buffs as the guys asking for the Scrapper buffs now, which is what you guys continually demonstrate.
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It was cool, but archaic. I do feel that Unhidden AS does hurt Hidden AS, but... that's not a big deal. Better to have an ability ALWAYS useful, then sometimes useful and barely useful in trials.
And, you're still wrong.
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I don't believe I quoted the Stalker description in beta...in fact, I didn't really post *anything* in the Stalker beta test thread...maybe 1 post about a precieved bug with the origin temp power.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Also, Leo_G? You posting the Stalker description got shot down on beta and is being shot down now. An AT is not restricted to their description. Also, I clearly see "DEADLY DAMAGE" highlighted there. Pretty sure they actually do that now, instead of being sub-optimal, sub-par Scrappers/Brutes. |
I quote the AT description now to bring to light exactly what you got was an illusion created by you guys. You *think* you knew what the AT should be not because of what it was suppose to do but what you wanted it to do. EG even hinted that what we got was because it was what you wanted, not what the AT needed.
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THEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED!|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Hidden AS was never the best mechanic, I'm sorry.
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That has been what I've said since the beginning. Sorry if you still couldn't hear that.
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Really? REALLY? Hang on.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I don't believe I quoted the Stalker description in beta...in fact, I didn't really post *anything* in the Stalker beta test thread...maybe 1 post about a precieved bug with the origin temp power.
I quote the AT description now to bring to light exactly what you got was an illusion created by you guys. You *think* you knew what the AT should be not because of what it was suppose to do but what you wanted it to do. EG even hinted that what we got was because it was what you wanted, not what the AT needed. |
Edit: I'm sorry. Apparently it wasn't the Stalker Beta thread. My bad. But you did spout this off on two other threads, in varying degrees of 'I told you so' versus 'flat-out rude'.
It was the OTHER furry guy.
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IT WAS FIXED. It's a better power now. I am SO SORRY it hurt your IDEAL PLAYSTYLE. How many 50 Stalkers do you have again?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
THEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED!
That has been what I've said since the beginning. Sorry if you still couldn't hear that. |
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If you genuinely feel everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who's right, then you might need to step back for a moment, take a breather, and reevaluate this. That, and the usage of massive text comes off as you being angry, which is never good either.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That would imply I'm on a crusade. The only crusade I'd be on is waiting for you all to admit you're wrong or hypocrites and then showing everyone how much more effective a scrapping Stalker is vs any other type of Stalker.
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Chill pill.
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It's not my ideal playstyle, but using AS from hide has always and still has been a liability of the attack. It is not fixed now because it is still a liability of the attack. Demoralize was added to it to 'make up' for that liability which it did not and still doesn't and is even more apparent how much a kludge add-on that was.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
IT WAS FIXED. It's a better power now. I am SO SORRY it hurt your IDEAL PLAYSTYLE. How many 50 Stalkers do you have again?
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They didn't fix hidden AS, they replaced it and demoralize. That has nothing to do with my ideal playstyle and has everything to do with the tools the AT was given. If the tools are made pointless vs improved to make them less pointless is the decision that had to be made.
Except YOUR beloved AS is still in the game. Just don't use it out of Hide.
I'm sorry you felt Stalkers needed to be sneaky sneaky in a game that supports going against immeasurable odds and coming out the victor. The new Stalkers are much better.
Now, where are your 50 pre-buff Stalkers? I want to know how many you have as proof as to how EASY IT WAS TO LEVEL THEM.
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I didn't say *everyone* was wrong. Siolfir, for example, doesn't agree with my stance, but he does agree about the basics: placate wasn't very good and is even less applicable now and unhidden AS is greatly more useful than hidden AS.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
If you genuinely feel everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who's right, then you might need to step back for a moment, take a breather, and reevaluate this. That, and the usage of massive text comes off as you being angry, which is never good either.
Chill pill. |
And I used the big text because people keep shoving words in my mouth. That I said stalkers should only hit and run, that that was their ticket to competing for xp gain, that I'm trying to shoehorn Stalkers into *my* playstyle...I never said any of that.
What I will say is, the tools that Stalkers were given (namely demoralize, placate, heck even hide and the scaling crits) take a back seat if not completely thrown out the window. You don't need them thanks to AF. All I wanted was that those old tools not be tossed aside but rather improved. What I get from others when I ask that? "Well those were badly designed..."
Duh! That's why you fix them and make them better, not add more crap ontop so you don't have to look at the useless crap or say "eeehhh, yeah that crap is crap...but lookie! Assassin's Focus!"
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So disregard the AT's inherent.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Except YOUR beloved AS is still in the game. Just don't use it out of Hide.
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Your words, not mine.
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| I'm sorry you felt Stalkers needed to be sneaky sneaky in a game that supports going against immeasurable odds and coming out the victor. The new Stalkers are much better. |
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| Now, where are your 50 pre-buff Stalkers? I want to know how many you have as proof as to how EASY IT WAS TO LEVEL THEM. |
You're the one who hates the new AS, so don't use it. But since you DO use it, it ruins your argument. "I HATE THIS THING BUT IT'S SO GOOD I HAVE TO USE IT!". I can end the argument RIGHT there, and I will. Because nothing else matters at this point.
You use the new AS. You use the new Inherent. DONE.
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*Now* you're done. Was that so hard?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You're the one who hates the new AS, so don't use it. But since you DO use it to prove the old AS is still not fixed, that's what makes your argument. "I DON'T THINK THIS THING WAS THE RIGHT PATH BUT IT'S SO GOOD I HAVE TO USE IT!". I can end the argument RIGHT there, and I will. Because nothing else matters at this point.
You use the new AS. You use the new Inherent and can disregard the old one. DONE. |
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See, that's what I mean. That was unnecessary, and makes you seem angry. Just step away, you're doing nothing but hurting your image and your cause. You've said your piece, leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
*Now* you're done. Was that so hard?
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I don't have a 'cause' but it's rather bias of you to come at me telling me to leave and not someone else.
Am I not allowed to defend Stalker's ability to solo before they were altered? I find that highly unfair that we're suppose to just accept that 'Stalkers sucked solo' or need evidence to say otherwise while the 'Stalkers sucked solo' statement can go unopposed.
For the record, I am not asking for a Scrapper buff. I am asking for something unique that they don't have to share with everyone else. The fact is Stalker Crits are better than the scrapper version, and they share crits in the first place. I promise, my stalkers crit far more than my scrapers solo. The Stalker ATIO is just that much better, on that note the Brute ATIO proc is that much better too. That in the least should be looked at again.
Dang, all I wanted was more endurance.
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Part of the problem here is that CoX, bluntly, has more damage ATs than there can reasonably be niches for them, especially in the melee space.
In the grand scheme of things, we have four melee ATs. One (tanker) is the designated tank; they're primarily focused on defense and, well, tanking things, and their damage suffers as a result. One (brute) is slanted towards defense (evidenced in that brutes get tanker resist caps), but can generate higher damage over time (fury), but have low initial damage. One (scrapper) is slanted towards offense, but doesn't throw team defense to the wind (confront exists, some but not all scrapper secondaries have taunt auras). And the last (stalker) is primarily focused on offense and has no tools to protect a team.
It stands to reason that, on average, Stalkers should outdamage all of them consistently, with Scrappers being very slightly ahead of Brutes (given Brutes have slightly more off-tanking utility) and Tankers being at the bottom (sorry J_B).
I agree that Scrappers should have something unique to them, but power-wise they're quite fine where they are. And as long as Stalkers have less HP than the other three types and no tanking tools, they should have the highest damage of the four melee classes.
And, while it's not particularly pertinent to this thread, Blasters should beat all four of them handily, regardless of whether they're in range or melee, because they have stalker HP, lower HP cap, no tanking tools, few self-defense tools, and range is not an adequate defense in CoX.
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I leveled 2 stalkers to 50 before the recent buffs (one to 50 before the old buffs). |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I don't have a 'cause' but it's rather bias of you to come at me telling me to leave and not someone else.
Am I not allowed to defend Stalker's ability to solo before they were altered? I find that highly unfair that we're suppose to just accept that 'Stalkers sucked solo' or need evidence to say otherwise while the 'Stalkers sucked solo' statement can go unopposed. |
I stopped playing stalkers for a while when Castle basically said that they would receive no buffs. After the whole exercise with changing brutes so there was a spectrum of survivability vs. damage, and yet stalkers got left out in the cold I decided it wasn't worth bothering with stalkers since they were the red haired stepchild.
Could you solo a stalker before the buffs? Of course. People manage to solo emp defenders, how hard can it be to solo a stalker?
That's one hell of a pathetically low bar to set as your measure. The ability to solo does not imply anything about being even vaguely comparable to the other melee classes.
They needed a buff for the simple reason that if the devs wanted to even suggest the pretense that the melee classes operated on a spectrum of high offense/lower defense to higher defense/lower offense, then the lowest defense option, the stalker, had to have the highest offense.
Now I will say, I don't really see why they buffed the HP, as it doesn't do much for the argument, but the offensive buffs I fully support. It is was a necessary change such that you could differentiate the melee classes properly.
Oh, and if you are focused on the wonders that is attacking from ambush, well that's all well and good, but the mechanics of the game blew past that a long time ago. The game is too fast paced for that tactic to be anything but a hindrance, especially on teams.
Oh, and as for the OP, I have no objection to giving the scrappers a team buff which they don't notice themselves. It would be good for them to have some force multiplier status since they lack almost any team support outside of straight up damage.
Too many alts to list.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Now I will say, I don't really see why they buffed the HP, as it doesn't do much for the argument, but the offensive buffs I fully support. It is was a necessary change such that you could differentiate the melee classes properly.
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The HP Buff was for sets that have the ability to raise their own HP namely Willpower,Regen and Ice. With the old HP cap of 1606 those secondaries weren't able to take advantage of their abilities. IIRC a single SO in HPT at level 50 basically put you at the cap.
As a reference point my NB/SR (a set with no ability to raise it's HP) is at 1500 something(closer to 16 than 15) with the accolades and random set bonuses that I wasn't aiming for. So without really trying I got near the old HP CAP.
Does the Hp buff do anything for him? not really except maybe if Frostworks or a similar power is ever used on him the HP boost won't go to waste.
But the HP buff was so that Stalker secondaries with HP boosting capabilities can actually make use of those capabilities.
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Remind me, did they only buff the cap or the base HP as well? If it's just the cap, then there's no issue.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
The HP Buff was for sets that have the ability to raise their own HP namely Willpower,Regen and Ice. With the old HP cap of 1606 those secondaries weren't able to take advantage of their abilities. IIRC a single SO in HPT at level 50 basically put you at the cap.
As a reference point my NB/SR (a set with no ability to raise it's HP) is at 1500 something(closer to 16 than 15) with the accolades and random set bonuses that I wasn't aiming for. So without really trying I got near the old HP CAP. Does the Hp buff do anything for him? not really except maybe if Frostworks or a similar power is ever used on him the HP boost won't go to waste. But the HP buff was so that Stalker secondaries with HP boosting capabilities can actually make use of those capabilities. |
Too many alts to list.
The buff from I22 was to the cap only.
Way back in I12 Stalkers received a base Hp buff but the cap was left alone.
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Ok, then nevermind on the complaint. I think the buffs were fine. Stalkers get a chance to shine now, and it's a welcome change.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
The buff from I22 was to the cap only.
Way back in I12 Stalkers received a base Hp buff but the cap was left alone. |
Too many alts to list.
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Yay it isn't me anymore!
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Congrats, Leo. You've become the J_B of Stalkers.
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When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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If you're saying that they do, then I agree with you. If you're saying that they should and Blasters should not, then I think you're delusional. Blasters should be the best damage AT in the game since it's pretty much all they are. Scrappers shouldn't even be as high at sustained single target as Stalkers (and now, for the most part, they aren't) but it should be close (and generally, it is) and they make up the overall damage difference with generally higher AoE and have more hit points to let them take the extra aggro. Specific set-by-set comparisons will vary, but as an overall I'd say that the individual performance of Scrappers and Stalkers is roughly balanced now. It just took a hell of a lot of buffs (more than I expected) to get Stalkers to that point and, if anything, the survivability difference is less than I would have adjusted things for because of the aggro-shedding tools that Stalkers get (the most reliable of which - Placate - hurts their role while teaming, since it simply forces the mob to go after another target who may not handle it as well as the Stalker and in most cases also reduces their damage because of the lost animation time). So yeah, if anything it may lean a little more to the Stalker at this point but Scrappers have more long-duration damage buffs available and more secondaries that assist their damage to make certain builds that will keep up with and/or exceed most Stalker builds even in the Stalker's main strength of single target damage.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
What was said was that Scrappers should lead in "Raw DPS". This is not me suggesting it to anyone this is me telling you as fact but in context of other hero ATs.
An average Blaster with an SO build would be abit more burst like and out of endurance trying to keep up with an average SO Scrapper build. Now you take a Blaster in a team condition being buffed then it's no longer Raw DPS. It's not me suggesting, it's me telling you. |
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
If Stalkers were suppose to be 'Single Target Damage Kings' why does it not say that in their description?
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And yes, there are too many mild variations on the "melee AT" role, which leads to a player-perceived need to make tweaks to distinguish them from each other because the end role for all of them is "kill stuff" and the main differences are how you go about doing that. I mentioned that before i22 open beta also, but changing that isn't something that they can get away with this late in the game - that ship sailed with CoV launch when they made new ATs rather than tweaking the existing ones.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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And I don't even have to do the last part anymore. Everyone has been beautifully demonstrating how useless hidden AS has become.