Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Great! Now we know what we want. We want to go from Grocery Store Brand Vanilla Ice cream to Hagandaz! I prefer Bluebell when I could eat the stuff, but whatever.
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But what of the lactose intolerant?! Lactose-free scrappers or I rage-quit!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Kinda funny, because IRL I am. I have to got the frozen yogurt route.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
But what of the lactose intolerant?!
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Pthhthhh|
Originally Posted by firespray
I'm disappointed in you Arcana. That is clearly not a cookie dough blizzard.
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I'm not that crazy about chocolate sauce on my mint chip. But I do love a hot fudge sunday with chocolate sauce. Which I think are stalkers. Maybe tankers. No, can't be tankers. Tankers are frozen yogurt: different, just as tasty, but there's always that one guy that keeps screaming they aren't real ice cream like anyone cares.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
My dear, you just committed one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But another is that you don't get into an analogy war with the EvilGeko.
Because Mint Chip ice cream is delicious all by itself it's true, but since my wife and one of my sons love it to death, I have come to find out that even Mint Chip with more chocolate sauce and whipped cream is better. And Scrappers are dandy, but a bit more dandy wouldn't hurt. |
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Any person of good will should agree that no other justification is necessary. |
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
But EvilGeko wants one dammit!
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Any person of good will should agree that no other justification is necessary.
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I think that guy's hair is not possible without alien intervention.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm sorry, but Dragon's Tail is one of the better PbAoE's. Yes, it's Martial Arts ONLY AoE, but it is one of the best in the game, flat-out.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Right. Logic, do you speak it? And no, not with your butt.
You could have just as easily made a Tanker or Scrapper that couldn't solo effectively as you could a Stalker that couldn't solo and vice versa. Or, to state it plainly, if you couldn't make a Stalker solo well, most likely you'd screw up Tanker solo, Blaster solo, Dominator solo and Scrapper solo. None of those are straight forward solo ATs, not even the Scrapper (unless you specifically build them for mitigation and/or set the difficulty to its lowest). Conversely, a Stalker could relatively easily solo anything. If a mission is truly truly hard, a Stalker can do something those other guys can't do: hit and run. It ain't fast, but who cares? You're solo and the foe is handing your rear to you. As for AoE on teams, I'll point you to Martial Arts, Energy Melee and Dark Melee on Scraps, Tanks and Brutes (surprise surprise, those are the same sets that have weak AoE on Stalkers too!). A DM or EM character is going to be weak in AoE, so what? A Spines or Elec Stalker will be great in AoE, so what? You've lost any logic foothold you imagined you had. |
Yes, Dark Melee lacks the same quality of AoE but I know a lot of people will fight to the DEATH defending Shadow Maul, Dark Consumption, and Soul Drain.
Yes, Energy Melee has very weak AoE, BUT it still has it.
Now, let me just go to Stalkers for a moment...
Dragon's Tail? Snipped.
Flailing Derp? Snipped.
BUT AT LEAST THEY KEPT SHADOW MAUL! ...
I do not understand why people immediately attack one's own play experience when stating a case. It's almost like they all take a page from the same book of counter-logic. And it didn't work then, it didn't work now.
BUT! I am ending the rambling here and point out your biggest failure; You could not state for a fact Stalkers could solo as effectively as Scrappers/Brutes/(Tankers?). Hit and Run is not an efficient XP per Hour way to do anything, so don't respond with that.
Let me reword my question; Could Stalkers keep up with Scrappers/Brutes/(Tankers?) In XP per Hour, which is the metric that mattered, while soloing? The SAME metric used to bring up the Blaster disparity (along with Blasters just failing in general)?
Try to keep the train on the tracks in your next response, Leo?
And try to be more polite next time? People get on my case when I get even slightly aggressive, so if I'm going to start pointing out when people are pointlessly insulting others.
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That seems like a lot, bro!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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He's a Centauri.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think that guy's hair is not possible without alien intervention.
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Nice.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
He's a Centauri.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Really it depended on the mission type. Nothing could stealth a mission faster than a stalker. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Let me reword my question; Could Stalkers keep up with Scrappers/Brutes/(Tankers?) In XP per Hour, which is the metric that mattered, while soloing? The SAME metric used to bring up the Blaster disparity (along with Blasters just failing in general)?
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Now I would say 3 of them are neck in neck. Brutes, Stalkers, and Scrappers are about even.
All motives aside, I am not sure the current stalker changes were tested enough, and by enough people. I love them as they are now, no doubt, but I am not sure all of the buffs they have seen over the years stacked on top of each other is not too much. Add in the ATIO proc and I think they pull ahead of scrappers and brutes a little.
I know that is not going to be popular coming from me, and I want to be clear that I am NOT saying they need to be nerfed. They are fun, and that is what is important about the AT. For the first time ever I am really torn as to what my next toon will be, and Staff/EA Scrapper or Stalker. I like that it is a hard choice.
Outside of wanting something unique for scrappers, I think increasing the crit chance in the Scrapper ATIO would bring it back in line. The Brute and Stalker ATIO procs just seem to give a better benefit to me.
None of that would solve that scrappers have nothing unique of course.
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Wait... there's the answer right there: Give only scrappers access to Centauri hair. Also, give them an e-mote that's "I'm not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens."
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How do you figure? If you compare the PBAOEs from all the scrapper primaries, Dragon's Tail is middle of the road by nearly any metric you care to come up with. If you go by raw damage, it's in the bottom third. If you go by recharge, it's about average at 14 seconds. If you go by damage/end usage, it's 4th from the top. The only metric where it is significantly better than some sets is DPA (which doesn't matter as much for AoE attacks), and even then it's beat out by both street justice and titan weapons, and isn't significantly better than katana, fiery melee, or claws, all three of which have better burst damage. So while it's not a bad AoE, it can hardly be called one of the best in the game.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I'm sorry, but Dragon's Tail is one of the better PbAoE's. Yes, it's Martial Arts ONLY AoE, but it is one of the best in the game, flat-out.
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Brilliant!
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Wait... there's the answer right there: Give only scrappers access to Centauri hair. Also, give them an e-mote that's "I'm not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens."
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DPA indeed. Also a very useful secondary effect. I also don't consider overpowered Pay 2 Win sets like Titan Weapons, a set I STRONGLY feel needs a few hits with the nerf bat, but never received and never will now. You will not find me harping on about a set needing nerfs like Titan Weapons does.|
Originally Posted by firespray
How do you figure? If you compare the PBAOEs from all the scrapper primaries, Dragon's Tail is middle of the road by nearly any metric you care to come up with. If you go by raw damage, it's in the bottom third. If you go by recharge, it's about average at 14 seconds. If you go by damage/end usage, it's 4th from the top. The only metric where it is significantly better than some sets is DPA (which doesn't matter as much for AoE attacks), and even then it's beat out by both street justice and titan weapons, and isn't significantly better than katana, fiery melee, or claws, all three of which have better burst damage. So while it's not a bad AoE, it can hardly be called one of the best in the game.
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If your view of 'superior' is burst damage, then yes. Dragon's Tail falls behind, slightly. Still animates a LOT faster with a good base damage, though. In fact... (Skipping the flatly BAD ones)
Dragon's Tail: 81.2 Base Damage, Knockdown, 1.716 Arcanamation.
The Lotus Drops: 91.34 Base Damage, -Defense, 1.98 Arcanamation.
Spin: 108.7 Base Damage, 2.64 Arcanamation
Fire Sword Circle: 126.7 Base Damage, 2.94 Arcanamation
....
Nope, giving it to Dragon's Tail. It is definitely one of the better overall PBAoE's, by a margin, of STANDARD PBAoE. AKA 8 Radius generics. It won't beat the power-creep AoE's (Spinning Strike arguably, Whirling Smash DEFINITELY).
Note: I am aware of Damage Scaling, and Dragon's Tail keeps up very nicely. It's speed also allows a secondary AoE to be fired off quickly, for faster 'burst' damage IE: a fireball.
Calling for a nerf in this game is just crazy. It has been demonstrated over and over that power creep, and balance flew out the window a long time ago. If anything the older sets need to be brought up to the performance level of StJ and TW.
You do realize the devs can and will continue to make the game more and more challenging right? They will NEVER run out of mobs, or powers to give mobs. They will always come up with handy tricks to even things up. Power Creep is an excuse people use to keep people in their place. Wow I sounded like a 60's activist in that one.
When the devs stated that they balance the game around SO's (which people LOVE to throw that statement around), then they were stating that they wanted power creep when they added Purples, PvP IOs, ATIOs, and Incarnate powers. In a game that is balanced around SOs, power creep (and balance really) goes out the window.
So, either the game is balanced with those things in mind, or the devs don't care as much about balance as some people seem to think.
For the record, I think the incarnate content should be balanced and designed with uber builds in mind. I don't think any of you would really like it if this game were truly balanced.
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Like I said, it's okay. If you like it, then great, but it's nowhere near good enough to be called the best in the game. And you can call Titan Weapons and Street Justice pay to win and ignore them all you want, but they're in the game, they exist, and they're considerably better than MA, it's just reality.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
DPA indeed. Also a very useful secondary effect. I also don't consider overpowered Pay 2 Win sets like Titan Weapons, a set I STRONGLY feel needs a few hits with the nerf bat, but never received and never will now. You will not find me harping on about a set needing nerfs like Titan Weapons does.
If your view of 'superior' is burst damage, then yes. Dragon's Tail falls behind, slightly. Still animates a LOT faster with a good base damage, though. In fact... (Skipping the flatly BAD ones) Dragon's Tail: 81.2 Base Damage, Knockdown, 1.716 Arcanamation. The Lotus Drops: 91.34 Base Damage, -Defense, 1.98 Arcanamation. Spin: 108.7 Base Damage, 2.64 Arcanamation Fire Sword Circle: 126.7 Base Damage, 2.94 Arcanamation .... Nope, giving it to Dragon's Tail. It is definitely one of the better overall PBAoE's, by a margin, of STANDARD PBAoE. AKA 8 Radius generics. It won't beat the power-creep AoE's (Spinning Strike arguably, Whirling Smash DEFINITELY). Note: I am aware of Damage Scaling, and Dragon's Tail keeps up very nicely. It's speed also allows a secondary AoE to be fired off quickly, for faster 'burst' damage IE: a fireball. |
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That's a new one on me.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Arcanamation
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I actually did it on accident, and realized how much I liked it. I was going for "ArcanaTime Animation", and somehow shorthanded "Arcanamation".|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's a new one on me.
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Win/Win.
As for Melee Sets being buffed up to StJ/TW? No. That just ruins Blasters more, unless you plan on suggesting Fire Blast and Friends being buffed up to AT LEAST Titan Weapon's level of power. Because we already have proven Fire Blast is equal to an average Melee Set, and everything NOT Fire Blast is just "Lolololol".
TW is a set that NEEDS nerfs. To suggest things should be buffed to it would go against the whole "This game needs to be more difficult! ... LET'S BUFF EVERYTHING TO THE OVERPOWERED BROKEN SET
"I don't agree with anyone saying things should be buffed to overpowered sets.
@Zyphoid: Okay, I'm sorry. That's stupid. You're suggesting they balance around power, which means anything not... Titan Weapons is going to perform poorly. Again, Fire Blast is actually a pretty mediocre set in comparison to the Melee Power Creep. What you're asking is insane.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I actually did it on accident, and realized how much I liked it. I was going for "ArcanaTime Animation", and somehow shorthanded "Arcanamation".
Win/Win. As for Melee Sets being buffed up to StJ/TW? No. That just ruins Blasters more, unless you plan on suggesting Fire Blast and Friends being buffed up to AT LEAST Titan Weapon's level of power. Because we already have proven Fire Blast is equal to an average Melee Set, and everything NOT Fire Blast is just "Lolololol". TW is a set that NEEDS nerfs. To suggest things should be buffed to it would go against the whole "This game needs to be more difficult! ... LET'S BUFF EVERYTHING TO THE OVERPOWERED BROKEN SET "I don't agree with anyone saying things should be buffed to overpowered sets. @Zyphoid: Okay, I'm sorry. That's stupid. You're suggesting they balance around power, which means anything not... Titan Weapons is going to perform poorly. Again, Fire Blast is actually a pretty mediocre set in comparison to the Melee Power Creep. What you're asking is insane. |
Blasters DO NEED to be buffed. No one is really arguing that any more are they? It is better to accept that the game is headed in a new direction where we are actually SUPER HEROES, and not dudes who are equal to 3 even con minions. I like this, I play this game to be a super hero. If I wanted more realism, I would be playing another game.
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Dude you just don't get it. The game is balanced around characters using SOs. Which means those who do not use SO are so far above the balance point that there is little point to arguing balance. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
@Zyphoid: Okay, I'm sorry. That's stupid. You're suggesting they balance around power, which means anything not... Titan Weapons is going to perform poorly. Again, Fire Blast is actually a pretty mediocre set in comparison to the Melee Power Creep. What you're asking is insane.
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Also, calling me stupid is a fast way for me to call you a name that would get me banned. How about we speak to each other as if we were face to face. Calling me stupid to my face may not be a good idea. I may take that personal.
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You weren't called stupid, your argument was. >_>
I do like your analogy though I'd take it a step further. Scrappers are like a scoop of haagen dazs vanilla ice-cream. Brutes are a blizzard from dairy queen. Both are delicious, but for different reasons. For the haagen-dazs, its simplicity and quality are what make it shine.