Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Let the record show that he typed this himself.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I honestly don't see how using a taunt somehow makes you smart or a superior player
... I only use it because it looks cool |
Seriously, I'd love to see one of the confront haters stand up for their viewpoint. So far it seems to be "Well I've never taken it therefore it's bad." That's a great reason to demand balance changes to an archetype and certainly not evidence that you're hoping to be spoon-fed the tepid pap of homogeneity.
I've taken confront before. I had it, I tried using it, I found it completely unhelpful for anything the character needed to do. The uses being described for it now don't sound helpful, either, but apparently that's a matter of opinion. I don't doubt that some other players find it useful in some way. That's why, if it is ever changed, I think it should be in a way that preserves or improves the current function. Cuz hey, it does look cool, I'd love to have a reason to use the Confront animations for TW or DB.
It could not be improved without in some way impairing its current function. I recommend you give it another try, Hopeling, because I don't see how you'd do quite a few things that I consider commonplace without it. For example, being the only melee on a STF or RSF. Who else is going to bunch up the AVs in missions two and three respectively? Likewise for Kahn. How will you keep Battle Maiden from ever standing in a blue patch on Apex?
That's the obvious stuff though. Its real use is for finesse. Blending spawns together at the rate that your TF team can handle, rather than in huge clumps. Isolating AVs until they're ready to be dealt with.
Or I guess everyone could just toggle up and press buttons until the mans fall over! We're scrappers, y'all.
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The one for DB is particularly awesome. Awesome looking any way.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Cuz hey, it does look cool, I'd love to have a reason to use the Confront animations for TW or DB.
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I'm far from convinced of that, but since I'm not the one using its current function I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt here. If, say, the -range was increased to -99%, forcing the enemy to get even closer and making it more effective against higher-level foes, that seems like it should be at least as useful as it is now. Or adding a -damage effect. Or something else, I duno, I'm not particularly campaigning for Confront changes here (or any changes, for that matter), so I'm just idly tossing out ideas.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It could not be improved without in some way impairing its current function.
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I recommend you give it another try, Hopeling, because I don't see how you'd do quite a few things that I consider commonplace without it. For example, being the only melee on a STF or RSF. Who else is going to bunch up the AVs in missions two and three respectively? Likewise for Kahn. How will you keep Battle Maiden from ever standing in a blue patch on Apex? That's the obvious stuff though. Its real use is for finesse. Blending spawns together at the rate that your TF team can handle, rather than in huge clumps. Isolating AVs until they're ready to be dealt with. Or I guess everyone could just toggle up and press buttons until the mans fall over! We're scrappers, y'all. |
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I wasn't even advocating replacing Confront at all. |
Originally Posted by firespray
I'm not sure about the others posting here, but my argument for changing confront is not that scrappers need the help. I just don't like useless powers that are skipped by 90% of all players, and that goes for any powerset. I wish they'd go through all of the powersets and replace the powers that everyone skips.
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Just slightly altering the secondary effect that comes with the taunt.
My suggestion for an Accuracy debuff against targets that have accuracy bonuses wouldn't even be especially useful if your scrapper is soft-capped or has no defense at all. The sweet spot of usefulness would be for those scrappers that have medium defense, say in the 20-30% range. Currently, if you have 20% defense, an AV would have a 30% chance to hit you, instead of 20%. An accuracy debuff would let you actually benefit from a little more of your defense.
And you'd have to make the choice: Use Confront to debuff that accuracy bonus, or attack. Since, as mentioned, probably 90% of all scrappers skip Confront anyway, it would maybe give some of those people a reason to take it, and it wouldn't remove the core function of the power for those people who have and use it already. (since it would still be a taunt power)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
While I don't think Scrappers need a buff, something unique would be cool.
How about a specific minor improvement to Scrapper crits?
Like a stacking effect that reduces the targets resistance or defense a small amount, perhaps 2 or 3 percent? Basically this would represent that the crit has struck a weakness and doing so, made the target slightly more vulnerable for further attacks.
DM/Elec brute, 50
Ice/Psi dom, 50
Crab, 50
Elec/WP Scrapper, 50
TW/WP Scrapper, 50
Robot/Trap MM, 50
Fire/Earth dom, 50
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Because it's fast. If you pull all of them to Korol you save upwards of a minute or two of fooling around. That's important when your final time is going to be well under thirty. In my experience it isn't very hard to convince anyone to let your scrapper be the only melee on a speed STF since they're liable to all bring corruptors in the first place. In any case, the -range is a big part of what makes confront and taunt as effective as they are. Prior to the addition of that confront was indeed quite skippable.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Wait, why are we bunching up the AVs in STF mission two?
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Yes you are the satisfied with the big crutch type obviously. A smart player would identify and anticipate when someone else will be compriomised about them and act on it instantly, and by using confront will more than anyother likely guarantee a challenge accepted. It pays to have confront in a PvP team by a huge amount too, you taunt the tank, freeing up the tank in your team to go do something about the gankers. It can be the same with AVs that fear mainly. An AV could be dealing a particular mezz type a Tanker isn't built to resist but your Scrapper is, whilst a Tanker is Black Holed there is no telling whether or not the Tankers duration is long enough and a couple of confronts to protect the team could be nice. I never do the getting of certain support sets for a team, everything I need is basically everywhere.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Right, and you just have Confront in the 1 slot. Welcome to the monkey training club.
I honestly don't see how using a taunt somehow makes you smart or a superior player. I certainly took it on my Katana Scrapper but not because I think it puts me in some top 5% or something. Heck, I only use it because it looks cool >_> |
I am going to be rough on selfish builds in future and support the non selfish ones only. The Scrappers I see pushing their boundaries might find themselves over and over their heads more. If they can't bring anything to the team other than their own ego then sod them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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It's not an opinion. The only AT that is in any significant danger solo is Blasters. The only AT that is unable to defeat an Elite Boss with SOs (all anyone could expect solo) is....ummm none. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The bolded part is your opinion, and I feel comfortable in saying it's not an opinion that was representative of the majority for the ATs in question.
I do not believe that to be the case in this scenario. |
People wanted their ATs to feel more special to them so they asked for buffs.
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My solution is to e-mail every power analyzer I get to @EvilGeko.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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It's an opinion. It holds that those are the only things that can be described as an issue with an AT. That's an opinion, not a fact. I'd add it's an opinion that the devs don't seem to share.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's not an opinion. The only AT that is in any significant danger solo is Blasters. The only AT that is unable to defeat an Elite Boss with SOs (all anyone could expect solo) is....ummm none.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Good luck with that. I don't think those players will notice or care very often.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I am going to be rough on selfish builds in future and support the non selfish ones only. The Scrappers I see pushing their boundaries might find themselves over and over their heads more. If they can't bring anything to the team other than their own ego then sod them.
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Maybe you should consider how this would feel turned around. Would you like for teams to skip picking up the Scrappers they see with Confront?
By the way, this is some excellent projection of motive onto others. Perhaps it should occur to you that someone who skips Confront might be doing so with the intent to build the best Scrapper they can in order to bring the most to a team that they can. A Scrapper's strongest abilities lie in dealing damage and surviving damage (so they can deal more damage). By focusing a build on those goals and not diluting their build with things other ATs are better at (aggro control), a Scrapper can bring more base damage to the team, which can then be magnified by buffs and debuffs, than most other ATs. I think that's a laudable build goal.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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With the folks I usually run stuff with, I've never had a problem bunching up the AVs on the STF on ... anything. I just buff up, run out and blast, punch them or toss an anchor toggle on them, then run back. I've never seen anyone have to do anything special to clump the AVs in Kahn. We just fight in one of the side rooms in the back and they come running over all by themselves. (We also never bother to kill them until after Reichs is defeated, though they often die to AoEs.)|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hopeling, because I don't see how you'd do quite a few things that I consider commonplace without it. For example, being the only melee on a STF or RSF. Who else is going to bunch up the AVs in missions two and three respectively? Likewise for Kahn. How will you keep Battle Maiden from ever standing in a blue patch on Apex?
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I'll grant its utility in Apex, though to be honest we do those without a taunter fairly often and still usually do that whole TF in around 15 minutes. Having one makes it faster, but we're probably only shaving off 30 seconds or so.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Actually, you probably get scoffed at due to hyperbole.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Right, a lesson in perspective from the side who thinks Stalkers haven't become absurd? If people thought Scrappers were powerful before but now Stalkers do better, just do some simple arithmetic. What happens when Stalkers get Titan Weapons? What happens when Stalkers get Fire Melee? Fiery Aura?
Anything about the status quo mentioned isn't always going to be the case...not unless nothing will ever change, but that's not going to happen. But I suppose no one bothers thinking about that so I'll just continue to be scoffed at. |
But, let's face it. Titan Weapons needs some major nerfs, Clobber from Mace could deal 50% less damage and still be broken as sin (because it is).
At this point, Melee Sets either need massive nerfs (Titan Weapons NEEDS massive nerfs regardless), or Blast Sets need serious buffs (All blast sets need to be buffed to Fire Blast levels of damage AT MINIMUM, and then increased from there. Don't believe me? Fire Blast is equal to Katana, an average Melee Set. EQUAL TO THE MOST AVERAGE MELEE SET :|)
Wait, this thread was about Scrappers not feeling special anymore?
... Shut up.
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I'll have to remember to ignore anything you say about my builds then. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I am going to be rough on selfish builds in future and support the non selfish ones only. The Scrappers I see pushing their boundaries might find themselves over and over their heads more. If they can't bring anything to the team other than their own ego then sod them.
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I mostly solo my scrappers, so Confront is 100% useless to me. Why would I need to taunt something if I'm the only person in the mission?
If I feel the need to taunt something, that's what second builds are for.
And for the record, in over 6 years of playing scrappers, I cannot recall a single time anyone has EVER complained that I didn't take Confront.
Take it and use it if you like, but don't give other people crap for not wanting to waste a slot on a power that is useless to them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
The problem with Scrapperlock is that non-Scrappers act like Scrappers have the free will to avoid it or something, "Read your chat!! We were going to stop here and buff up, you moron!!!" Yeah, who's the moron there?
So, I propose this as the unique Scrapper inherent: Scrapperlock.
With Scrapperlock, when 80% of a spawn is defeated, the Scrapper's chat window is removed from the GUI and the Scrapper is teleported to the next nearest full spawn generating a 30 foot AoE taunt. Let the Emp Defender finish off those bosses, that's what they're there for.Oh, and a version of Scapperlock should be ported to Brutes, Tankers, Stalkers, Blasters, and all Epic ATs.
5) Yes?
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You forgot the part where it floods Local/Team/League with "DON'T WORRY GUYS, I GOT THIS." or something equal to this.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The problem with Scrapperlock is that non-Scrappers act like Scrappers have the free will to avoid it or something, "Read your chat!! We were going to stop here and buff up, you moron!!!" Yeah, who's the moron there?
So, I propose this as the unique Scrapper inherent: Scrapperlock. With Scrapperlock, when 80% of a spawn is defeated, the Scrapper's chat window is removed from the GUI and the Scrapper is teleported to the next nearest full spawn generating a 30 foot AoE taunt. Let the Emp Defender finish off those bosses, that's what they're there for.Oh, and a version of Scapperlock should be ported to Brutes, Tankers, Stalkers, Blasters, and all Epic ATs. 5) Yes? |
I was thinking about crits in D&D last night. The Long Sword has a roll 19-20 x2 damage crit iirc, the battle axe has a roll 20 x3 crit.
Give scrappers the Battle Axe version, and leave their crit chance where it is.
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I would prefer "LERRRRRRRRRRRROYYYYY SUPERSCRAAAAAAAAPER"|
Originally Posted by Reppu
You forgot the part where it floods Local/Team/League with "DON'T WORRY GUYS, I GOT THIS." or something equal to this.
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just saying.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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A communicative Scrapper?! Are you high!!??
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You forgot the part where it floods Local/Team/League with "DON'T WORRY GUYS, I GOT THIS." or something equal to this.
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PFFFFT, it would be an automatic server message that flashes across the screen ofcourse.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
A communicative Scrapper?! Are you high!!??
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Well, I guess it would help remove some of the stigma of teaming with scrappers if they at least have the illusion of basic social graces.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
PFFFFT, it would be an automatic server message that flashes across the screen ofcourse.
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Why would you advocate making it trigger less often? That makes every fight less likely to actually approach average behavior, while not changing the average.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I was thinking about crits in D&D last night. The Long Sword has a roll 19-20 x2 damage crit iirc, the battle axe has a roll 20 x3 crit.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Generally speaking, I'd much rather have whatever Placate replaced than Placate. Assassin's Strike is good but you have to give up an AoE power to get it. You get no damage auras at all from your armors, essentially meaning some combos give up two AoEs.
If Scrappers really need a "special" inherent, you can change the text on "Critical" to "Eviscerate" or something and get the same effect. The only AT that shares the same mechanic can't do achieve it with the same set of powers. And Scrapper Critical is hardly something to sneeze at.
But the purpose of the post you quoted was to emphasize that some sets are AoE focused and coupled with the ST edge of Stalker creates a rather wonkey sense of balance within the AT and across the other melee ATs. It only takes looking at Energy Melee vs Spines on a Stalker. This will be even more noticeable when you proliferate sets with multiple or wide AoEs like Ice Melee, Titan Weapons and even War Mace. Then couple it with secondary sets geared to enhance damage like Shield Defense and Fiery Aura.
The point of contention here was 'Stalkers are balanced vs Scrappers because they're less survival and have less AoE dmg'. But that can easily be trumped by building/slotting a Stalker to mitigate more damage than their HP difference and picking AoEs (from primary, secondary, pools and epics).