Give Scrappers a real inherent power

See, there's the difference between you and me. I don't want my scrappers to be tanks. I want my scrappers to be scrappers. If I wanted to play a tank, I'd play a tanker. They have a class for that.


I do, frequently. And I actually do what scrappers are meant to do, not what tankers are meant to do.

Or I could leave out confront because I don't need it. Why waste a power pick on a useless power when I can have something awesome (like combat jumping) instead.

I had a reply, but decided there was no reason for me to become a troll too.

But by the logic that people are using to oppose this, yes it's quite relevant. You're not saying that Stalkers were weaker. Just that they were weaker than their brothers. Brutes and Scrappers are very strong. Stalkers were very strong. People just wanted Stalkers to be stronger.

As you have admitted, Stalkers were not hurting. They just weren't as good as Scrappers or Brutes. If an AT can have no trouble solo or in groups, but still gets a very substantial buff, then there is absolutely no need for me to justify anything.

Stalkers didn't NEED a buff. The players of Stalker WANTED a buff. They got it. Good for them. It is now entirely fair for Scrapper players to ask for something since their entire inherent is substantially weaker than Stalkers.

That train left the station long ago mate...long ago.

And lo, power creep.

The devs felt they did need a buff. The devs did not make the changes just because players wanted it, that is a misrepresentation of the facts.

See I feel the same way, except about you. It is possible that we are both right I guess. I have attempted to be constructive though, I refuse to back down from my stance. EG is at this point doing a far better job of arguing it than I ever could.

Inherent powers are kludges to fix AT imbalances, starting with Scrappers getting Criticals to help their damage.

You can have balanced ATs, or you can have balanced Inherent powers. You can't have both.

Actually, scrappers had criticals from day one. It was never a kludge to fix AT imbalance. Other inherents have been added over time to fix AT imbalances until CoV came out. With CoV, all the classes were designed with inherents in mind from the beginning.

False dichotomy. There's no reason you can't have balanced ATs and balanced inherent powers.

However, I don't really care whether the inherents are balanced against each other. I care whether the archetypes are. If an archetype is strong enough that even with a weak inherent it is on par with the other archetypes that have stronger inherents, than that is fine with me.

According to Paragonwiki, only a few Scrapper attacks could crit originally - the ones that have bonus crit chance now. Crits were added to all attacks in issue 1, and crits as we know them, with CRITICAL text and the higher chance against Lt+ were added in issue 2. As I recall, this was presented along with dev comments that a Scrapper's role on a team was as a boss killer - that is, it was designed to fix the (perceived?) imbalance of Scrappers not having a place on a team.

The reason is trying to pull this off would drive the devs insane.

I agree.

Stalkers were playable, but they needed the buff because they were noticeably under-performing in their role as the melee glass cannons and masters of single-target damage. Now they have nice pylon times like brutes and scraps, so something was done right - if you ask the pylons.

Define 'substantially weaker'. Or why this matters when you take in effect scrappers' higher damage mod, damage auras, AoEs, and better survivability compared to stalkers.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

That train has not only left the station. It's made it to its destination. We're at a point where power creep isn't even a reasonable argument anymore. There hasn't been any AT in years that hasn't been able to survive solo and contribute to a team.

The justification for just about every buff we've seen in the last 2-3 years has been to make them more 'fun' either solo or in groups. So why not give Scrappers something for when they are in groups.

Right now we have neither. Balance among the 4 melee ATs is just about meaningless. Three of the four are clearly tank mages and the fourth, Tanks, is currently under evaluation by the devs.

Inherent powers STARTED as kludges to fix AT imbalances. But that's not why Defenders got their inherent, nor why it got buffed. Honestly, it seems to me that the devs buff ATs just to get more people to play them. For the life of me, I can't see how Stalkers deserved a buff before Blasters and I pray Arcanaville wins her crusade regarding them.

Balance would not allow the majority of ATs to handle group content with ease, even considering Inventions. But that's where we are. The game is off the rails. These high minded arguments that we need to maintain 'balance' lost me when you gave an AT with: Stealth, an aggro drop, a better version of the Scrapper inherent, an AoE fear on the ST nuke, & controlled crits even more buffs.

Let's parse that out. Blasters can reasonably be called 'glass cannons'. Stalkers have 134 less HP at level 50 than Scrappers. They are not and never have been a 'glass cannon'.

As for masters of single-target damage. I could get on board with that. However, every new set has retained its AoE in the Stalker version. Hell, Kinetic Melee is MUCH better on Stalkers than it is on anyone else because they get AS instead of that useless Repulsing Torrent. And Castle would never admit it to me, but I'm sure that was intentional.

While I don't understand why such a massive buff was necessary, I don't begrudge Stalkers the buff. I don't see why people are so actively opposed to an ally-only buff for Scrappers.

As for pylons. When you have ATs doing solo what was originally designed to be a raid target....sigh. Let me ask you this; do you really think balance means anything at this point?

• Higher damage mod - Where's my controlled crits? Or my scaling crit rate in teams? Or my 50% AoE crit rate from Hide. That's before the recent buff.
• Damage auras - My Regen has a damage aura? Where? Can you show it to me? I can't believe I was such a noob.
• AoEs - Stalker Kinetic, Electric, Street Justice, Staff, Spines say hi!
• Survivability - When Stalkers were asking for buffs I said many, many times, equalize their HP with Scrappers. That would have been fairer. Nobody wanted the 134 Health. The wanted to continue to make the argument that they were weaker than Scrappers. No matter how minute that difference was.

Well I do. But then I feel I'm at least entitled to begrudge since I've been playing them back when their crit rate was tied to the foe being held or slept.

That is to say, I'm not wishing the old Stalker was back, but I'm not bias either. Putting their Max HP and HP cap up to where it is blurs Scrapper and Stalker survival. Giving them inherent crits blurs their roles. Neither of those are bad on their own, but together it's iffy. Then go and add utility (demoralize), scaling crits, give them sets that retain their AoE, then make their situational attack just another button to mash and you practically have *NO* distinction. The only real difference is one hits hard from crits and the other just hits hard (and can crit).

I'm not campaigning for changes to be reverted but I wish the people defending Stalkers right now would just plain admit there could have been so many better ways to improve Stalkers than this...

60% resist to 75% resist. The only set with any meaningful DDR still has less than its scrapper equivalent. Willpower comes with a click heal instead of regen. Heck, the most popular secondary is the one with a quick heal, mass slow, mass confuse, and mass placate as its second line of defense.

Compared to all the other melees? Yeah, its a glass cannon.

What purpose does an ally-only buff fufill? Why the heck does a scrapper even need an ally-only buff beyond 'well the stalkers got a buff'?

Considering there's now balance between tanks, brutes, scraps, and stalkers, I will say yes, balance does mean something.

Stalkers outperforming scrappers in single-target damage was always as intended.

So the damage auras in fire, elec, and dark don't count?

So the lack of AoEs in Katana, Broadsword, Martial Arts et al don't count?

Equalizing their HP doesn't fix the lack of resistance or reliance on clicky heals and gimmicks. And they weer supposed to be weaker than scrappers - that's the trade-off for being better at single targets than scrappers.

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

What are you talking about? Stalkers and Scrappers (and Brutes) have a .75 resistance mod.

How many Scrapper sets other than Super Reflexes have 'meaningful DDR'?

That is not a point in your favor. Reconstruction provides toxic resists, it's healing. Saturated to ten targets RTTC gives 633% Regen. That's heals a bit more than 1.5 of your max health in one minute. That's assuming you can keep ten targets around you for the whole minute.

Reconstruction with SOs returns 50% health every 30 seconds. And it benefits from additional recharge. Get it to 20 second recharge (which my Stalker and Scrapper does) and it heals as much as a fully saturated RTTC and you don't have to have keep any NPCs around you. And Recon can heal through burst damage. And as I said, it gives toxic resists.

134 Health makes you a glass cannon? Because that's the difference.

That was the basis for the Stalker buff, so why not?

And they did. You just couldn't faceroll to do it.

You're counting it as a benefit when only a 1/3 of the sets have it. So no they don't count in Inter-AT balance.

Katana and Broadsword have 130 degree cones. So no, they don't count. I'll give you Martial Arts.

Which is good since there is no difference.

I have no real idea what you are going on about other than you trying to make this some kind of personal thing which it is not for me.

I don't see a thing constructive about multi thread campaigns to make the suggested changes at all. Maybe the devs do and will adapt something that was suggested, but since they have a full plate already I doubt merit less changes are high on the list. YMMV.

QFE, QFT.

I actually didn't care if Stalkers wound up better than Scrappers. I play plenty of Stalkers and they were the first AT I beta tested during CoVs beta. I love the AT. But I think that the always on crit chance and the scaling crits were a cop out.

Especially when there are so many examples of 'rogue' ATs in the MMORPG space.

You are correct, and I apologize.

As for the multiple thread portion, I would prefer if it were in one thread, but it is not. Each thread is so long now I am not sure it is even fair to request a merger of the threads.

You are forgeting that scrappers get a higher self buff mod too.
You are also glossing over the fact that even with all those tricks stalkers
barely outdamage scrappers single target (yeah I know Street Justice) and
its no question who wins the aoe fight.

Stalkers were a dying species before these changes, they were necessary.
You claim that stalkers were outdamaging scrappers single target before the changes, and Yes in unrealistic even on paper hedge cases it did happen rarely (good luck getting 5 teamates in your team buff radius...) but it was marginal.



If you can find a way to buff Scrappers while maintaining Stalker Single target Supremacy (as is intended, and finally reality in practice) more power to you.

I still think it needs to be low on the the developer priority list.

But it's not a point, it's just your own preference. Several others in other threads have expressed their preference that they like having a no-frills self-sufficient damage dealer available to them. Each preference has equal validity.

When Stalkers were being pushed for a buff, it was possible to list reasons. "Given the assumption that all ATs should be viable options, the fact that so few people play Stalkers presents a problem. They do not fulfill their intended role well enough, and properly utilizing their available powers requires a slow pace that very few people find fun."

That is an argument. Your argument in each of these Scrapper threads has been, "I think Scrappers should get a unique mechanic because I think each AT should get a unique mechanic." That's not compelling. That's just your preference. If a majority of people plus the devs shared your preference, it wouldn't be an issue, and it might even be counted as a core assumption. But they don't.

Now, I can see an argument for ensuring each AT is unique. After all, if two ATs aren't sufficiently differentiated, why have two ATs at all? However, an AT encompasses more than just the inherent, and I do not believe it has been shown that Scrappers are not sufficiently differentiated.

Yes, I realize you personally have been making a distinction between NEED and WANT, but rather than simply stating your preference and leaving it at that, you've been pursuing it pretty aggressively, as if you think your wants are what should be prioritized. When you're spending your own money or time, you can indulge your own wants without any justification, but here you're arguing that your wants deserve development time that could instead be used on things that have better justification for dev attention.

That's why you get people pushing back against you and EG, even people who might otherwise enjoy a small Scrapper buff. This is the City of Heroes equivalent of First World Problems.