Give Scrappers a real inherent power
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-03-23 13:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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1) Popularity of an AT is not necessarily an indication of an AT's relative strength, but it can be.|
The emphasized sentence is not a reason to buff an AT. Nor is the popularity of an AT relevant to whether it should be buffed. Stalkers performed their intended role, damage, just fine. Saying they didn't perform it 'well enough' is a qualitative assessment. Stalkers could solo fine and contribute to groups. If they were hurting there, then your point might be sound. But pull away the flowery language and Stalkers wanted a buff...because they wanted a buff. |
2) Stalkers were less popular, and that was backed up by datamining that showed that they were leveling slower than other ATs.
3) Stalkers could solo fine, but did so at a slower speed than the Devs determined to be acceptable (otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten a buff)
4) Stalkers could contribute to groups, but did so less than most other ATs (otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten a buff)
Stalkers wanted a buff because they didn't perform their core function well, nor did they perform any other sort of function well, except for one that didn't do well in team play. And even in that role, aggro functions often meant that they couldn't play that team role well.
Stalkers were determined to be under-preforming, so they got a buff. I do not believe you can make a case for Scrappers that shows that they are under-performing similarly. If Scrappers are not shown as under-performing, then they shouldn't get a buff "just because." Stalkers certainly didn't, and it's laughable that you think that's the case.
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Blasters disprove that. One of the most popular ATs, but without doubt the weakest.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
1) Popularity of an AT is not necessarily an indication of an AT's relative strength, but it can be.
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| 2) Stalkers were less popular, and that was backed up by datamining that showed that they were leveling slower than other ATs. |
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| 3) Stalkers could solo fine, but did so at a slower speed than the Devs determined to be acceptable (otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten a buff) |
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| 4) Stalkers could contribute to groups, but did so less than most other ATs (otherwise, they wouldn't have gotten a buff) |
For the last three points, if that's your opinion, then that's cool, but Defenders got their inherent simply to give them an inherent. There have been buffs that were simply bugs that the devs decided not to fix.
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| Stalkers were determined to be under-preforming, so they got a buff. I do not believe you can make a case for Scrappers that shows that they are under-performing similarly. If Scrappers are not shown as under-performing, then they shouldn't get a buff "just because." Stalkers certainly didn't, and it's laughable that you think that's the case. |
Folks you're stating principles that have clearly been tossed to the side and/or ignored more than once. Stalkers got buffed because people wanted them to get buffed. After two previous rounds of buffing it's absolutely laughable to continue to state that AT was hurting, but people did it.
At least I'm being honest about my motivations.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I think I get it. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The emphasized sentence is not a reason to buff an AT. Nor is the popularity of an AT relevant to whether it should be buffed. Stalkers performed their intended role, damage, just fine. Saying they didn't perform it 'well enough' is a qualitative assessment.
Stalkers could solo fine and contribute to groups. If they were hurting there, then your point might be sound. But pull away the flowery language and Stalkers wanted a buff...because they wanted a buff. Then you haven't been listening (err...reading). People are pushing back because they push back against everything. When I spent years arguing for a MoG buff, people pushed back. When it was added, some of those same people were extolling the virtues of the power. For years, I argued that ethos (alignment) has no relevant to what powers a being has and that all ATs should be allowed on all sides. There was no end to the parade of horribles that folks said would befoul the game should this come to pass. Well, it did. Nothing happened...oh except people had more fun. Long ago, I fought tooth and nail with Statesman and folks on these boards about why real numbers are needed and would not hurt the game. Again it was said that the game would literally cease to exist should this come to pass. I have about ten more examples off the top of my head. People argue here because this is an internet forum. If Scrappers got a buff, especially an ally enhancing buff, it would have exactly zero negative effects on the game. Many of these same people pushing back would simply go silent or even praise the change. This is why I both appreciate, but ultimately don't worry most folks negative feedback. |
Prior to the last round of changes Stalkers didn't do anything better than thier brothers.
Scrappers outshinned Stakers in every concievable way with thier superior damage modifier, better self buffing, offensive secondaries, and higher HP (Yes you may discount it, but its there).
If you remember the big swell for stalker buffs came after the scrappers complained that Brutes were outshining them. In fact The same arguements scrappers made against brutes, were used to outline what plagued stalkers.
Now that stalkers finally get to claim the Single Target crown, scrappers need something that they can say: "lookitme." As a stalker only player who has had nothing to write home about since the creation of the AT in PVE, I definately emphasize with that, I guess.
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Could you please clarify just for me and possibly Aett how Blasters disprove that the popularity of an AT is not an indication of an ATs relative strength but can be.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Blasters disprove that. One of the most popular ATs, but without doubt the weakest.
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For the record I am not in total disagreement that something should be done about Blasters myself. I am sure that there is either some better idea than the current Defiance or some tweaks to certain types of powers to improve self sufficiency.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Scrappers should lead in raw DPS, that can be a combination of AoE DPS and ST DPS.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Now that stalkers finally get to claim the Single Target crown, scrappers need something that they can say: "lookitme." As a stalker only player who has had nothing to write home about since the creation of the AT in PVE, I definately emphasize with that, I guess.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You're missing the logic train.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The emphasized sentence is not a reason to buff an AT. Nor is the popularity of an AT relevant to whether it should be buffed. Stalkers performed their intended role, damage, just fine. Saying they didn't perform it 'well enough' is a qualitative assessment.
Stalkers could solo fine and contribute to groups. If they were hurting there, then your point might be sound. But pull away the flowery language and Stalkers wanted a buff...because they wanted a buff. |
1) Stalkers were highly unpopular.
2) One of the devs' core assumptions is that an AT should not be significantly less popular than the other ATs. Less popular, certainly, but not significantly so. (Another core assumption is that an AT should not significantly underperform other ATs, hence the concern about Blasters. Both of these are aspects of game balance.)
3) The devs went, "Why are Stalkers unpopular?"
4) Players gave their reasons why they wouldn't play Stalkers.
5) The devs examined the AT and agreed that those reasons were problematic.
6) Stalkers got a change.
At no point did Stalkers get buffed because Stalker players wanted a buff. That is not and has never been the sole impetus for a change, and I'm frankly shocked that you think it is. The devs have to agree that a change is warranted, and all the devs care about is game balance.
Scrappers will get a review when players leave the Scrapper AT in droves. When players prefer playing Brutes, Stalkers, and even Tankers over Scrappers by a significant margin, then it's reasonable to conclude that they aren't finding the AT interesting any more and something should be done to make it more interesting.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Blasters are one of the more popular characters created, making it quite common to see them. However, they have a high rate of abandonment as level increases, and they were found in the recent past to underperform all other ATs in terms of leveling rate as measured by the devs, whether solo or teamed, and regardless of powersets.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Could you please clarify just for me and possibly Aett how Blasters disprove that the popularity of an AT is not an indication of an ATs relative strength but can be.
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I read of the last few pages of the pylon thread on the scrapper boards shows this is not the case though.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Scrappers should lead in raw DPS, that can be a combination of AoE DPS and ST DPS.
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All in all the lack of a unique inherent is just part of my general frustration with the treatment of scrappers. I have voiced it several times, but the choices made in Power Proliferation is also pretty frustrating. In the last round the feed back thread showed that I was not alone in that frustration.
There are things that I want more in the game than a unique inherent for scrappers. Power Pool customization is at the top of the list, shoot I think it is at the top of the list for the majority of posters on the boards. However the devs are separated into teams, and not every dev is needed for every task. I don't think the FX or animation department would be needed to give scrappers some of what has been suggested in these threads. Most likely it would fall on Synapse's shoulders, maybe Black Scorpion.
Hey I have another idea. Give scrappers a toggle that allows them to turn Knock Back off. Now that would be something great to have!
Really though, any bone thrown to scrappers at this point will make me happy.
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A pylon is a single target, how is it that a Scrapper does not lead in raw DPS with a combination of ST and AoE attacks?
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I read of the last few pages of the pylon thread on the scrapper boards shows this is not the case though.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Lol I got more level 50 Blasters than anything else, crumbs wasn't expecting that XD
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Blasters are one of the more popular characters created, making it quite common to see them. However, they have a high rate of abandonment as level increases, and they were found in the recent past to underperform all other ATs in terms of leveling rate as measured by the devs, whether solo or teamed, and regardless of powersets.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Definitely. Not everyone is interested in micromanaging a build-up bar or watching gimmick stacks build up. My main is an Inv/SS Tank but even having to pay attention to Rage kind of bugs me. I just want to smash stuff.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
But it's not a point, it's just your own preference. Several others in other threads have expressed their preference that they like having a no-frills self-sufficient damage dealer available to them. Each preference has equal validity.
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Blasters share the same role as Stalker, Scrappers, Brutes, & Dominators. That is primary damage. Blasters are iconic in Comic Books and so as UberGuy mentions they are started in high numbers. But they get abandoned because they are substantially weaker than any of the melee damage ATs. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
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I made this argument prior to the last round of Stalker buffs. I was pooh poohed away by Stalker players. I understand why. They wanted their buff, and Blaster players can ask for their own buffs. So they got buffed. I will lol at anyone who tries to say (or write) without irony that it's fair that the melee ATs both do more damage and are more durable than Blasters. But for the most part that's the situation.
That the devs buffed any of the melee ATs suggests to me that balance is at most a consideration, but not outcome determinative of whether an AT needs a buff. It's more perception than anything else as best as I can see. If an AT is underrepresented then it must need buffs.
I think that's insanity. Given where we are now, I think the Blaster AT should be rebuilt from the ground up.
As for the melee ATs, if we're going to have four of them then there needs to be something interesting and special about all of them. Scrappers are plenty powerful. I've said that plenty of times. But they are beyond vanilla. It's like going into an ice cream shop. Stalkers are like a sundae with nuts, whipped cream, cherries, and sprinkles. Brutes are like a banana split, tasty and there's even something healthy underneath all that junk food. Scrappers are vanilla ice cream. Very tasty, fulfilling, but it's just the base.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If you really think what we have now is balance where you have four nigh-immortal melee ATs and a ranged AT which specialty is dying, then I have some lakefront property in North Africa to sell you.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
At no point did Stalkers get buffed because Stalker players wanted a buff. That is not and has never been the sole impetus for a change, and I'm frankly shocked that you think it is. The devs have to agree that a change is warranted, and all the devs care about is game balance.
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People say balance like it means something in this game. This is a game where the power level is so far above the environment that we're lucky the environment doesn't have an advocate.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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If that's what you got from a post which explicitly mentions the problems with Blasters, then I think we're done here.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If you really think what we have now is balance where you have four nigh-immortal melee ATs and a ranged AT which specialty is dying, then I have some lakefront property in North Africa to sell you.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I can agree that something isn't there when it comes to Blasters but putting a finger on it exactly is what I hope Arcanaville will do, after having datamined everyone.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Scrappers don't think and analyze. They see it, therefore it must die.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
To each his own, but I love that power. When I was playing my Bane, I would run around using it on random stuff. That said, I'm open to anything so long as:
1) it doesn't increase Scrapper offense or defense; at least their solo performance 2) it is unique in the sense that no other AT has it. Powers that a particular power set has is cool (hence the Surveillance request) |
Scrappers should be able to summon a pet lizard. The lizard would generate a taunt aura that would attract underlings. This would allow the scrappers to kill the important things without distraction.
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If Scrappers are vanilla ice cream, then Brutes are a cookie dough blizzard. But I don't think that means Scrappers need something different sprinkled into them. Some people would rather just have ice cream. Particularly when its extremely good ice cream. Rolling the top in M&Ms doesn't make them equal to Brutes, it just makes them distasteful to people who hate M&Ms.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
As for the melee ATs, if we're going to have four of them then there needs to be something interesting and special about all of them. Scrappers are plenty powerful. I've said that plenty of times. But they are beyond vanilla. It's like going into an ice cream shop. Stalkers are like a sundae with nuts, whipped cream, cherries, and sprinkles. Brutes are like a banana split, tasty and there's even something healthy underneath all that junk food. Scrappers are vanilla ice cream. Very tasty, fulfilling, but it's just the base.
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Personally, I like Mint Chip. Which is doubly bad for throwing extra junk into. I picked a mint primary and a chocolate chip secondary, and now I'm done. If I wanted Fury or Gauntlet, I would go to Cold Stone.
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Arcana- I have to call you on this. Your post contains about 35% too much deliciousness. I have to have some mint chocolate chip ice cream... NAO!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If Scrappers are vanilla ice cream, then Brutes are a cookie dough blizzard. But I don't think that means Scrappers need something different sprinkled into them. Some people would rather just have ice cream. Particularly when its extremely good ice cream. Rolling the top in M&Ms doesn't make them equal to Brutes, it just makes them distasteful to people who hate M&Ms.
Personally, I like Mint Chip. Which is doubly bad for throwing extra junk into. I picked a mint primary and a chocolate chip secondary, and now I'm done. If I wanted Fury or Gauntlet, I would go to Cold Stone. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Scrappers 'inherent' is that it is good out of the box. It is sturdy and hits hard without having to rely on tricks, buffs, or other players (even though those things can make it sturdier and hit harder).
If I recall the original game manual, scrappers were described as the best soloists. While the game has evolved a lot since then and just about anything can steamroll a map set for /x8 once it has a good IO build and incarnate powers. But as you level up few tankers can get close to scrapper damage, brutes need to build up and maintain fury to keep up, and while stalkers may take down a group of 2 or 3 faster than a scrapper they fall behind scrappers in eliminating really large groups.
Do scrappers need a buff? Objectively, I see no evidence that they do. Perhaps a power here or there. Certainly some more power proliferation would be nice.
But EvilGeko wants one dammit!
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Were Stalkers able to solo as effectively as Brutes/Scrappers(/Tankers)?
Were they able to perform as well as Brutes/Scrappers in their team role of damage, when considering their (Normal) lack of AoE and decreased survivability? If your answer is "yes" to either one, you're lying. |
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| =/= Logic? |
You could have just as easily made a Tanker or Scrapper that couldn't solo effectively as you could a Stalker that couldn't solo and vice versa. Or, to state it plainly, if you couldn't make a Stalker solo well, most likely you'd screw up Tanker solo, Blaster solo, Dominator solo and Scrapper solo.
None of those are straight forward solo ATs, not even the Scrapper (unless you specifically build them for mitigation and/or set the difficulty to its lowest). Conversely, a Stalker could relatively easily solo anything. If a mission is truly truly hard, a Stalker can do something those other guys can't do: hit and run.
It ain't fast, but who cares? You're solo and the foe is handing your rear to you.
As for AoE on teams, I'll point you to Martial Arts, Energy Melee and Dark Melee on Scraps, Tanks and Brutes (surprise surprise, those are the same sets that have weak AoE on Stalkers too!). A DM or EM character is going to be weak in AoE, so what? A Spines or Elec Stalker will be great in AoE, so what?
You've lost any logic foothold you imagined you had.
Actually, I agree with Reppu here. Stalkers needed a buff, Stalkers got a buff. Said buff did nothing to harm any other AT, and merely helped one that was struggling. It seems to me that no one should be complaining here. But, of course, people must complain, for if a thread was made and everyone agreed... my god, what would become of the world?
Everyone is pointing out AoEs- But there is not one set, not one, where stalker has more. However,t here are plenty where it has less, as it should due to being single target focused. However, it did less single target than a Scrapper. Scrappers could make just as good a single target chain, but do better damage since they had a higher modifier. Now Stalkers actually get the highest ST DPS and everyone whines.
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The only flaw I see here is that most of us are not calling for a buff in scrapper dps. I am cool with stalker having higher st dps. |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Actually, I agree with Reppu here. Stalkers needed a buff, Stalkers got a buff. Said buff did nothing to harm any other AT, and merely helped one that was struggling. It seems to me that no one should be complaining here. But, of course, people must complain, for if a thread was made and everyone agreed... my god, what would become of the world?
Everyone is pointing out AoEs- But there is not one set, not one, where stalker has more. However,t here are plenty where it has less, as it should due to being single target focused. However, it did less single target than a Scrapper. Scrappers could make just as good a single target chain, but do better damage since they had a higher modifier. Now Stalkers actually get the highest ST DPS and everyone whines. |
Shoot, all I want is more end, Conserve Changed to Superior Conditioning in Body (or added), and more of what is requested for power proliferation Hint: Ice, EM, SS, Nin.
Any of the above would make me jump for joy.
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My dear, you just committed one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is never get involved in a land war in Asia. But another is that you don't get into an analogy war with the EvilGeko.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Personally, I like Mint Chip. Which is doubly bad for throwing extra junk into. I picked a mint primary and a chocolate chip secondary, and now I'm done. If I wanted Fury or Gauntlet, I would go to Cold Stone.
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Because Mint Chip ice cream is delicious all by itself it's true, but since my wife and one of my sons love it to death, I have come to find out that even Mint Chip with more chocolate sauce and whipped cream is better.
And Scrappers are dandy, but a bit more dandy wouldn't hurt.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Stalkers could solo fine and contribute to groups. If they were hurting there, then your point might be sound. But pull away the flowery language and Stalkers wanted a buff...because they wanted a buff.
For years, I argued that ethos (alignment) has no relevant to what powers a being has and that all ATs should be allowed on all sides. There was no end to the parade of horribles that folks said would befoul the game should this come to pass. Well, it did. Nothing happened...oh except people had more fun.
Long ago, I fought tooth and nail with Statesman and folks on these boards about why real numbers are needed and would not hurt the game. Again it was said that the game would literally cease to exist should this come to pass.
I have about ten more examples off the top of my head. People argue here because this is an internet forum. If Scrappers got a buff, especially an ally enhancing buff, it would have exactly zero negative effects on the game. Many of these same people pushing back would simply go silent or even praise the change. This is why I both appreciate, but ultimately don't worry most folks negative feedback.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.